A question to Communists:

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Umm, no. People (indeed, all intelligent creatures) care about the survival of themselves. A modest amount of self-sacrifice is fairly common, but true altruism (giving your life for the good of all) is a pretty rare thing.

Do you think a wild wolf cares about doing his part to keep nature alive and thriving??? Nope. He doesn't even understand it. He knows that he's hungry and that he wants to get rowdy with that nice lady wolf in the pack next door. That's it. The system of nature survives from day to day because of the selfish greedy actions of all the individual participants. That is the system you get when people are left to do what they want to. Even if it's in their best interests to work together, they only do so as far as it benefits them as individuals.

Take a look at all the people right here in CFC who say they worry about global warming. While they continue to use computers to post in here.

The well-being of the species is secondary. The best way for any living critter to survive is to manipulate and steal from other members of his or her species. But, of course, society can't survive that way. And since a whole bunch of hardcore Commies in here keep trusting in humans' better nature: you can't. Just read a newspaper for proof. Read the story about the irate driver who was so mad at the woman who cut her off on the freeway that he grabbed her dog out of the passenger's seat and threw the poor critter into the fast lane where it was immediately run over and reborn as a pizza.

We can't depend on people to contribute to society; we need a way to make sure everybody (or almost everybody) does; and we cannot use violent force to do it.

So how do we do it?

I don't trust in any human nature, you daft fool... God, read my 'effin' posts for once. I stated that human nature is learned, as in not STATIC... No, the wolf isn't greedy, like you claim. A wolf, like nearly any other mammal in existence, will rarely if ever eat more than it NEEDS. Humans are one of the only species on the planet that will eat past the point of satisfying hunger, so it must be a human construct, eh? If you humans are the only ones that will do that, then what is unique about humans that allows us to? Should be obvious, our forebrain, conscious mind, PRE-FRONTAL FRAGGIN' CORTEX! In other words, our greed is pretty much unique. Ever seen a shark swimming through a school of fish? Ever seen a human at a buffet? Yeah, big difference. Since learning is the only essential neurological difference between the two, then it must the source of our untamed greed.

Why do capitalists always confuse the desire for survival with greed. To each according to need, animals pretty much follow that... It doesn't help you survive as an ape to steal food from the other members of your tribe until they starve. No, in fact, I'd say you're totally SOL if your tribe is weakened. So what be our survival instinct? To deliberately kill those we're dependant on? Or to actually ensure their survival as a method ensuring our own?
 
Increasing productivity by force has already been tried many times. The practice (also known as slavery) has been shown to be a complete failure.

But I already showed long ago that some level of force/bribe is inevitable. If you take away government and pressure from other people, then the authority forcing you to do work becomes your own stomach. Either you find food, however much work it takes, or you suffer increasingly unbearable pain. Then your limbs start to waste away and you die a slow and horrible death.

So go to hell. I like my system a lot better than that.

Soviet Russia's five year plans... From producing almost no steel to becoming one of the world's leading producers of steel in just under 15 years, a feat that took the US about 80 years. It was successful.

Oh, by the way, how is it not forced labor (wage-slavery) to tell a person, as in the US industrial revolution, work your 16 hour shift for less that $2 an hour or I'll fire you and you can starve to death? And how is it not socialist improvement if the government must step in a tell the business they can't do that to stop them, thereby improving the standard of living?
 
Side note, Greenpeace: "go to Hell" is not something people do when they've lost an argument.

What people do is call other people idiots, or go "that's it, I'm through trying to reason with this guy", or otherwise insult an opponent's intelligence. That's something you're not going to see me doing.

The IQ's of my opponents are irrelevant. If a complete moron told me Communism is a failure, he would be right regardless of his IQ. If a person is a low-watt bulb, calling him a low-watt bulb is never necessary.

The burning question in your head right now is probably something along the lines of "did BasketCase just call me a low-watt bulb???" I could say "no", but maybe I'm lying...... :D

Or it's what they do when they've lost an argument... Funny how you associate saying things essentially at random with 'proof'.

On a side not, communists, socialist, anarchists, and the entire-left wing, tend to have hirer IQ's. By nearly 15 points actually. So really, all I have to do is wait for the educational system to catch up with us, and the left-wing should grow quite considerably. The real question becomes does close-mind, right-wing ideologies make you stupid, or is it just stupid people who support them?
 
