A child born without a brain?

[Azadre]

My friend and I were debating abortion. I told him my guidelines on what it would take before I could support it being banned.

Here are my guidelines:

1.)At what point does the fetus gain pain receptors
2.)At what point does the fetus gain the ability to survive on external energy sources
3.)Can the soul be scientifically proven
4.)At what point does the soul enter the body
5.)What would the punishment be to those who commit an abortion

His answers were similar to this

2.)A fetus can survive without a mother at the start and they just grow them outside the uterus for the first 6 months and they did this using test tubes.

and he also tried to say this child was born without a brain, on cerebral fluid. He also had the brain stem. He said the child was born brain dead, and after a 3 week coma, it had a fully developed brain.

Anyone care to provide evidence for his reponses because they sound more like urban legend than science.

 

[Tassadar]

2.)A fetus can survive without a mother at the start and they just grow them outside the uterus for the first 6 months and they did this using test tubes.

Usualy they insiminate in test tube and then implement the egg into a women uterus.

I dont beleive there is an artificial uterus, not for the first few month. There is incubator if the babay is already formed but too weak ( pre-mature).


Usualy a women can easily know if she is pregnent within a month, and within a month it is only an egg. An egg is not a chicken.

 

[Azadre]

Usualy they insiminate in test tube and then implement the egg into a women uterus.

I dont beleive there is an artificial uterus, not for the first few month. There is incubator if the babay is already formed but too weak ( pre-mature).


Usualy a women can easily know if she is pregnent within a month, and within a month it is only an egg. An egg is not a chicken.

He was saying the fetus would be able to survive without a fetus. I still think it's bluff.

 

[Shadylookin]

He was saying the fetus would be able to survive without a fetus. I still think it's bluff.

it's called anencephaly and it is born without large parts of the brain(but not entirely without it) and dies within a few days at the most. It is impossible for them to ever become conscious let alone sentient.

 

[Longasc]

I know one who got elected for president!

Maybe even re-elected, who knows!

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[Halcyon]

1 - Not sure, but I don't see why it'd matter. They're part of the skin, so if the skin's fully developed they'll be there. Damage to the nervous system is also felt as pain, mind.
2 - Pretty late, actually. Earlier if you call life-support an external energy source, though premature babies born before the skin is fully developed are unlikely to survive. His answer is nonsense. Ancephalic babies always die. The effect can be reproduced by a technique known as 'beheading'. Anencephalic babies lack most of the forebrain and are incapable of, well, anything. Then there's hydraencephaly, where the entire brain other than the cerebellum downwards is absent, replaced by bags of cerebrospinal fluid. God's will, apparently. Almost all of those die at or before birth, and few people bother to keep such things alive even if they do survive that long.
3 - You'd have to say what to look for, first. People seem rather vague on what a soul actually is, varying from the absolute self to some sort of heaven-entry coin that has to be shiny when you hand it in.
4 - See 3. Depends heavily on what you think it is, and whether you believe in reincarnation. If it's the absolute self and you don't believe in reincarnation, then it can't possibly enter anything and has to develop from scratch. If it's the magic coin, who knows? If you believe in reincarnation, who cares? If other, whatever.

 

[Perfection]

\2.)A fetus can survive without a mother at the start and they just grow them outside the uterus for the first 6 months and they did this using test tubes.

That's just wrong. There's no substitute for the mother's placenta.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

An embryo can be grown to a few dosens of cells then it needs an uterus.

