A game of Kublai

[BornInCantaloup]

I didn't follow, sorry. I didn't replay the opener either. I ended up trolling / being trolled in Isabella's BOTM.

Lib -> War tech is more traditional, if you already have Astro. (Lib -> Astro is excellent otherwise.)

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup I can't remember where you mentioned it, but you did mention that there could be some merit in trying out enmancipation if one manages to conquer or settle enough land early on..? Or I might just have mixed things up.

I'll likely just continue playing now and aim for either a half-bulb or 2 bulbs into astro, and if I should shoot for lib or not I'll have to look at how far the other AIs are, but it certainly wouldn't hurt.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, I did, indeed. I think : if you took out Isabella and, therefore, didn't have much need for immediate production, then a switch into Emancipation could be good, yes. Given an army of workers.
Emancipation is still a downtime, even in optimal conditions : it takes 35 turns to mature a town. 15 only for a village (already a very good tile).
The important thing is that if you spam cottages down that route : you don't have much growth or prod. So, you need to have done much before.
In my view, those conditions are met when you've taken full control of your continent. Then there's no rush to organize an overseas invasion, so you can re-tool and tech up.

Didn't you manage to meet Monty ? With a sentry unit... I saw you had a chariot.

You know what ? Maybe you can do it but I think you should invade Izzie first. Then you'll have 25 cities, work 250 tiles, etc.

2 bulbs Astro is cute but not necessary if you have a sufficient beaker output. The second bulb might save you 5 turns...
There's no reason not to go for Lib after Astro, right ? Unless you lose the race but...

You should scout NE of your Wheat with a galley/trireme/something. Possibly just unload a swordman and have him explore.

... if you go from Astro to Lib -> Dem, then you're invading Isabella with Macemen, Pikes, X-Bows and Trebs. Which isn't bad. It's slow but the stack is sturdy.
This incurs more losses than a Lib -> war tech, then go Democracy option.
Can she be dead around/before 1000 AD ?
Since you need Constitution, you need Nationalism, and you have marble, you might as well get Military Tradition from Liberalism.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T115-T141 :

T115 I start by trading compass and 80g for polytheism and HBR. I also try to beg for 30g again, but she had not forgotten the last beg yet.

I did not manage to get a sentry chariot (I now realize in hindsight that with a ger+ barracks, I could have gotten one, but...
T117 I settle a city on top of the sugar close to the strait to make contact that way.
T119 Isabella finishes Chichén Itzá. >_<

Then I make contact.
I get a 32 commerce per turn boost from the intercontinental traderoutes with him.
And he also has fur, gold and wine for trade!
I trade compas for monotheism+50g with him too. Bumming my way to monarchy.

I envisioned Monty could be an early target for me, so I did not care much about WFYABTA with him, wanted archery to build HAs to upgrade to cuirs.
Still going optics here although I eventually scrapped the idea of Astro.

It seems I really can't help myself continuing to settle cities. This one hit my economy with straight -11 gpt at 0% slider!
I revolt 2 turns for HR+Caste+OR here. I'm getting my second GSci soon, but the third one would take forever w/o caste system.

I meet Bismarck when he becomes Montys vassal, he seem to be quite badly hurt.

The turn I finish optics the extra vision reveals Gilgamesh galley on Montys coast.
It's only here that I stop to think twice about my march toward astro...
I can get CS basically for free here, and what does even astro give me? Possible trades with other AIs later on? I already have quite a few overseas trade routes and more resources than I can put to good use.

I do the machinery+compass for CS trade with gilgamesh.

After the trade, I instantly start a GA with my saved GSci partly to swap to burocracy w/o anarchy right away, and partly to get out the Gpersons faster and also I start to work quite a few tiles which obviously benefits.

T132 Optics for Aestetics+60g with Monty.
T133 Paper is done and I trade optics for drama+map+30g with Gilgamesh.

I also get my third Gperson, and use him to bulb education, the large population does provide quite a few beakers.
(GScientist bulb is on normal speed 1500 + 3*pop_size beakers)

Last turn of the GA i swap to slavery, I want to whip alot of infrastructure while I still utilize OR.