That effect (plain old basic groupthink) was already well-known long before Milgram arrived on the scene. None of us wants to be the first to stick his neck out. The basic theme remains unchanged: the test subject wants someone else to take the lead. In your example, Traitorfish, the actor who sits next to the test subject and refuses to continue the experiment steals the crown--he becomes the leader.

Here's another one: yet another variant Milgram did was to have two actors in the leader role. At the beginning, both "leaders" were telling the test subject to push the shock button. Then, halfway through the experiment, the two leaders start to disagree about whether the experiment should continue (this argument, of course, is scripted).

Most of the test subjects (I forget the exact percentage) stopped immediately at the point of disagreement.


Milgram's final conclusion stands: authority is one of our most powerful motivators.

Which is exactly why capitalism exists. Group mentality encourages people to take up jobs that don't necessarily make them happy instead of one that would, whilst ignoring the needs of many. Helping the many, by the way, has been statistically proven to make a person happier than an equivalent amount of money does.
 
Greenpeace, how about we skip right to the chase: what should be the final authority over a person?

Native American's method of 'authority' wouldn't be bad, if we were prepared for it. Chiefs that couldn't necessarily tell people what to do, but acted more as mentors or elders that people looked up to.

On a side note: I really wish the natives hadn't been destroyed. I think they would've taken, as they had been prior to their annihilation, a completely different sociological evolutionary path. Funny, kinda'; to peaceful to survive... Really unfortunate.
 
Is a measure of what people say. But take a look at what American people are doing. Do you see any form of revolt against President Bush? No. The closest we've seen is a change in the makeup of Congress. When that failed to alter Bush's policies? Nothing.

Largest single number of protestors at any one time in the history of humanity.

The troops are still in Iraq. Polls show a majority of Americans oppose the U.S. presence in Iraq--yet President Bush insists, and our response is what? Nothing. President Bush says the troops stay in Iraq, and we are obeying. There was a modest effort to change Bush's position, but when it failed, the American people caved in to Bush's will.

There are other examples, but they pale in comparison to that one. You pointed out what the American people are saying. I pointed out what they are doing. As a result (according to that old saying about actions and words) my testimony carries precisely one thousand times more weight than yours.

The single greatest number of non-profit, democracy-supporting groups to have formed in an 8 year period in the history of the US.

And I've got an even better experiment in addition. How about we have one imperialist pro-war wingnut who wants the troops to stay in Iraq, and three bleeding-heart leftist hippies trying to convince him to pull the troops out.

Oops! Wait a second--that's exactly what is already happening in Iraq right now!!!

Gotcha. You talk in hypotheticals. I've got real scenarios that have already happened.

Yes, and no one talks about the thousands of dissenting soldiers sent to jail for refusing to make war in Vietnam... Maybe the soldiers don't want to go to prison? Maybe that's why the willfully went to Iraq (if you call that willfull).

Never. Nobody's forcing you to work for anything other than your survival. You work for money. That money is yours to spend as you please. Nobody's forcing you to spend your money on anything else; save it all for food and housing. And nobody's forcing you to make sunglasses for people, or serve them food, or pump their gas. The choice of job is yours. That's the way it should be.

So telling someone to starve or to take any entry level job you hate is not forcing them to take said job? No, the choice of job is not mine... I need money for college in order to qualify for a plethora of jobs (most of the ones I actually want to do, in fact), so I must take an entry level job until I can afford college. Now, without government assistance, and with the increasing cost of living, how long do you think I'm going to have to work for $8 an hour until I can get into college? So how long am I being forced to essentially do the same job? 'Cause face it, pumping gas, or making food, or cleaning, or whatever, is all essentially the same job.
 
I'm glad I'm living in a (more-or-less)capitalist dreamworld. :smug:

HAHAHAhaha... /sarcasm

Capitalist dreamworld? Were a full 1/4 of the population suffers from food insecurities and undernourishment?
 
Suggesting two possibilities: that next to nobody wants your system, or that it can't sustain itself. Maybe both. I don't care "why" your system fails; we need to have a system that works, and yours cannot.

Um... Bull. Cuba: according to the UN, one of the best health care systems in the world, no poverty line, no unemployment, one of the highest standard of living in any non-industrialized country, a GDP growth rate 3 times that of our own. A dash of democratic institution, and you've got yourself a pretty good model for communism. If we would just quit embargoing (is that a word?) them, I'd wager they'd do even better, though I may be stating the obvious here.

