A New Dawn: Resurected!

[stolenrays]

Yeah, there is so much one could possibly do with AND. I found there is a lot of code that is unifnished/commented out that could be removed or finished (e.g. Sack Mod, Enslave Mod).

 

[AIAndy]

Yep, I do intend to talk to him soon. I'd like to make a "best effort" on clearing up some of the bugs myself though. That's the only way to learn! I intend to do some merging with the C2C sources to try to squish certain bugs and then ask Koshling for help on the ones that are squish-resistant.

The current AND DLL is mostly the DLL of C2C from 5 months ago I think, so if you consider merging, then maybe it should be a full merge with conditional compiles at the points where AND and C2C behavior should be different, although most of that should be determined by the XML, not hard coded into the DLL.
In other words best start from the C2C DLL and then consider all differences between the C2C DLL of 5 months ago and the AND DLL at that time so you know what changes Aforess made on the merge.
There are some additional XML files that are needed and some global defines and the like but the big advantage in the end would be to have more or less the same DLL for C2C and AND and any fixes/features would be available to both (by either using a separate repository or one of the existing project ones).
Mind, that is still no small effort but I think it is worth it.

 

[jtanner28]

The current AND DLL is mostly the DLL of C2C from 5 months ago I think, so if you consider merging, then maybe it should be a full merge with conditional compiles at the points where AND and C2C behavior should be different, although most of that should be determined by the XML, not hard coded into the DLL.
In other words best start from the C2C DLL and then consider all differences between the C2C DLL of 5 months ago and the AND DLL at that time so you know what changes Aforess made on the merge.
There are some additional XML files that are needed and some global defines and the like but the big advantage in the end would be to have more or less the same DLL for C2C and AND and any fixes/features would be available to both (by either using a separate repository or one of the existing project ones).
Mind, that is still no small effort but I think it is worth it.

That is the basic plan. I'll be taking the merge a little at a time until I get current. It will probably take quite some time, but yeah I think it will work out. I've got my work cut out for me.

 

[Koshling]

That is the basic plan. I'll be taking the merge a little at a time until I get current. It will probably take quite some time, but yeah I think it will work out. I've got my work cut out for me.

Let me know when you start on merging stuff from K-mod. I have merged some fixes in from K-mod (to C2C), but on the whole the code is a bit too different to do this mechanically and regularly so I don't try to keep up with k-mod chnages on a regular basis.

If you port extra things from K-mod, or want to discuss what can be ported/how I'm most interested since C2C can benefit from that too (i.e. - I'd like to work with you on that, or indeed on any other AI updates you plan so we can try to get the best of all worlds in both mods).

When you merge more recent C2C stuff please be aware I've been making VERY extensive changes to the underpinnings of the AI in the last couple of releases (not surfaced them hugely yet, but the underlying capabilities are there as foundations), so you may want to think up front about whether to either avoid merging those aspects altogether (will probably simply K-mod merging) or take them on (will simplify future C2C merging, as more improvements start to take advantage of them). The key ones are:

• Totally rewritten pathing engine that no longer uses the main game engine pathing code. Main reason for this was performance as it enabled the AI unit processing to run MUCH MUCH faster. It also adds small amount of useful AI fucntionality too though. Note that without this it is IMPOSSIBLE for the AI to calculate paths that go outside the current viewport with viewports enabled, so if you plan to take viewports this is highly recommended.
• Contracting system for units - in the original AI, each unit essentially makes totally independent decisions, with each unit searching for the best use of its time. This doesn't scale well, and makes cooperation between units harder. In C2C a contract broking system has been added that allows any code to place requests for units with parameterised characteristics. Units that don't have high priority work to do will seek open contracts they can fulfill instead. This means that rather than every unit having to perform potentially expensive map searches they can just search a small request list. It also allows more centralised intelligence for a task to request the units it needs. This capability is currently used for workers and settler requesting escorts, and (new in V25) for cities requesting defenders rather than each city neccessarily building is own. Cities can also respond to contarct requests that are unfulfuilled by queuing builds of appropriate units for later delivery - the net effect is that units tend to get built much more in the better cities and move to the periphery rather than small cities wasting time building their own defenders. I plan to extend use of this functionality to more proactively building attack stack, and to requesting great commanders to the most appropriate battle fields.
• Combat odds calculations significantly reworked. Rather than returning odds of a win I now returns odds normalized by the expected gain. This means that a stack of 20 units beating a stack of 10 enemy ones, but with an expected loss of more units than the enemy's total stack size (actually it's not unit count, it's total strength, but you get the idea) can still return low normalized odds because the win is not worthwhile given the expected losses. I will shortly be enhancing this further by changing from using raw strengths to effective strengths (taking full account of promotions - so for example a highly promoted unit expectign to kill two units of the same type but with no promotions, and then lose to a third, in a stack of 3, will calculate low normalized odds, because the value of the promotions outweighs the 2 for 1 unit kill)

 

[ls612]

I just wanted to give a good defense of C2C here, and address what I see as major complaints the current AND crowd has about C2C.