T139 I trade Philosophy+Paper for Feudalism with Gilgamesh, he was the only one lacking Philosophy and he was going for paper.
Situation after trade:

Isabella is building some prizes for me.

Tech situation 1 turn to lib.

cont...

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T142-T160 :

I stall lib for abit, saw Arabias culture and want to know what he is up to first, debating abit if I should get Astro, but I really lean toward Nationalism so I have a shot at the Taj and can take Isabellas cities with cuirs.
I get some goodies from Gilgamsh to.

I meet Arabia, no competition for lib from him, but then realize that I just gave Gilgamesh access to lib and I dare not stall any more so I just go for it. I pick nationalism and then meet SB who is kind enough to trade his map.
He is extremly behind and severely squeezed by Saladin.

I start Taj right away in capital, still had 2 forests left too, a few turns down the line I spot this:
A massive build in his capital. 5009 (Sabotage Production) divided by 923 (Support city revolt) multiplied with the magical number 108.33 give 588 hammers invested in the build.
This can't be anything but the Taj.

So my capital just have to suck it up. 5 pop bye bye!

I do a last round of OR whipping of buildings, also whipped a pair of missionaries to spread buddhism to a few cities that where significant enough to matter but still lacked it.

Then of to vassalage to get better promoted units, capital is severely injured from the whip so the hit from lack of burocracy is insignificant. Cast+Paci to get a pair of GMerchants for trademissions to upgrade HAs to Cuirs.

Last turn of the GA i cash in nationalism, trading it for guilds with Isabella and... Theology with Saladin.
I wanted theocracy and the GA was wearing of, should have gotten theology way cheaper earlier, but bad planning.

T158 Monty starts plotting, I beg and the fist is still there, I was not his target.
He did swap to free religion with his Shadawgon Playa, so it's possible that it's Gilgamesh in his aim but more likely Isabella who he hates.

Only managed to get one GMerchant in time, the other one I'm getting out slowly with 2scientist+engineer w/o caste, so it takes it's sweet time.

T160
Gunpowder+Lib for PP with Gilgamesh, I also send him to vassalage. If he is the target of monty that will help him.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T161-TXXX Isabella war :

I realize I took way to few wartime screenshots. It was getting late and I was tired. Clearly a way too long turnset with 60+ turns.

The second GMerch was no there in time, so alot of Knights have to help at the start, upgrade as I get access to more cash.

Murcia and Santiago fell quickly, but Salamanca up north had many units and the odds where very bad (39% chance for most cuirs).
I decided to not go full berserker mode but instead to fall back from that meat grinder.
I also then rememberd that she built Itza, so I make a charge through her territory straight for madrid to get that problem out of the way.

She does have gunpowder, but there isn't that many muskets present yet, I thank the rng-gods that all of her cities save Barcelona is on flatland, else this would have been a carnage.
She continues to build wonders too.

Just taking the opportunity to stay in the trading game.
Here I also revolt for two turns, going from slavery->caste, adopting mercantilism (had no foregin trade routes anymore and theo->pacifism in a vain attempt to get more GPersons.
Sometime here I also stop building units and start to let my economy recover.

This was a sweet and unexpected suprise!

Madrid finally falls.
After this follows 12 turns of slowly mopping up. I had lost more units than I expected and stopped building them too soon, so I had to stop and heal much more than I wanted.
I took one ceasefire at a good opportunity, but didn't want to cycle that more as both Gilgamesh and Saladin where pleased with her and constant redeclarations would mess diplo completely.

Just 22 cuirs left of 47. That was bloody.
Up at 25 workers now which is funny.

The kill count is also significant. 22 longbows, 17 pikes, muskets and maces... I thought Isabella was a pushover but that wasn't the case here!

I'll play to T180 to let war unhappines fade of, and make some readjustments then make a T180 situation post.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T180-T184 Peacetime Adjustments :

Was looking through the number of improvements, and apparantly I already have 24 towns.