Yes I am. Nobody enjoys farming; I certainly don't, and I'm not gonna do it. If nobody farms the farms, everybody on the planet starves to death. And without ever knowing, I'm certain you're not a farmer either. Seriously: why don't you live in a log cabin in Montana and grow your own food?

We have to convince people to do farming somehow, in order to survive as a species. And you already said we have NO right to make people do it by force. Therefore only one option remains: entice people with goodies.

Hence, capitalism.

Farming, in the US, the bread basket of the world, farming averages a family $12k a year, putting them halfway down the poverty line. Why are they farmers then? Well, I lived in Kansas, and there you would get 'razed' for not joining the FFA, Future Farmers of America. It's apart of their culture, they're taught from a young age to respect people in that field (or those fields, if you'd excuse the pun). As I stated, people are happier doing jobs they like. If they like fresh air and open fields, it may make them happier to be a farmer, so they gravitate toward, especially if they grew up in a rural area on or near farms.
 
Stop the press, I just came up with another good one.

BasketCase naturally does not want to build a house or grow food for Greenpeace. Which means what? That Greenpeace is now homeless and hungry.

That's a negative incentive, right? Negative incentives are not allowed?

Then that means I have to build a house for Greenpeace and grow him food. But I don't naturally want to do that!


See? Your system is broken. The things you call "negative incentives" cannot be avoided.

I know I will never actually succeed in changing your viewpoint--that's not why I'm here. I'm here to test my viewpoints by seeing if there are any others out there that are possible in the real world. So you go right ahead and blab about could-have-been's all you want (just be aware that once in a while I'll call you a knucklehead or say "go to hell" or some such). If you wish to convert me to your viewpoint, Greenpeace, you're going to have to come up with a system that actually works.

Habitat for humanity... Volunteer numbers comparable to many large scale construction companies. Maybe you don't want to do them, but why? Is it really because of dislike for the activity, or cultural authority manifested through an adopted nature most pervasive in your local social context during upbringing?... I mean, I honestly agree with some of your points on authority. We adopt the behavior of the group because that is a method of natural, and therefor instinctual survival. The question is the social context. Our nature is to be responsive and shaped by nurture; instinctive malleability.
 
Teens and yunguns are a very disadvantaged group in the world. They have very little that is truly theirs, and few freedoms.

The result is that they have very little to lose. Any system that deposes the upper classes and makes everybody equal will automatically boot them higher up on the ladder.

As people hit middle age and have more stuff, they have more to lose, and they want to keep it.

And as people retire and the Reaper begins breathing down their necks, and they realize they are about to lose all their stuff no matter what they do, they begin worrying about the only things they can hold onto. Less material things. Their soul, perhaps. How they will be judged in the afterlife, if they believe in one. Or maybe they want to be praised and remembered fondly after their death, by those who come after them. For various reasons, the elderly start turning altruistic and become liberals again.


It's been proven with statistics. Liberals are generally the young or the old; conservatives are the middle-aged (i.e. career age). At all age levels, the motive is generally good old basic self-interest. "How do I get the most goodies???"

Coincidentally, your much more likely to remain a leftist later in life you go to college.
 
Exception, not the rule. There are some few in the U.S. who do go hungry (for various reasons) or homeless (also for various reasons), but most people are like me--they only worry about having fewer goodies. They take their food and shelter for granted.


Wrong. The Internet started out as a top secret project in the U.S. Department of Defense.

An instrument of knowledge and freedom, born from the military-industrial complex. Priceless. :lol:


And this beats the hell out of competing against other wild animals for your LIFE. Not impressed, Princey. I'm sticking with capitalism. Unless you can come up with something better? (I raised a challenge, and so far nobody has answered it--but then they've had all of one day)

http://www.worldfoodprize.org/assets/YouthInstitute/05proceedings/Jefferson-ScrantonHighchool.pdf

1/4 of the American population worries about getting enough food to subsist properly for the day. 1/4 risk malnourshiment, in the bread basket of the globe... Enough food produced annually to feed our entire population twice over, and we've got a food insecurity rate nearly as high as our morbid obesity rate!
 
Dude!! Eleven posts in a ROW!?!?!?

You ROCK!!! Sure as hell beats my record.

