So the same applys to Bill Clinton ?
A draft dodger ?
- Thread starter otago
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So the same applys to Bill Clinton ?
Verge
Let's hug it out
I actually find it pretty disappointing that people often have to focus on what a politician didn't do in his or her life instead of discussing what he or she did do.
Mitt Romney is someone who has done quite a lot thus far in his lifetime, and those actions should provide plenty of material for supporters and critics to praise and disparage respectively. To complain that he didn't serve in the military just seems like such an unimaginative and trivial objection to the man considering that there is a long list of political beliefs and policy positions Romney critics could use to craft substantive criticism.
Mitt Romney is someone who has done quite a lot thus far in his lifetime, and those actions should provide plenty of material for supporters and critics to praise and disparage respectively. To complain that he didn't serve in the military just seems like such an unimaginative and trivial objection to the man considering that there is a long list of political beliefs and policy positions Romney critics could use to craft substantive criticism.
Irish Caesar
Yellow Jacket
A lot of people don't like the guy, but that's one of the reasons that doesn't get cited much.
Shall I rephrase my statement for Democrats?
I think that people admire those such as Sen. Webb who have honorable service, but we can't really fault Pres. Clinton too badly for not having served.
Substitute Sen. Cleland for Webb if you think having served in Pres. Reagan's Administration makes him less of a Democrat.
Fugitive Sisyphus
Escape Artist
Of course Clinton's first presidential campaign started 16 years closer to Vietnam than Romney's and he ran against a war hero in George H.W. Bush whereas Romney wont have that problem if he makes it to the general election and McCain won't/hasn't made an issue out of it.
Patroklos
Deity
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I don't think anyone has a problem with people who didn't serve, but those who violated the law and thus their duty by not serving (ie draft dodging). That is wha the OP is accusing Romney of, not simply not serving.
Military service in my opinion is a boon to any candidate, but hardly the only area of expertise a presidental candidate should have some knowledge in. And lets not kid ourselves, each candidate is not going to have a mastery of every skill a president requires. So if you haven't served, but have other qualities that qualify you, you still could be a good candidate in my book.
Military service in my opinion is a boon to any candidate, but hardly the only area of expertise a presidental candidate should have some knowledge in. And lets not kid ourselves, each candidate is not going to have a mastery of every skill a president requires. So if you haven't served, but have other qualities that qualify you, you still could be a good candidate in my book.
EnlightenmentHK
Emperor
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Bush was according to the spirit and intent of the phrase, a draft dodger. He was running against a war hero. ('04) And much of the campaign became about the malicious smearing of the 'hero's' war record. (Typically with fabricated BS coming from surprisingly well funded and organized 'independent' organizations)
Draft dodging matters. But not if you're a Republican. Because they talk tough and thump their chests alot, Republicans get a pass on things that most Democrats would be skewered for.
And door to door proselytizing is annoying no matter who is doing it. I don't care if they think they're saving souls. I don't care that they're not paid and are doing it out of sheer enthusiastic fanaticism alone. A volunteer telemarketer is still a d*mned telemarketer. And everyone fricken hates telemarketers. The same thing applies to door-to-door salesmen. Whether they're selling soap or salvation, everyone simply wishes they'd just quit fricken knocking.
Draft dodging matters. But not if you're a Republican. Because they talk tough and thump their chests alot, Republicans get a pass on things that most Democrats would be skewered for.
And door to door proselytizing is annoying no matter who is doing it. I don't care if they think they're saving souls. I don't care that they're not paid and are doing it out of sheer enthusiastic fanaticism alone. A volunteer telemarketer is still a d*mned telemarketer. And everyone fricken hates telemarketers. The same thing applies to door-to-door salesmen. Whether they're selling soap or salvation, everyone simply wishes they'd just quit fricken knocking.
Ecofarm
Deity
Kerry is a war shame, not hero.
He wrote his own purple hearts, for scratches, so that he could leave his fellow countrymen behind early.
He got a silver star (no valor) for shooting some guy who had an rpg in the back. In case you don't know, you cannot shoot a person with an rpg. It's nowhere near accurate enough. He was in no danger, and the enemy was fleeing.
Anyway, 3 fake purple hearts and a silver (without a V) does not a "war hero" make.
Considering his cowardice at writing those purples for himself, and his actions/speeches after the war (inventing stories of war crimes for political purpose), I consider him a disgrace to the uniform. I would have a higher opinion of him if he dodged.
He wrote his own purple hearts, for scratches, so that he could leave his fellow countrymen behind early.
He got a silver star (no valor) for shooting some guy who had an rpg in the back. In case you don't know, you cannot shoot a person with an rpg. It's nowhere near accurate enough. He was in no danger, and the enemy was fleeing.