AND was changed by Afforess after 1.74 to be a less is more mod, which I think is what caused it's decline. However, ignoring that, many AND players have migrated since the beginning of 2011 to C2C, and as a result, C2C is the center of development for the ROM line of mods and has been for a year. Some though have issues with C2C, and some of those issues are valid to a lesser or greater degree. I would like to address those issues here, both to explain and also to convince people about C2C. I respect the AND resurrection effort, and would like to lay out what my response to their grievances are.

The first thing that I hear people saying is that the AI in C2C is very weak, and they have some good points. However, having been a C2C kibitzer for a year and a half and a modder for 8 months, I can say that many of the people saying that stopped playing C2C around v20 or so, which had horrible AI. Since then so many changes have been made to improve the AI in little and big ways, that now it can be challenging even for the more skilled players. Many nasty bugs were fixed with early AI development, which would cause the AI to build 100 times more military units than it needed to when it was a minor civ (ie, in the Prehistoric Era). This would kill the early AI economy, and lead to the player taking an insurmountable lead early-game. Another bug involved the AI inverting the value of defending border cities, leading to the cities close to the edge of an AI empire being very lightly defended. The AI strategic war routines got rewrote last version, so now attacking a powerful AI will be more like the battle of Ypres than Sherman through Georgia. These bugs were responsible for many AI failures, and their fixes, as well as many other actual AI enhancements since V20, have made the game more challenging, although I will admit not as much as ROM was at points.

The second major issue I've heard regarding C2C is that people see some things as bloat. A specific example was the addition of the Prehistoric techs related to the Nomad mod. We were planning on adding a nomad mechanic to the Prehistoric Era, as a substitute for what we have now early-game. This got stymied because LyTning released Multiple Maps, which is our first priority feature-wise. Since then, we've added Viewports, the graphical portion of Multi-maps, to C2C. However, this focus, and our focus on features generally, have led to calls of bloat and extra buildings for no good gameplay reason. The Housing mod has specifically drawn much criticism, as it is basically a source of free and for people. However, this is necessary to keep things balanced, or else mounting costs from so many buildings (and their associated maintenance) would swamp people. Other features have been mostly lauded, such as Crime, which is a unique mechanic not found in other mods. I agree to a certain extent that we really need to focus on filling out the future eras, but those remain empty because we need to add Multiple Maps first, and our SDK team is on vacation until the fall. The other reason that I think people accuse us of 'feature-bloat' is an unjust one. People who use the SVN version of C2C will often have new, incomplete features added to their game as we develop the mod. The SVN is specifically for playtesters and modders, and you can't expect for it to always be balanced or stable. For long-term games, playing with the release version is much better from a stability perspective, as the changes between releases are often less than intra-version changes we make on the SVN.

As for the 'less is more' people, I have no response. We have to agree to disagree on that one. I hope that people will read this, and maybe even be swayed by it, but at least I've made a defense and an explanation of C2C for those disillusioned with it.

 

[stolenrays]

C2C is almost like a mirrored download database becuase it has so much in it. It has good features though.

 

[ls612]

C2C is almost like a mirrored download database becuase it has so much in it. It has good features though.

I'm not quite certain what you mean by that.

 

[stolenrays]

It is like a backup civfanatics downloads database because practically everythin is in it.

 

[ls612]

It is like a backup civfanatics downloads database because practically everythin is in it.

I am continually surprised by how much existing content isn't in C2C. There is so much stuff in the archives and in old modcomps, there's only so much we can add.

 

[stolenrays]

Really, when I go over the code/play the game it almost seems like everything is in there. I take your word for it though.

 

[gdambrauskas]

makes me wonder why 'bug catcher' wasn't split into grasshoper/cicada/locust catcher...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55235789@N04/sets/72157631186290192/

The above shows a small portion of the bloat, there are tons of similar buildings that do the same generic additions for gold/science etc Basically in the game of c2c as far as all these 'whatever' buildings are concerned, all my wife and i so, is 'click click click', build them all, neither of us really cares to make any choice between these buildings. And did I mention, there are TONS of them in the game. So #1)i don't really choose, just build them all and #2) building all these things leads to population 30 cities with 50000 culture in 100-200 turns. Your choice is down to choosing building or unit; there are some unique buildings that are cool and require making a choice, but most of the time (especially when u are not at war), you can just clickety-click on every one of the building in the building list and not care.

