Only a small point Elrohir, but I'll bet that far more women who are raped and fall pregnant as a result don't report it to police or their doctors or anything like that, in case people find out and decide that they're just lying about it in order to not be seen as sluts (among many other reasons)...
A fetus has no "right to life" if it is the product of rape.
- Thread starter LucyDuke
- Start date
I doubt it. These days, if you publicly even insinuate that the poor woman wasn't really raped, then you're a heartless woman hating pig who should be shunned by all polite society. After all, women don't lie about rape.
Tell that to Roe. I think she missed the memo.
LucyDuke
staring at the clock
Don't misinterpret my mention of evangelicals. I'm not trying to imply that everyone who calls themeselves "pro-life" is an evangelical, just touching on the fact that a huge proportion of evangelicals oppose abortion.
Well, at least you're consistent.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
The world is not black & white; you have to look at these things on a case by case basis.
And it is my opinion that the rights of the woman outrank the rights of the fetus if the fetus is there as a result of the rape.. as well as assuming that the fetus is young enough (another point that is up for debate)
Why just rape? What about the rape makes it different than standard consensual sex, incest, some idiot using the wrong lubricant with the condom, etc?
Why does a woman only gain rights if she is raped?
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Because she did not consent to the potentiality of becoming pregnant during rape; she does that in every other case when she has sex.
Your preconceptions don't jive with reality, unfortunately. A tiny fraction of rapes are reported to police, even fewer getting to courts and convictions. Although you may think woman alleging rape might just be looking for attention or an easy way out, most will be genuine victims and feel shame and disgust and just want to forget about it. I'd like to share your optimism that most alleged rapes never happened, but all studies point to it being the other way round.
It is a sad fact that there are too many women who do cry rape, that is certainly true- possibly a greater proportion than with other serious crimes. But for every one woman who lies about being raped, there are several other victims who stay quiet out of shame and disgust... most likely because of public attitudes similar to yours that result from those sad women who do cry rape and in doing so degrade the true victims.
Tell me something - if the women never report the rapes, and presumably no one ever confesses, and no one is ever charged, how do you know that they took place? How do you know that 90% of rapes are reported instead of a small percentage? You don't, and you are just guessing.
What attitude of mine would be degrading to anyone? I'm not saying women who were raped "deserved" it - I think rape is a vicious crime that should be punished severely. All I'm saying is that not all women who allege rape are telling the truth. Why is that so outrageous? If I said that not all people who says someone burnt down their insured home were telling the truth, no one would care, and everyone would agree with me. I don't see a difference here.
So you think it's ok to murder someone if otherwise, someone would be harmed?
If someone is ruining my life, I have the right to kill them?
NB. I don't believe abortion is murder.
Masquerouge
Deity
It's as outrageous as saying a Holocaust victim is making things up. Usually people do not lie about these kind of things, and you certainly do not want to wrongly accuse someone of lying on these matters.
Don't you think that is a little bit of an absurd comparison? I'm not saying all or even most women who cite rape in getting abortions are lying, I'm just saying it's likely that more than a few do.
As for the Holocaust thing, I'm pretty sure they have indeed caught people claiming to have been in the camps when they weren't, in order to claim property or money which they didn't deserve. I know after Hurricane Katrina a few years back, people went door to door for "donations" to the Red Cross, AKA their wallets. After 9/11, some people went door to door and asked via telephone for money to go to the relatives of those who died in the attack, and not all of them are legit. I think you're underestimating how scummy people can be when it is in their best interests to lie.
Masquerouge
Deity
I'm just saying I could not go up to a woman who says she was raped and tell her she's lying. Some cases automatically deserve the benefit of the doubt.
It would be very different if women were the powerful half of our societies, however.
I never suggested you should; I wouldn't do that unless I have good evidence to suggest she was lying. (And even then, I'd just leave it for the DA to sort it out)
Who says they aren't?
Zarn
Le Républicain Catholique
I have been thinking about this a bit lately, and I've come to the conclusion that rape does not allow abortion. It's hard to take the view, but why should the young being be murdered?
As for life or death scenarios of the mother (don't know if it was mentioned), that is the true gray area. I guess rape would come into the equation again, because if you had to choose between a raped mother and her fetus, who would you choose (given you think they both have the right to life)? That becomes a rather complicated situation.
As for life or death scenarios of the mother (don't know if it was mentioned), that is the true gray area. I guess rape would come into the equation again, because if you had to choose between a raped mother and her fetus, who would you choose (given you think they both have the right to life)? That becomes a rather complicated situation.
I think it's possible to be against abortion, whilst still allowing an exception for rape.
But the confusing bit is those who believe that abortion is wrong because it's "murder of a child". As stated in this thread, I find it odd that these people also believe it's okay to murder children (according to their definition/belief) when it has resulted from rape.
Nor has anyone explained why this logic doesn't apply after birth - I mean, life begins at conception, there's nothing special about birth, isn't that what you tell us?
But the confusing bit is those who believe that abortion is wrong because it's "murder of a child". As stated in this thread, I find it odd that these people also believe it's okay to murder children (according to their definition/belief) when it has resulted from rape.
Nor has anyone explained why this logic doesn't apply after birth - I mean, life begins at conception, there's nothing special about birth, isn't that what you tell us?
Masquerouge
Deity
The last 30,000 years of human history.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
While there is really technically nothing special about birth, and while there is no single point at which the fetus becomes 'human' (it is a gradual process), I hope you will agree that disposting of a 1 week old fetus is a totally different proposition than killing a 20 year old.
Now, you will ask, but where do we draw the line if it can't be drawn at conception? Well, I would say that there isn't a clear-cut line between "abortion is ok" and "it's too late". However, such a line has to be decided upon for legal reasons.
But just because such a line does not exist, doesn't mean that "It's ok to abort if the fetus is young" is an intellectually dishonest position.
Which translates into perhaps up to 30,000 pregnancies per year (based on http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html ).
Actually, that is what you suggested:
In that you say it is "significantly inflated".
If you now admit that this is just a few, then 2% is still going to be in the rough area.
Zarn
Le Républicain Catholique
I forgot to mention this:
What if a woman falsely claims rape?
What if a woman falsely claims rape?
Yes, _I_ think that, but I'm in favour of abortion for any reason.
The point is those people who believe life begins at abortion, and hence think killing a 1 week old fetus is murdering a child - except when it's rape for some unknown reason.
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