A New Take on Wonders of the World

[epicivfreak]

 

[dexters]

for everyone in the OP, but I like to accentuate these things.

As a long-time fan, having played the series since Civ1, I'll disagree. There was a time when I liked to have exact control over everything, but these days I want more randomness keeping me on my toes. I realize that's more along the role-playing playstyle for Civ and goes against the warmonger and builder playstyles, so it's the perfect sort of thing to include as a modular rule.

The wonder mechanic you're describing is just not what Civ is all about though. You're essentially wanting to really force certain wonders only for certain Civs. You sorta get that already in Civ5 with starting biases. No mountains? No MachuPichu, but Incas usually start near mountains so they have a better chance of grabbing it.

But ultimately, any Civ has a fair shot at building it. If they have mountains.

Whether you like it or not is sort of irrelevant. When I say 'civ players' I'm speaking of the community as a whole. Watching reactions by players to removal of control, perceived or real, has convinced me your suggestion is horrible and will not go down well.

That said, it may work as a sub-system, like collecting great works in BNW, but it won't work as a main draw. 'Come pick a Civ and have no control over what wonder you build' doesn't work well as a bullet point.

So again, you don't simply select "build great wall" in this system and have it done, but you can guide your civilization towards building the great wall, just as in Civ4, you'd guide your city towards building a Great Merchant or a Great Artist by doing the things necessary to increase the chances of that happening with the tools provided.

[/quote]

I get that. But that's a whole lot of tweaking and cajoling to maybe get the wonder you want.

It can work as a subsystem though. Maybe a Civ with a lot of farms will get certain bonuses to build a wonder with a farming oriented flavour.

What I don't agree with is your flavouring of wonders to attach to only certain civilizations and all the hoops people have to jump through to maybe get a wonder they want. Too much work and too much uncertainty.

At best, you can have a system where you get a discount for certain wonders if you orient your civilization a certain way. Now that requires planning and strategy. Something people will want and enjoy. Wonders will have to be tagged with different labels, but it's doable and could work. But ultimately, China is still going to build those pyramids if the Chinese AI or human player decides to go for a pyramid building strategy, whatever that may be. And yes, they get to pick the Pyramids from the drop down and not just hope their Civilization pops a pyramid instead of something else.

Besides there are not enough wonders out there for each Civ to have their 1 wonder and also build others. Most Civs only have 1 wonder in Civ5, if at all.

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[DudewiththeFood]

Well, first of all, that's not my goal. A boost in chances of building specific wonders for certain civs is just one of many factors.

I said before, I like your idea but this I think is the worst part about it. Think about it terms of balance. Greece gets a bonus to the Parthenon, Statue of Zeus, Temple of Athena, Oracle and the Colossus. Egypt gets a bonus to the Great Library, the Great Lighthouse, the Pyramids and maybe Petra. China gets a bonus for the Great Wall, The Porcelain Tower, the Forbidden Palace and the Terracotta Army. The Aztecs get no bonuses. Neither do the Shoshone or Denmark, the Iroquois, Sweden, Poland, Austria, Portugal, Morocco that I can think of now.


Like I said before, increase wonder costs a lot but decrease them for certain things like resources, achievements, city yields and buildings. Achievements can be measured in milestones like the economic victory in Civ Rev. Say you want to build the Statue of Zeus. Currently it is 185 production. I'd say double that normally so it's 370. However, in Paris you have a barracks (1 military prestige), have recruited 7 units (1 more for every 5) and you have taken a city (another). Each military point takes 10% of the production time for military wonders. The barracks and units recruited are local points because they have happened in Paris but the city being taken is a point in all French cities.

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[dexters]

Well, first of all, that's not my goal. A boost in chances of building specific wonders for certain civs is just one of many factors.


Yep, that's the point of the system as described, make you do some work to guide the wonder selection. I couldn't have put it better myself, and apparently didn't, eh? It might not seem appropriate for Civ5, but I'm pretty sure one day there will be a Civ6 developed and gosh-O-golly, it just might work there.

Won't work in Civilization as a main feature.

 

[DudewiththeFood]

Would this? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=505859

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[dexters]

Are we going to sit here for months with you saying that and me saying I disagree or what?

Mmmkay, bye-bye now...

Maybe not, but judging from your post history or rather thread history, you seem rather self absorbed and adversarial at any criticism.