Why add all of these bug catchers and carion stuff, they don't add anything interesting. It's just another generic '+1 to something' building. It's artificial stretch of the game for no good reason. I don't see this as the kind of 'more' that is actually any good.

per sid meier "A game is a series of interesting choices" and c2c with building bloat is certainly not in that category.

I completely agree with these guys (and c2c falls short in most areas of design)

http://planetcivilization.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=23

That said, #1 rule is "you are the only person who has to like what you have created", so nuff said Obviously you spend a lot of time and effort in c2c, so i tip the hat to the c2c team.

Btw, my wife still likes c2c a lot, but all the massive changes present in the mod lead to the game unplayable in multiplayer. In 20-30 turns, game becomes infinite oos chain, so we can't really play it together.

 

[JosEPh_II]

...but most of the time (especially when u are not at war), you can just clickety-click on every one of the building in the building list and not care.

Up till the recent pre 26 SVN build I could agree in most cases. But with the New Civics and the Crime/Pollution/Disease additions you won't be just click, click, click, add another bldg. If you do, you'll be swimming in Crime, pollution, and disease.

I've been testing C2C/Prehistoric Era since StrategyOnly was working on it in NWA. 25 versions+, and at times I too have suggested we trim the fat. But invariably by the next version what I thought was fat was the initial add in phase for the next enhancement. Right now Crime and Pollution are making me pull my hair. But both Are making me look harder at what and when I build something. Are there buildings that could be "changed" I feel there still are. But I don't know the full extent of Hydro's, DH's, Koshling's, AIAndy's, ls612, ThunderBrd's and others plans.

So bottom line, from what I'm getting out of your post, is that C2C changes too much and isn't meeting your needs for MP. If it was Stable for MP you'd view it more favorably.

And we have totally hijacked this thread, sorry jt!
JosEPh

 

[AIAndy]

Btw, my wife still likes c2c a lot, but all the massive changes present in the mod lead to the game unplayable in multiplayer. In 20-30 turns, game becomes infinite oos chain, so we can't really play it together.

Is that still the case in recent SVN versions? I fixed one major source of OOS two weeks ago that caused very frequent OOS.

EDIT:
To add to the discussion (although as Joseph correctly says, it is kind of hijacking the thread), I think C2C currently caters to the people that really like a massive feeling, staying with one game for quite some time although it is far from perfect and might have some bloat. So it is not a slim game design that has important decisions at each step that you can get into easily. My work personally is usually generic enough code to suit any game design that you execute in it so I am happy to see one more mod using it with AND and am looking forward to what it will be used for in a "Less is more" mod.

 

[ls612]

I think it comes down to "one person's bloat is another person's awesome new feature" here, and that is what i think turns off people from 'more is more' mods, they like many of the features but dislike one very significantly. I figure though what will really convince more people to come and try C2C will be Multi-Maps, that is such a big and novel undertaking. But, as JosEPh said, we really stealing the AND resurrection team's thunder here.

 

[TheDisco]

makes me wonder why 'bug catcher' wasn't split into grasshoper/cicada/locust catcher...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/55235789@N04/sets/72157631186290192/

The above shows a small portion of the bloat, there are tons of similar buildings that do the same generic additions for gold/science etc Basically in the game of c2c as far as all these 'whatever' buildings are concerned, all my wife and i so, is 'click click click', build them all, neither of us really cares to make any choice between these buildings. And did I mention, there are TONS of them in the game. So #1)i don't really choose, just build them all and #2) building all these things leads to population 30 cities with 50000 culture in 100-200 turns. Your choice is down to choosing building or unit; there are some unique buildings that are cool and require making a choice, but most of the time (especially when u are not at war), you can just clickety-click on every one of the building in the building list and not care.

Why add all of these bug catchers and carion stuff, they don't add anything interesting. It's just another generic '+1 to something' building. It's artificial stretch of the game for no good reason. I don't see this as the kind of 'more' that is actually any good.

per sid meier "A game is a series of interesting choices" and c2c with building bloat is certainly not in that category.

I completely agree with these guys (and c2c falls short in most areas of design)

http://planetcivilization.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Articles.Detail&id=23

That said, #1 rule is "you are the only person who has to like what you have created", so nuff said Obviously you spend a lot of time and effort in c2c, so i tip the hat to the c2c team.