 

[Azadre]

1 - Not sure, but I don't see why it'd matter. They're part of the skin, so if the skin's fully developed they'll be there. Damage to the nervous system is also felt as pain, mind.
2 - Pretty late, actually. Earlier if you call life-support an external energy source, though premature babies born before the skin is fully developed are unlikely to survive. His answer is nonsense. Ancephalic babies always die. The effect can be reproduced by a technique known as 'beheading'. Anencephalic babies lack most of the forebrain and are incapable of, well, anything. Then there's hydraencephaly, where the entire brain other than the cerebellum downwards is absent, replaced by bags of cerebrospinal fluid. God's will, apparently. Almost all of those die at or before birth, and few people bother to keep such things alive even if they do survive that long.
3 - You'd have to say what to look for, first. People seem rather vague on what a soul actually is, varying from the absolute self to some sort of heaven-entry coin that has to be shiny when you hand it in.
4 - See 3. Depends heavily on what you think it is, and whether you believe in reincarnation. If it's the absolute self and you don't believe in reincarnation, then it can't possibly enter anything and has to develop from scratch. If it's the magic coin, who knows? If you believe in reincarnation, who cares? If other, whatever.

1. It matters because I would not support the abortion of a fetus if the last moments of the abortion are pain. That's inhumane. If the pain receptors are not active or not there, then the fetus feels no pain and it is fair in my book. If you stuck a knife in your brain, the pain would not be there because pain is only a chemical reaction.
2. If it is pretty late, then that is the point for which the child can be either removed from the mother and made to survive without its mothers blood. That is an important thing, once it is an independent being physically is when it deserves the same recognition as anything else.
3 and 4. Answers to those would give Abrahamic religion followers an argument. Without 1 or 2 being true, points 3 and 4 would not matter unless they can be proven scientifically.

So, it's a safe assumption to say my friend is an idiot when it comes to life biology?

 

[Halcyon]

Pretty much, yeah.

I would argue that pain isn't of major importance. There are plenty of ways to kill people without causing the slightest pain, but I'd still consider doing so to be inconsiderate at best. As you say, the brain itself is incapable of feeling pain. Hence why it's possible to perform brain surgery on a local anaesthetic, with the patient awake. Humane treatment is simply trying to inflict the minimal possible pain in a situation, rather than avoid painful situations entirely. If a vet has to put a dog down, it's more humane to shoot it in the back of the head than disembowel it. However, it still dies.

Pain, while we're at it, is the brain's interpretation of "something damaged over here" nervous signals. No brain, no pain. Everything with a working nervous system feels pain, however. A better answer to that question would thus be: when the part of the brain which processes pain is sufficiently developed to be functional. As for when that is, I couldn't say.

 

[cgannon64]

I imagine an aritificial uterus is possible to create, but we just haven't done it yet.

 

[stormbind]

Nobody can provide evidence for a baby born without a brain. That's just ludicrous. Here's some better answers though...

1.)At what point does the fetus gain pain receptors

Almost immediately. Small animals can have pain receptors too.

2.)At what point does the fetus gain the ability to survive on external energy sources.

Every animal is dependent on it's own environment. I would like to see you survive outside the bubble that is Earth's atmosphere.

3.)Can the soul be scientifically proven

Is the answer relevant to whether or not you deserve to live?

4.)At what point does the soul enter the body

Are you intentionally trying to keep this debate open ended?

5.)What would the punishment be to those who commit an abortion

Forcefully prohibited from ever again getting pregnant.

 

[GenMarshall]

5.)What would the punishment be to those who commit an abortion

Forcefully prohibited from ever again getting pregnant.

I would have to disagree with you on not alowing women who had an abortion at some point in there lives to become pregnant. What if she meats the right persion and decides to have children.

I dont think we should forcefully prohibit women from gettting pregnent once they had an abortion.

Though this is comming from a persion who is Pro-Choice.

 

[Azadre]

1.)At what point does the fetus gain pain receptors

Almost immediately. Small animals can have pain receptors too.

Brain Stem isn't even developed, so how does pain work?


2.)At what point does the fetus gain the ability to survive on external energy sources.

Every animal is dependent on it's own environment. I would like to see you survive outside the bubble that is Earth's atmosphere.

I am refering the point when the fetus gains the ability to become an independent being in the Earth environment, where the parents' would be able to survive.