I tried really had to see the good in your suggestions and there's something there which I outlined in an alternative formulation to go along with the existing pick your wonder policy.

But your only interested in a 'discussion' if your ideas are taken whole. That's a huge problem.

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[awesome]

Yeah, got that. That's your opinions. It sounds fun to me.

I'm not entirely familiar with Civ5 or Civ4 for that matter, at least as a default game in the latter case, I've played lots of mods there. Civ4 is the version I was referring to though.

You're missing the point. It sounds fun to me, so I put it out there. If you don't like it, feel free to say so, as you've done, and then move on.


Also, the sentiment that this can't be done in Civ because it's random is a bit absurd, don't you think? Given the amount of stuff in the game that is largely random chance, adding this to this so-called "strategy" game of Civ seems like a minor issue to me.

The reason why it's more than a minor issue, as many others have pointed out, is because a lot of strategies depend on certain wonders. Sure, battle results can be pretty random, but you can build as many of one type of unit as you want. The same isn't the case with wonders. Maybe this would work if all of the wonders of a certain type had the same stats and abilities, but that's not the case.

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[steveg700]

Wait...
You can't build more than one Wonder!?!
Please, tell me more.

Maybe you're just trying to be funny, but it comes across more like snideness, and kinda leaves the impression that you take for granted people's willingness to engage you in discussion.

Seems like what awesome is statying is that just getting a random wonder isn't particularly helpful. It needs to be a wonder that compliments a particular strategy. Sometimes there's only one that does the job at a given era. I don't see folks wanting to blow a Great Engineer just to wind up with a Terra Cotta Army that could do precious little for them.

There needs to be a way to ratchet the odds up to 100%, or pretty close. The mechanism for doing so is the question. It would be great to see wonders require appropriate resources (like stone or marble), but that would take the game in a direction that they can't mitigate, as that's a random factor in and of itself.

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Please keep things civil, steer clear of personal attacks and dismissive comments, and engage in actual discussion of the topic of the thread, rather than meta-discussion about whether there's a discussion taking place.

 

[kaspergm]

Wonders are large investments. I wouldn't want to invest a lot in Hanging Gardens and then get the Statue of Zeus instead. I also don't really see how this would improve the game...

Actually, that's not true at all...
VainoValkea said:
(...)
Which is totally wrong, as in not what I was proposing at all

Basically, the short of it is this, just like you don't select which type of great person you're going to build, there are percentage chances that determine that, you only select "Build Wonder" and percentage chances determine exactly which one you build.

Seriously, are you kidding me?

 

[epicivfreak]

 

[sukritact]

I never proposed you select the building of one wonder (hanging gardens) and getting another, completely different wonder (statue of Zeus) out of the process. I am proposing selecting a generic Build Wonder option and getting a wonder out of that, through the method described.

Isn't this the equivalent of, throw in a LOT of production and receive a random effect? Even the weighted option would be a risky investment.

Feels too volatile IMHO. Imagine you're a peaceful civ going for a cultural victory; then you notice a neighbor building up an army; so you swap to building up an army for defense. Said neighbor then gets decimated and left a husk of its former glory; so you relax and go for a wonder. Unfortunately, your last 30 or so turns of unit building causes the game to decide that you want the Statue of Zeus when you were in fact hoping for Stonehenge or the Great Library. You are disappointed by the waste of production since you weren't intending on invading anyone in the first place.

Wonders have very specific abilities and are an ACTIVE investment; in contrast to GP which are a PASSIVE investment and even so, you do have a lot more control than you realise over GP generation in general: points are generated based on the specific structures you build, the specialists you assign, etc.

The fine tuning system may work though. Regardless; I don't think I'd like this in the game, though is just my opinion.

At best, you can have a system where you get a discount for certain wonders if you orient your civilization a certain way. Now that requires planning and strategy. Something people will want and enjoy. Wonders will have to be tagged with different labels, but it's doable and could work. But ultimately, China is still going to build those pyramids if the Chinese AI or human player decides to go for a pyramid building strategy, whatever that may be. And yes, they get to pick the Pyramids from the drop down and not just hope their Civilization pops a pyramid instead of something else.

In that case, I think a prerequisite system (though expanded) like in the WotAW scenario would be more interesting.

 

[awesome]

We realize that you really like your own idea, but the best way to guide your civ into building something is by choosing to build it in the first place.

 

[epicivfreak]