Btw, my wife still likes c2c a lot, but all the massive changes present in the mod lead to the game unplayable in multiplayer. In 20-30 turns, game becomes infinite oos chain, so we can't really play it together.

C2C is my favorite mod but I agree with much of your post, I often get frustrated with the feeling that I need to just keep clicking on more +1 type buildings and not really think about it. Over and over, to the point I want to stop playing. I wish somehow every building choice was meaningful in some way. I also don't like how there are very few negative consequences for the choices I make, as I ALWAYS have plenty of cash flow, plenty of happiness, and plenty of health.

But I love all the extra features which is why I play the mod. The joy I get from the extra features exceeds the boredom I get from almost meaninless building choices. Although I do like the unique buildings that are only possible when multiple conditions are met, like having both a mountain and ice tile and having a cow resource allows a certain building to be built (hypothetical example).

I do expect at some point the focus will turn more to rebalancing the game and, as you say, will make sure as many choices are interesting as possible. I haven't quite figured out the crime/pollution thing so maybe that is a step in that direction. Although I'm a bit confused why pollution is becoming more important while health, which I always thought incorporated that concept, has been made much less meaningful.

But this is a AND forum right LOL?

AND was my favorite mod until development on it stopped so I'll be keeping my eye on this space. I would suggest that core philosophy should permeate AND development: make sure decisions are interesting as that is why many of us play these type of games.

 

[Sgtslick]

but most of the time (especially when u are not at war), you can just clickety-click on every one of the building in the building list and not care.

I like to edit the xml to make tech speed much faster and building construction & unit production much slower while playing epic (which is quite fast already). This creates choice/strategy in my mind and is more of a challenge.

I have brought this issue (being discussed) up a few times but have resigned to just happily editing the xml. I remember when I brought up what I see as the problem that buildings need to go obsolete before you are able to build every single one or else there is no real strategy, players can simply build everything. Slower construction speeds have been tried but a few people complain that they don't manage to build everything before they become obsolete and therefore don't get to truly appreciate each 'age'

The other major concern I had was that heaps of this 'bloat' as you guys call it actually give +1 and +1 meaning even with a xml buffed up Deity - became no challenge after only a few plays. This is improving however with the new civics and with disease and crime as Josesph mentioned. Also Koshling's negative gold from certain buildings that scales with your maintenance level (based on civics etc) as well as difficulty level - should be mentioned as this has helped heaps too. With Koshling now moving away from the multi-map stuff and wanting to focus more on making AI more competitive - im sure he will do amazing things.

 

[gdambrauskas]

Is that still the case in recent SVN versions? I fixed one major source of OOS two weeks ago that caused very frequent OOS.

got svn code today and gave it a shot, was actually way worse than our earlier game. Got oos on plopping city (suspecting that free city guardian is causing it), but decided to carry on after saving and reloading. Then there was oos every 1-2 turns in the 1st 10 turns of the game. I have revs on and we play simultaneous turns. Earlier game i think we made past 50 turns until oos, but now the game is completely unplayable in mp. I'll add info in the c2c forum bug report section.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Something after SVN version 3452 has a problem. Try reverting to that version and see if it plays better, if you want that is.

Koshling and ls612 made some AI changes after that version and Hydro and Praetyre have made extensive xml changes. Either could be source of everybody's problem just not MP.

My current game was going well until after I updated past 3452. Now it's taking increasingly longer to do an EoT, about 3+ minutes and getting longer as of last night. I've never had EoT times like this before.

JosEPh

 

[ls612]

Something after SVN version 3452 has a problem. Try reverting to that version and see if it plays better, if you want that is.

Koshling and ls612 made some AI changes after that version and Hydro and Praetyre have made extensive xml changes. Either could be source of everybody's problem just not MP.

My current game was going well until after I updated past 3452. Now it's taking increasingly longer to do an EoT, about 3+ minutes and getting longer as of last night. I've never had EoT times like this before.

JosEPh

I think that the EoT issues are related to maintenance calculations, although I can't get the profiler to confirm that for me. I'll try and fix it ASAP, at least before V26 is released. I'm pretty sure that the AI changes are not responsible for it, but the building changes might be, there were some hints in the debugger that the CanTrainInternal function was related to the issue.

 

[Blueblood]

So is this thread about AND or c2c? It seems that some within the c2c group are trying very hard to recruit users from this mod fandom. I like AND as a good balance because it doesn't require me to have a supercomputer to run things at a decent setting. Moreover, I've been very pleased with the current trend of pausing the addition of new features until the current game is purged of significant bugs and complications. A relatively low bug mod is something I value strongly.