Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Well it would be tanks in the Wolfshanze Mod.
A Great Pirate
- Thread starter Paul666
- Start date
Kiwi Tyrant
Evil Jollification
Cavalry turn into tanks........yet the modern American cavalry are now in Helicopter gunships?! I'm sure they class, or name, them as cavalry.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
It's both in the US Army... there is Armored Cavalry and Cavalry... it can be tanks or helicopters... like the 2nd Armored Cavalry or the 7th Cavalry (which has both tanks and choppers).
Actually, the Wolfshanze Mod allows Cavalry to upgrade to tanks or gunships... been that way for a long time... I think it's crazy default Civ4 doesn't allow cavalry to upgrade to tanks.
Another little historic detail that could be added to CIV would be to outlaw privateers by vote?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privateer
During the War of 1812, the British attacked Essex, Connecticut, and burned the ships in the harbor, due to the construction of a number of privateers. The greatest financial loss of the entire War of 1812 suffered by the Americans. The US was not one of the initial signatories of 1856 Declaration of Paris, which outlawed privateering. However, the USA did offer to adopt its terms during the American Civil War, when the Confederates commissioned privateers from many nations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privateer
During the War of 1812, the British attacked Essex, Connecticut, and burned the ships in the harbor, due to the construction of a number of privateers. The greatest financial loss of the entire War of 1812 suffered by the Americans. The US was not one of the initial signatories of 1856 Declaration of Paris, which outlawed privateering. However, the USA did offer to adopt its terms during the American Civil War, when the Confederates commissioned privateers from many nations.
TheDS
Regular Riot
Wolf:
Did you also throw in a lot of new techs to get rid of incessant beelining making the new ships irrelevent? I often beeline Railroad, and then Combustion cuz it's right there and the power increase is dramatic.
Did you also throw in a lot of new techs to get rid of incessant beelining making the new ships irrelevent? I often beeline Railroad, and then Combustion cuz it's right there and the power increase is dramatic.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
My goal in the Wolfshanze Mod is to make it a "mod light" to the game... so I haven't dramatically altered the way the game is played from default Civ4... it still plays a lot like default Civ4.
The thing about "beelining" is that you are usually skipping something else to beeline. While Railroads, steel and combustion engines gives you a lot of stuff (navally too), you still need Rifling to go from Ironclads to Pre-Dreadnoughts (or vice-versa if you got Rifling first).
As with just about anything else in the game... you can shorten or lengthen the life-span of just about any unit by beelining certain techs. Some folks complain about the lifespan of Muskets or Cuirassiers for instance... while others may have them for some time... it's all a matter of priorities.
America's Great White Fleet of Pre-Dreadnoughts
As with anything else, the industrial-age naval units can leave you in one "age" for awhile, or you can quickly go through it. Since the naval progression is much more "sensible" then the jump from frigates to WWII destroyers, upgrade costs are usually not that bad, and it would in-fact mirror real history... Ironclad development was fluid and quick from the 1850s through the 1880s, with every ship being launched obsoleting the ship that just came off the dock before it... by the 1890s a standard pattern developed, now-known as the Pre-Dreadnoughts that lasted until the launch of the HMS Dreadnought in 1906 which obsoleted all ships before it... much the same is in the naval progression of the Wolfshanze Mod... you can either quickly go through at least some of the coal-fired naval ages, or (if other events pop-up and you get distracted), you can get stuck in an age for awhile when addressing other priorities... pretty much the same with any Civ4 unit.
In default Civ4, either everybody is in the age of sail or you're in the modern WWII navies... there was no in-between no matter where you were on the tech tree... this also allowed industrial age powers that were fairly ahead of the other civs in most techs to have nothing but parity at sea because everybody was mired in age of sail ships and hadn't quite gotten to WWII naval tech yet... the Wolfshanze Mod changes this, so Industrial powers (of the mid-to-late 1800s equivalent) will have a tech lead at sea over powers still stuck in the age of sail.
I did, however, add ONE TECH to the game, and that is "Air Superiority"... which is a WWII-era flight tech. The original/default "Flight" tech now gives WWI-era aircraft... such as Austria's Albatross biplanes...