Anyway, 3 fake purple hearts and a silver (without a V) does not a "war hero" make.
Considering his cowardice at writing those purples for himself, and his actions/speeches after the war (inventing stories of war crimes for political purpose), I consider him a disgrace to the uniform. I would have a higher opinion of him if he dodged.
EnlightenmentHK
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Eco that's ridiculously absurd propaganda shamelessly fabricated by the Republican funded 'Swiftboaters for smear campaigns' organization.
And this is also exactly what I'm talking about. What does it matter? Everything you say could be true and 10 times worse....BUT HE WAS FRICKEN THERE!!! He wasn't some desk clerk. He didn't use his daddy's connections to avoid the war. He actually fought for his country and he gets lynched by mindless Republican attack dogs for it. Bush spends the war years in the military equivalent of Club Med and he gets a pass.
Anyone who attacks Kerry's service record while not simultaneously (and much more viciously) attacking Bush's is too big of a hypocrite to be taken seriously. Ever. On any subject. Should be instantly dismissed the second they open their mouths or post on a message board.
And this is also exactly what I'm talking about. What does it matter? Everything you say could be true and 10 times worse....BUT HE WAS FRICKEN THERE!!! He wasn't some desk clerk. He didn't use his daddy's connections to avoid the war. He actually fought for his country and he gets lynched by mindless Republican attack dogs for it. Bush spends the war years in the military equivalent of Club Med and he gets a pass.
Anyone who attacks Kerry's service record while not simultaneously (and much more viciously) attacking Bush's is too big of a hypocrite to be taken seriously. Ever. On any subject. Should be instantly dismissed the second they open their mouths or post on a message board.
Am I the only one that honestly doesn't care what Romney was doing 35 years ago?
How many times must we refight the Vietnam War?
How many times must we refight the Vietnam War?
Ecofarm
Deity
I already called Bush Jr. a draft dodger, in this thread, in case you missed it. Not that I see a need to mention his national guard flight school/bar visiting in the same conversation as yellow coward Kerry. What makes you think that Kerry cannot be criticised without mentioning Bush? What a rediculas expectation.
As far as Kerry goes, everything I said was true. Deny it all you want:
He wrote his own purple hearts, THREE of them, for scratches, knowing (and outright planning) that 3 purples meant early end of tour.
He got his silver (no V) for BS.
Upon early release, he bad mouthed the US military for his own personal political benefit.
Do I really need to add links to prove this?
How you can call anyone a war hero when their silver has no V is beyond me anyway. Quit sensationalizing. Seriously, if you are going to hero worship, you're going to have to do better than Kerry or you will spend your entire life being laughed at.
Me, nor any military man I know, have any respect for Kerry's service. His actions after service are perhaps the most disgraceful in American History. The only people I meet who are unaware of what a piece of garbage (militarily) he was are moveon.orgers and airamericers (Randy Rhodes fans in particular, as Kerry-War-Hero was a mantra of hers, for years). I have never met a vet with respect for Kerry's service or after action reports. We generally consider him to have stabbed himself in the foot (to get out of nam) and then stabbed us in the back. We wish he never served. And you want to call him a war hero? What a joke. Any of us would gladly give our left nut if McCain asked. None of us would spit on Kerry if he begged. And it has nothing to do with politics... just military records and after service actions. Just because he showed up for nam doesn't mean crap. When he got there he was an abandoning coward and when he left he was a backstabber.
To compare him to McCain is disgusting. McCain did an extra 5 years (of hell, not just war), out of respect for his men. Kerry beelined bogus purples to abandon his men (and then backstabbed them).
You may not tell others that your way is right, but you sure don't seem to have many qualms telling others that their way is wrong...
If the biggest bummer in your day was a friendly bloke wanting to save your soul who would politely dismiss himself at your slightest gesture...
It was a good day
Never been approached by Mormons, but I once had a pleasant conversation with Jehovah's Witnesses. It was a hot day so I offered them some orange juice. I obviously wasn't converted, but I found them to be rather pleasant, although brief, company.
Zardnaar
Deity
I think the Mormon religion is a load of crock but the missionaries I've met have all been nice people and genuine in their beliefs. As I said their beliefs are odd and I tried reading the book of Mormon but gave up (its really boring).
Kerry was indeed scary as a candidate, if just because everything about him was very mysterious and he wasnt good at clarifying anything.
as far as the actual issue of the thread, Romney hardly qualifies as a dodger. and even if his mission was used as a "get out of draft free card", which it wasnt, having a religious purpose for not going to war, draft or not, should be acceptable in america. its not an accurate comparison, but would one fault the amish for being exempt?
and dont even get me started on the vietnam war. in my opinion conscription should be a SECURITY measure. nam was hardly a national emergency until we declared war.
as far as the actual issue of the thread, Romney hardly qualifies as a dodger. and even if his mission was used as a "get out of draft free card", which it wasnt, having a religious purpose for not going to war, draft or not, should be acceptable in america. its not an accurate comparison, but would one fault the amish for being exempt?
and dont even get me started on the vietnam war. in my opinion conscription should be a SECURITY measure. nam was hardly a national emergency until we declared war.