Overview of the now entierly mongolian continent.

The cities.

And the tech situation. Have fallen a tiny bit behind now.

Wondering if I should wait with revolt until I get free market, or if I should do some adjustments right away. Nice to start a revolt now that all spanish cities are already in revolt.
Free speach is probably better than bureaucracy as it is now.

This is the economy at T179 right after the conquest is over.
594 beakers per turn at -402 gold per turn.

I make some adjustments to makes sure I reach Economics in 2 turns, then start a full scale revolt of 3 turns.
Probably not best, but I want to try out a heavily cottaged empire.
All workers everywhere are busy cottaging up and making some other minor adjustments.

Out of revolt the economy is looking much better.

And with slider at 100%,
928 beakers per turn at -396 gold per turn. (Up from 594 beakers per turn at -402 gold per turn. just a few turns ago.)
Have deleted a few units and started to spread out the cuirs as military police, I don't envision upgrading them to cavalery and trying some invasion at this stage of the game.
Sitting Bull could be a target, and possibly Saladin, but Monty+Gilga I probably need stronger stuff to dent.

So now I'll likely just cruise for a while, maturing cottages, grabbing economic techs and building infrastructure.
Should I set course for space, or nuclear domination?

All doors open I think, how would you handle this situation?

 

[krikav]

Just humming along abit here, T185->T193

Spoiler :

Realized I had +7 happines in my most unhappy city and canceled a few deals, no point making things easier for my rivals!

Finally commited to a tech and ran with steel. It looked as though I could get both astro and replacable parts for it.
I need to get some frigates out too, as I'm being quite harassed by privateers. Can't get my merchants over for a trade mission. (And should I? Perhaps wiser to save him for a GA?)
Got astro, and that was a huge boost of about 100commerce?

Unfortunatly, Gilgamesh was going for steel himself. No RP for me.

Corporations gave another slight boost, so does the cities that finish their courthouses and start building wealth.
Also settling all available filler cities, continuing to work cottages.
1274 beakers per turn at -395, feels rather high, but I'm not in this stage of the game that often that I can make a call.

Will go onwards to biology now, it has good trade value and the food from farms will let me either grow faster or replace even more farms with more cottages.
Still playing rather aimlessly now, I don't really know where I'm going.

 

[cseanny]

It's nice to finally see a Fractal map favor us Humans!! Too often the tables are turned and you end up with a runaway AI with 30 cities who becomes unstoppable. With this map and land you can literally do ANYTHING you want. I vote having a bit of fun and going for NUKES and mass destruction.

 

[krikav]

Yes, the map feels abit cheezy really.
Spawning with a excellent starting position in the middle of a huge continent with a AI thats is possible to handle diplo wise.
Then all other AIs are gridlocked in such a way that they don't explode away. Can't really get much better than this.

 

[Olafeson]

A massive build in his capital. 5009 (Sabotage Production) divided by 923 (Support city revolt) multiplied with the magical number 108.33 give 588 hammers invested in the build.

Oh thats interesting. Would be nice if you could explain this formula. So you can calculate the hammers put into a wonder/building via the necessary spy points to run a sabotage mission?

 

[krikav]

Oh thats interesting. Would be nice if you could explain this formula. So you can calculate the hammers put into a wonder/building via the necessary spy points to run a sabotage mission?

Short answer: @Kaitzilla s guide.
Can answer better tomorrow.

 

[krikav]

@Olafeson
Here is the guide: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-complete-guide-to-espionage.638613/
The relevant section is "3) Knowing what the AI city is producing using 'Sabotage Production' Mission"

This is the short summary:
"
What is the foolproof formula for calculating in a AI City build?
in AI City build = (Sabotage Production / City Revolt) * (650/6)"

For the details, I think it's just best to read the guide.
I don't grasp the details that good myself yet, but I do keep an eye on the cities ever now and then and look for massive builds so that I can deduce if wonders is being built.

 

[krikav]

I tried to come back to this game after a few days but seeing the position from fresh I see how ridiculously overpowered my position is I'm much more tempted to move on to some other game.
Sorry for the anticlimax!