Rusty Edge
Deity
Coal is now actually a VALUABLE resource instead of a near after-thought, as any coal-fired navy needs it to survive... and without coal, you can forget having a navy in the industrial age.
You can now enforce your will on the backwards civs still using wood and sail instead of steel and steam... speak softly and carry a big stick with your pre-dreadnoughts and dreadnoughts...
Pre-Dreadnought HMS Canopus
By the time I get steam I normally control my own continent, so rather than build ironclads, I just convert the sailing ships on seafood sentry duty.
The paddle steamers fill another gap.
Your mod is an elegant argument that one can improve both gameplay and historical realism at the same time.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Well, you certainly have the option of building various sea-worthy ironclads and pre-dreadnoughts in the industrial era that you would have otherwise been forced to choose between wood and sail ships or coastal ironclads in my mod.By the time I get steam I normally control my own continent, so rather than build ironclads, I just convert the sailing ships on seafood sentry duty.
The paddle steamers fill another gap.
Your mod is an elegant argument that one can improve both gameplay and historical realism at the same time.
I don't know why, but there seems to be some people that are obsessed with the thought that you always have to sacrifice realism for gameplay and that it's impossible to do both at the same time... certainly there are cases where one has to give-in to the other, but it's never always the case, and shouldn't be in this aspect of coal-fired navies either... Firaxis left plenty of room, both in strength points and in available techs to reasonably cover the coal fired naval age... they just left it completely empty!
My main point (besides adding some realism and more in-game options) was so that an industrial age power (whether it be AI or Human) who has a tech lead over the other civs could also rule the waves with ocean going ironclads over canvas and wood sailing ships... without this mod (or something like it), even if a civ holds a clear technological advantage, it cannot enforce it on the waves, because in default Civ4, everybody has frigates and SotL forever, until (magically), WWII Destroyers show up on the scene. This allows an industrial power to outmatch his opponents at sea with ocean going ironclads... and if they catch up to him on that, he can step it up to pre-dreadnoughts, and yet again, to full-fledged dreadnoughts... in other words, you can have naval arms races in the industrial age, just like happened in real life... and it all works very well with the game system of Civ4... default WWII destroyers and battleships are still going to trump all these older ships, but these new industrial age ships trump the sailing ships before them and each other.
Anyways, I was very happy with how the system turned-out and how it fits in-game... any of my negative comments are from those that have never actually tried the mod, just read about it... as everyone who has played the mod all comment how well the naval system works, how it blends seamlessly into the game, and how well the AI takes advantage of the new units as well as the human can/will.
In a worst case scenario... if you don't need the ships, or find yourself moving through the tech tree so fast your head is spinning, then it's no different then playing default civ4... you can still jump magically from frigates to destroyers if you so desire at the same points in the tech tree... just don't expect the AI to completely ignore industrial age navies if you choose to do so!
ICNP
The Third Superpower
It's one thing to GG a Naval unit but a Privateer? That's near crazy talk as trying to keep effective as he gets harped by a stack of frigates is crazy. Oh yeah I hate those huge stacks of Caravels the AI builds. Although I've used Privateers on AI that is still pre-Caravels... I'll have to find the screenie of the 70 triremes that the AI thought it needed to take down my little Privateer.
Rusty Edge
Deity
I think that any time you attach a GG to a unit, it's more for fun than for max benefit. I figure that if my privateers are piling up enough points to give me a
Great General, I can name him Francis Drake or Henry Morgan or something, attach him to a privateer, and station him beyond territorial waters as a super medic to repair the fleet at sea and engage targets of opportunity.
Usually I find that once the enemy caravel hordes have full airship support, or when my vassal's frigates enter the fray against me, maintaining a blockade becomes tiresome. At that point I've already had my fun and fortune . I've tried gifting the privateers to my vassal, only to find them used against me a couple of turns later. I know because my vassal didn't rename my ships. Sometimes I mothball the privateers in a coastal fortress until they can become destroyers . Sometimes another war will break out before then, and I'll get to use them. Sometimes I promote my seafood sentries to ironclads - but replace the rest of the sailing navy with an oil powerd navy by building from scratch and then disbanding the replaced units on station.