The bad news is, I'm not gonna bother answering any of them for a while. Mostly because I've only got half an hour before I gotta go to work--maybe I'll have time to answer them while at work...... :D

Well, another reason is because everybody else's eyeballs are already bleeding, and for me to swing back with 23 posts of my own will do absolutely no good right now. I certainly can't stress-test any of my own theories if everybody is too worn out to read them after slogging through yours.


God, I love teh Internet. :king:


Edit: Change of plan. Per my previous rules, anybody who calls an opponent stupid or otherwise insults their intelligence, has lost the argument.
The real question becomes does close-mind, right-wing ideologies make you stupid, or is it just stupid people who support them?
Viking Yeti, you just called me stupid. Game over. You lose.
 
The reson people dont like Capitolism is because it is about me. The basic idea is that you can make yourself go into the upper class even if it takes other people down. Thankfully people aren't that greedy. Communism is a much better on paper than Capitolism. It is based aroud the community. The problem is that people are fat and lazy and dont care about others. If they can not work and have the community work for them, they will. Communism would be great if people wernt lazy.

In the end u are right Capitolism works better, but Communism is a nice thought.

Also, lets not act like children and make fun of each other u two
 
But he hit me first!! :D

Seriously, though, the "stupid" line doesn't cut any ice. It's unnecessary in here, because all of you know that the little motorized tray that extends out of your PC case is not a cup holder. You pro-Communist folks are not stupid.

Wrong, yes. Stupid, no. :)
 
Dude!! Eleven posts in a ROW!?!?!?

You ROCK!!! Sure as hell beats my record.

The bad news is, I'm not gonna bother answering any of them for a while. Mostly because I've only got half an hour before I gotta go to work--maybe I'll have time to answer them while at work...... :D

Well, another reason is because everybody else's eyeballs are already bleeding, and for me to swing back with 23 posts of my own will do absolutely no good right now. I certainly can't stress-test any of my own theories if everybody is too worn out to read them after slogging through yours.


God, I love teh Internet. :king:


Edit: Change of plan. Per my previous rules, anybody who calls an opponent stupid or otherwise insults their intelligence, has lost the argument.

Viking Yeti, you just called me stupid. Game over. You lose.

I never called you stupid, want to respond to my last post?
 
Greenpeace: listen up. Pay attention. Achtung.

I was not talking to you. I was yelling at Viking. I think you did commit a debate foul earlier on, but I forgot the details. If you'd kept hush-hush about it I would have forgotten completely. :D
 
Okay, now that I've got some spare time to slog through Viking's awesome volume of posts.

A wolf, like nearly any other mammal in existence, will rarely if ever eat more than it NEEDS.
Wrong. Wolves do, in fact, eat a lot more than they need. At mealtime, they don't eat all they NEED, they eat all they CAN. Because sometimes they go for as long as two weeks without a meal. The same for lions. The alpha males eat first, and most. At the expense of the other lions. Almost all intelligent species are like this; they eat as much as they can, and try to stash away whatever they cannot eat. Greed has a great deal of survival value; it is not learned, it is instinctive.

It doesn't help you survive as an ape to steal food from the other members of your tribe until they starve.
When there isn't enough food to go around, what do we humans do?

We go to war against each other.

Soviet Russia's five year plans... From producing almost no steel to becoming one of the world's leading producers of steel in just under 15 years, a feat that took the US about 80 years. It was successful.
A broken clock is still right twice a day.

No thing or being in this world is so totally screwed up that it does absolutely everything totally wrong. Except rap music, that's the only exception. Yes, Russia beat us at a few things, such as steel. But the U.S. beat Russia at most other things.

Oh, by the way, how is it not forced labor (wage-slavery) to tell a person, as in the US industrial revolution, work your 16 hour shift for less that $2 an hour or I'll fire you and you can starve to death?
Because in the U.S., the workers have always had the freedom to walk away and go get another job. And that, in the end, is what they did. They told their employers "we will not work for you until working conditions improve".


On a side not, communists, socialist, anarchists, and the entire-left wing, tend to have hirer IQ's. By nearly 15 points actually.
Wrong. Intelligence has no known relationship to political bent. I've read a wide variety of studies on the subject, and they all reach widely varying conclusions. One link I just read suggested that the world's smartest people are LIBERTARIANS. Libertarians are neither left-wing, nor right-wing. They're a mix of moderate liberal and conservative ideas. In my opinion, that's the way it should be--the smartest people are going to be willing to depart from cookie-cutter leftist and rightist philosophies whenever circumstances warrant.