Not possible for someone to be hit by a RPG, you
are wrong.
So you would not shoot someone in the back who
was running away armed with an RPG.
I would, for one damn good reason, why was he
hanging on to the RPG, for fun ?
Welcome to the real world
I do wonder about the American award system,
McCarthur got the MOH for what ?
Ecofarm
Deity
I'm not saying I would not have shot him. I'm saying that I would not have expected a freakn silver for it.
As far as hitting someone with an RPG... I've fired several real (American) RPGs (AT-4s, Law Rockets). I've also seen SF guys fire (non-american) RPGs. It's difficult enough to hit a vehicle at 50 yards. You're not shooting a person with it. That's rediculas. The missile/rocket is +/- 5 feet left/right almost the moment it leaves the housing. Sure, they can explode and kill you, but you are not getting "shot" by one. Of course, I could put a TOW missile on your head at 3km but that's a different beast. A single individual with an RPG has little to no chance of hitting anything with it. If I could choose the weapon someone must use against me in a duel, it would be a toss-up between an RPG and a sharpened stone.
As far as hitting someone with an RPG... I've fired several real (American) RPGs (AT-4s, Law Rockets). I've also seen SF guys fire (non-american) RPGs. It's difficult enough to hit a vehicle at 50 yards. You're not shooting a person with it. That's rediculas. The missile/rocket is +/- 5 feet left/right almost the moment it leaves the housing. Sure, they can explode and kill you, but you are not getting "shot" by one. Of course, I could put a TOW missile on your head at 3km but that's a different beast. A single individual with an RPG has little to no chance of hitting anything with it. If I could choose the weapon someone must use against me in a duel, it would be a toss-up between an RPG and a sharpened stone.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
As we have lost more than a few helicopters that have been nailed with RPGs in Iraq and Afghanistan, I am going to simply have to disagree with you that RPGs are wildly innacurate. They get the job done for the job they are designed to do.
As for someone hitting a person with one - anythings possible. I have seen stranger things happen in my life.
Ecofarm
Deity
Mobboss, dozens of RPGs are fired before one hits a bird. It's not like they are sniping with them. It's a matter of numbers. You can disagree with me all you want, but I've seen a few RPGs fired by SF, and I've fired a few of the American versions. And you're ignoring the number fired before a hit.
As far as hitting a person with one... "anything's possible"? That's your counter-point? I expect better from you.
As far as hitting a person with one... "anything's possible"? That's your counter-point? I expect better from you.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Which merely indicates that yes...you could hit someone in the back with an RPG.
But the CSM of the JAG Corps got killed in a helicopter hit by an RPG. One shot, not dozens. As in all things, if you have enough experience in shooting them, you can get pretty good at it. Or you may just get lucky.
Either way, I could care less as to the why and how Kerry got his medals. What the man did with them (ie. toss them away) and his testimony after he came home is what is truly unforgivable.
EDIT: As to the accuracy of a common RPG-7, here is the description: http://www.defense-update.com/products/r/rpg.htm
The point being these weapons are as common as they are because they are easy to use and very effective for what they do. If they were so inaccurate as to require 'dozens' of shots before scoring a hit, you wouldnt see them being used.
Ecofarm
Deity
They are used despite being inaccurate because they are cheap and can be purchased by the dozen. Ask anyone. Scoring a hit with an RPG is lucky. Scoring a hit on an individual is next to impossible.
It's pretty irrelevant anyway.
He shot a single enemy in the back and got a silver. He recieved 3 scratches, wrote 3 purples for himself, and abandoned his men. Then he backstabbed them. War hero?
I just hope EnlightenmentHK stops taking Randy Rhodes' Air America mantra as fact. If I had a nickel for every time she called Kerry a war hero... Of course, she would never mention Kerry's record without mentioning Bush's. Maybe that's where he got the idea that it is obligatory.
It's pretty irrelevant anyway.
He shot a single enemy in the back and got a silver. He recieved 3 scratches, wrote 3 purples for himself, and abandoned his men. Then he backstabbed them. War hero?
I just hope EnlightenmentHK stops taking Randy Rhodes' Air America mantra as fact. If I had a nickel for every time she called Kerry a war hero... Of course, she would never mention Kerry's record without mentioning Bush's. Maybe that's where he got the idea that it is obligatory.
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