Marshall Thomas
King
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2005
- Messages
- 700
I haven't played CivIV for a while, but I just ordered Beyond the Sword.
How important is naval supremacy and the naval tech race (particulary in the idustrial era) in CivIV:BtS?
When you use Wolf's mod (and just in CivIVBtS in general), is the quaility and size of a nation's navy important?
I hope it's important because historically the great nations of the industrial era put a lot of effort and resourses into their fleets. In vanilla CivIV, I thought that the role of the navy was not as signifigant as it should have been. Are navies much more important than they used to be, if you play on a realistic map? Thanks in advance
How important is naval supremacy and the naval tech race (particulary in the idustrial era) in CivIV:BtS?
When you use Wolf's mod (and just in CivIVBtS in general), is the quaility and size of a nation's navy important?
I hope it's important because historically the great nations of the industrial era put a lot of effort and resourses into their fleets. In vanilla CivIV, I thought that the role of the navy was not as signifigant as it should have been. Are navies much more important than they used to be, if you play on a realistic map? Thanks in advance
TheDS
Regular Riot
It naturally depends on the map, but most of the time, as in real life, the navy influences the land battles. If you are doing an intercontinental invasion, and your navy is superior, you don't have to worry much about the enemy counter-invading (not that you have to worry about that much anyway with this AI). However, if your navy isn't quite up to snuff, you might get your surprise attack launched, but when your second wave comes in, the transports might get nailed before they reach their targets.
IME, a navy is best for two things: initial surprise assault, and bombarding coastal cities so the Arty doesn't have to do it, and can instead charge in, or I can also, with a good enough tech lead, do without Arty altogether on the coasts. Not to say I haven't used the extra mobility afforded to move from one coastal target to the next, but I tend to consider that a bonus, and not a gimme.
I'm really not sure why DDs were given such a huge ST. I would've thought 20 was quite enough, but I suspect it has to do with aircraft and a bit of laziness.*
I have drooled over the idea of Wolf's mod for quite some time now, but I'm trying to get used to the actual game before I go and do a lot of mods. I installed BAT/BUG because it adds useful interface enhancements and doesn't change the game, I also expect one day to use the improved AI mod if I can also use it with Wolf's mod. I don't expect to use any others, unless they somehow get Nextwar unfutzed and working with these others I've mentioned.
* By this I mean, the land units and air units have to be comparable, so that's why the air units have the STs they do. Which means the sea units need comparable values too. However, they made it clear that it's completely reasonable - and Wolf drives it home with his age bonuses - to give bonuses or penalties to certain types of interactions. Frex, there could be a blanket +20% for ships vs aircraft. There could be a blanket +20% for steel ships vs wooden ones. Both of these aren't much different from Gunpowder-using units ignoring Walls.
IME, a navy is best for two things: initial surprise assault, and bombarding coastal cities so the Arty doesn't have to do it, and can instead charge in, or I can also, with a good enough tech lead, do without Arty altogether on the coasts. Not to say I haven't used the extra mobility afforded to move from one coastal target to the next, but I tend to consider that a bonus, and not a gimme.
I'm really not sure why DDs were given such a huge ST. I would've thought 20 was quite enough, but I suspect it has to do with aircraft and a bit of laziness.*
I have drooled over the idea of Wolf's mod for quite some time now, but I'm trying to get used to the actual game before I go and do a lot of mods. I installed BAT/BUG because it adds useful interface enhancements and doesn't change the game, I also expect one day to use the improved AI mod if I can also use it with Wolf's mod. I don't expect to use any others, unless they somehow get Nextwar unfutzed and working with these others I've mentioned.
* By this I mean, the land units and air units have to be comparable, so that's why the air units have the STs they do. Which means the sea units need comparable values too. However, they made it clear that it's completely reasonable - and Wolf drives it home with his age bonuses - to give bonuses or penalties to certain types of interactions. Frex, there could be a blanket +20% for ships vs aircraft. There could be a blanket +20% for steel ships vs wooden ones. Both of these aren't much different from Gunpowder-using units ignoring Walls.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Would it help if I told you the Better AI mod is included with the Wolfshanze Mod (it's built-in).