On a side note: I really wish the natives hadn't been destroyed. I think they would've taken, as they had been prior to their annihilation, a completely different sociological evolutionary path. Funny, kinda'; to peaceful to survive... Really unfortunate.
For a system to be practical, it must be able to protect itself from known threats against it. The Native Americans failed.

Addenum: also, they were willing to use terrorist methods in wartime, so the Hell with them.

Largest single number of protestors at any one time in the history of humanity.
And when the protests fail? Nothing. Americans are accepting Bush's leadership. There are lots of insurgencies and revolutions happening around the world right now--why not in America???


Yes, and no one talks about the thousands of dissenting soldiers sent to jail for refusing to make war in Vietnam... Maybe the soldiers don't want to go to prison?
Wasn't talking about the soldiers' viewpoint here. I was talking about George Bush's viewpoint. Greenpeace was all up in my grille about how people would do the right thing more often if the few "good" people actually got a chance to sit next to their fellow citizens and coach them to defy authority. Not true. The majority of Americans are telling George Bush that they want the troops out of Iraq. Bush is not listening. I've got the King of All Counterexamples there. Bush is staying on his course, and while American citizens are all :gripe: about it, they're accepting it.


Now, without government assistance, and with the increasing cost of living, how long do you think I'm going to have to work for $8 an hour until I can get into college? So how long am I being forced to essentially do the same job? 'Cause face it, pumping gas, or making food, or cleaning, or whatever, is all essentially the same job.
No. They are all different jobs. They just pay the same.

While I was in college, I met a whole lot of students who did in fact put themselves through college by working 8$-an-hour jobs. The difference between you and them is they didn't :cry: about it. They put their noses to the grindstones and did the work. Now they have diplomas. And backbones. Certainly more backbone than me--my folks paid for my college ed.

Um... Bull. Cuba: according to the UN, one of the best health care systems in the world, no poverty line, no unemployment, one of the highest standard of living in any non-industrialized country, a GDP growth rate 3 times that of our own. A dash of democratic institution, and you've got yourself a pretty good model for communism.
Same reply as earlier: broken clock. Living standards are higher in any part of the Free World (except Detroit), and the Free World DOES have a great deal more than "a dash" of democratic institution. Good model for Communism? No. Good model for totalitarianism.

Habitat for humanity... Volunteer numbers comparable to many large scale construction companies. Maybe you don't want to do them, but why? Is it really because of dislike for the activity
As a member of Boy Scouts of America, I did plenty. Hell, I've planted more trees in my lifetime than any three Greenpeace activists (the environmental group, not the CFC member). Did I enjoy it? Yes. But eventually I realized I was merely enjoying it because everyone else around me wanted me to, so I hung up the shovel, put the merit badges away, and started putting more effort into molding my own life instead of letting other people manipulate me.

1/4 of the American population worries about getting enough food to subsist properly for the day.
Just about everybody worries about accidents at nuclear power plants. Nobody worries about hepatitis.

Guess which one kills more people......? I've got lots more examples of this, but that one should be sufficient. Human worries are irrational. When I looked up actual malnutrition problems on the Web, I got indeterminate results, because Americans are kind of crazy--prone to overeating, prone to obsessive-compulsive dieting, prone to eating what they like instead of what they should. In short, most of America's nutrition problems appear to be self-inflicted by poor choices rather than by poor circumstances.


Phew. That took a lotta work. Frankly, however, this post was a lot shorter than I had expected it to be.
 
I think both goverments work just as well and this is pointless to fight over. Both of you are right and wrong. As is said earlier, capitolism works ok, and communism looks cool but hasn't been used right in the past and probubly will not ever be used correctly. Both are very bad systems.
 
Dude!! Eleven posts in a ROW!?!?!?

You ROCK!!! Sure as hell beats my record.

That was amazing. I may never witness a greater feat. I'll never feel bad again for that time I posted 3 in a row. Thank you, Viking. Thank you.
 
That was amazing. I may never witness a greater feat. I'll never feel bad again for that time I posted 3 in a row. Thank you, Viking. Thank you.

You know, it's like quantity over quality. Stupid people often talk louder to seem smart. That sort of thing. ;D
 
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