Attaching the save here in case someone wants to fool around from this stage.

 

[sampsa]

You need to go Lain and start looking for really tough starts.

 

[krikav]

You need to go Lain and start looking for really tough starts.

Not quite there yet! (Still fighting those bad habits I guess. )
I do try out most of his starts, but in the majority of cases I get crushed or just find myself completely at a loss at how to gain an edge.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

There's nothing wrong with just trying to get there.
But there's nothing wrong with doing the most of a map either.
If one thinks he has to whip his cities 4->2 to have a valid, interesting game, then that's a ridiculous stance (I understand you didn't mean it like that, sampsa, but I think it's worth saying out loud).
If anything, it's a lot easier to whip 4->2 than it is to develop the stronger late game all while doing the conquering.

The postition you acquired, here, krikav, gives you a lot options. You can think about that Emancipation switch. I don't mean you need to decide on a VC and wrap it up, that's up to you.
I drafted a post for you some days ago in that Emancipation direction. And then I scrapped because... well... I didn't how to make it interesting, perhaps.

I didn't check your save but I can see Corps, there. Yes. I mentioned Wall Street in that post.
You're not too late for this kind of switch (what does too late even mean ?). But the timing of the end of conquest would ideally coincide with... about Liberalism and the setting up of Banks. Sure thing. You cottage it up all, you get Banks up. And Wall Street, and Corps, and buy your resources overseas.
So, Liberalism --> War Tech --> Conquest --> Emancipation switch. That works.
But taking the hit earlier and going for Classical/Medieval warfare is likely a lot stronger. Namely because it lets you develop these new cities a lot earlier, including National Wonder cities. Being able to set up Wall Street in a timely fashion is huge.

It was a close case in your game with Saladdin neighbour (although you didn't finish him early ?).
With a single neighbour on the landmass, you're near an optimal situation for an Emancipation switch.
Again : not needing the production anymore is the primordial factor.

lalala and courthouses are bad... of course you build courthouses everywhere and spend 3/4 of the time in Organized Religion.
When you build wealth, you don't build anything else and then you whip 4-->2 to make up for it.

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup Thanks!

In the NC206 Monty game I did not manage to finish of Saladin early. After a construction breakout I instead started to settle cities wherever I had the chance, I felt that it was the path of least resistance.
It was sort of like how I did play here. I seem to have a tendancy to overprioritize a large amount of cities and settle marginal spots abit too recklessly.
I'm very much intrigued by medieval warfare and must play around with that option more.
The releative lack of production doesn't matter much when you already have a huge land advantage, and you have the safety of our own continent.
I think what makes is less interesting to play out in this Kublai game is that there isn't many challenges left.
If Gilgamesh was instead up at 20 cities and had Monty as a vassal, that would be a totaly different game.

I too am abit put off by the courthouse and building hatred, it does probably have it's place.
If one is after a near 100% winrate, I think that it is a way way safer option to just hold, turtle up and develop your continent, rather than trying for a naval invasion that might or might not be premature.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

It's cool
Scientific Method also holds an interesting place in the whole Emancipation thing.
Like : you can get both Democracy and Levees and Factories without Sci Meth. In some instances (heavy Monastery builds ; with AP and Minaret and Sankore...), delaying Sci Meth and trading Steam Power / Assembly Line for Biology / Communism can be really strong.
Yes @ naval invasion : there's 0 rush if you're holding your continent. It's much better to tech up and sweep than it is to go for a risky war at tech parity.
Ancient war : there isn't always an opportunity but it's the prime way to break a map open. Remember that time Washington only had horses...

On the buildings, I think it's a play-style thing, depends on the player's objectives, too (fastest conquest ?). I like Organized Religion and my shinies more than most. And I'll never tank my economy in a war. I want to sustain my economy, not burst and bust. Sometimes I'll have trouble in a war because I didn't push production enough, however. Or I didn't push it early enough. Or I didn't go for complex great persons plays.