PostScript--
After the Mayan's achieved world domination, Blackbeard retired to a teaching post in a small costal town. He currently lectures on sailing techniques, pillage, rape, and flying Spaghetti Monsters. He retired with combat 5, leadership, morale, and sentry promotions. Other "civilizations" never achieved chemistry, and in part due to his own efforts, he never left the wooden ships era.
This was a fun experiment, but it did change gameplay some. I never gave my vassel any knowledge, and I usually give away a lot. Also I never built any cats or other artillery pieces, I let frigates and SofLine do the job. I won't due this often, but if the circumstances are right....
Also, many thanks for a great discussion on ships and the mods out there. They look great, and I like the ides of a coal based navy to "fill the gap". I have shied away from mods for fear of wrecking performance, but I might have to check them out.
I have always regretted that CIV only uses our good qualities and not our vices. I think the game needs, bars, taverns, Inns, brothels, gambling halls, casinos, fairs, carnies, circuses, opium dens, restaurants, pool halls, medicine shows, discos, etc....
Does anyone know if the mods (or somewhere in the Mod forums) this is addressed?
Thanks again for a great discussion! (don't feel you have to stop just cause I finished my game!)
After the Mayan's achieved world domination, Blackbeard retired to a teaching post in a small costal town. He currently lectures on sailing techniques, pillage, rape, and flying Spaghetti Monsters. He retired with combat 5, leadership, morale, and sentry promotions. Other "civilizations" never achieved chemistry, and in part due to his own efforts, he never left the wooden ships era.
This was a fun experiment, but it did change gameplay some. I never gave my vassel any knowledge, and I usually give away a lot. Also I never built any cats or other artillery pieces, I let frigates and SofLine do the job. I won't due this often, but if the circumstances are right....
Also, many thanks for a great discussion on ships and the mods out there. They look great, and I like the ides of a coal based navy to "fill the gap". I have shied away from mods for fear of wrecking performance, but I might have to check them out.
I have always regretted that CIV only uses our good qualities and not our vices. I think the game needs, bars, taverns, Inns, brothels, gambling halls, casinos, fairs, carnies, circuses, opium dens, restaurants, pool halls, medicine shows, discos, etc....
Does anyone know if the mods (or somewhere in the Mod forums) this is addressed?
Thanks again for a great discussion! (don't feel you have to stop just cause I finished my game!)
TheDS
Regular Riot
I for one am glad we DON'T have things like that. Civ isn't a game about opium, and opium doesn't need any more glorification than it already gets. I'm sure we can assume that that's what the Spices actually are, if we wanted to.
I never thought of the spices like that! I guess perspective is everything. before refrigeration and modern food processing, spices were unbelievably valuable and useful. Not just for covering up tainted meat, but for providing flavors in a diet, that even if healthy, was not varied.
I certainly did not mean to offend you (or anyone) talking about our vices. Our vices have lead to growth in civiliztions though. There are respected scholars who propose that the growth of agriculture and cities is directly tied to brewing and fermentation. Also taverns and inns were important for news, socializing and way places to stop if you were away from your home village.
Yes there are cost associated with them, and I don't mean to glorify them, but they are a part of us.
I certainly did not mean to offend you (or anyone) talking about our vices. Our vices have lead to growth in civiliztions though. There are respected scholars who propose that the growth of agriculture and cities is directly tied to brewing and fermentation. Also taverns and inns were important for news, socializing and way places to stop if you were away from your home village.
Yes there are cost associated with them, and I don't mean to glorify them, but they are a part of us.
Okay heres how the tech ladder looks at 1700ad. I have 4-5 tech+ lead over everyone on monarch. No one has gunpowder yet.
So whats my strategy now and how many privateers do i need. I have built about 8 so far. As most of my cities are coastal i could whip quite a few privateers.
Charlemaine is my biggest threat but he is lacking techwise. i have one GG privateer so far.
I have riflemen which i could use too.
So whats my strategy now and how many privateers do i need. I have built about 8 so far. As most of my cities are coastal i could whip quite a few privateers.
Charlemaine is my biggest threat but he is lacking techwise. i have one GG privateer so far.
I have riflemen which i could use too.
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