A question to Communists:

[BasketCase]

But you didn't mention any incentives that you offered during the time of the experiment.

Actually, I did. You missed it: paychecks to firemen.

But since you can't be bothered to make any effort at all, I'm going to do the work for you: I continued to receive the benefits of the U.S. military and police department (as well as that of the fire department, which I already covered and which your lazy ass missed). I continued to receive electricity, water, phone service, and Internet service--in exchange for the artificial incentive I imposed on the utility companies in the form of money.

It exists until everyone who wants it is prevented physically from aprt in it

No it does not. Your system cannot exist when artificial incentives exist, by your own rules. And as long as you are on American soil, you are exercising artificial incentives through your tax dollars.

Illegal immigration (in terms of existing illegally under America without being really violent towards law enforcement like gangs for example).

That's not Greenpeacocracy. They're still living in American capitalism (and receiving paychecks, therefore participating in artificial incentives, which is breaking YOUR law).

Prove that you replaced American capitalism with Greenpeacocracy. Your word is not enough. I'll need something concrete.

And if you don't (again not because you're being forced but because you'll volunteerly accepted) what is preventing people from how to effectively deal with fire and reduce fire hazards with the incentive of safety?

We've already been through that a million times, for Christ's sake!!!

You keep asking the same question and somehow expecting a different answer. I'm gonna spam you with the same answer every time: because people don't have enough time (or brain cells) to be a farmer AND a police officer AND a fireman AND a soldier AND a computer technician. Human beings simply cannot do it. They have not been able to for thousands of years. Specialization is REQUIRED for any society to survive.


I'll prove it, using you as a guinea pig: Your computer catches fire. How do you put it out?

 

[greenpeace]

I don't feel like creating a new thread and all, so:

Actually, I did. You missed it: paychecks to firemen.

But since you can't be bothered to make any effort at all, I'm going to do the work for you: I continued to receive the benefits of the U.S. military and police department (as well as that of the fire department, which I already covered and which your lazy ass missed). I continued to receive electricity, water, phone service, and Internet service--in exchange for the artificial incentive I imposed on the utility companies in the form of money.

How about you try not using electronics, not drinking water, not using the phone, not using the internet, not starting a fire, staying clear from violent areas (although the police probably won't help you much there anyway), not get invaded for 10 seconds.

No it does not. Your system cannot exist when artificial incentives exist, by your own rules. And as long as you are on American soil, you are exercising artificial incentives through your tax dollars.

The society says nothing about the actions of outsiders acting against outsiders. And what taxes?

That's not Greenpeacocracy. They're still living in American capitalism (and receiving paychecks, therefore participating in artificial incentives, which is breaking YOUR law).

I never said illegal immigation was the society, I said it was an entity that did not obey American laws on American soil without militarily competing with the US.

Prove that you replaced American capitalism with Greenpeacocracy. Your word is not enough. I'll need something concrete.

Are you asking me to send you a video of me staring off into space?

We've already been through that a million times, for Christ's sake!!!

You keep asking the same question and somehow expecting a different answer. I'm gonna spam you with the same answer every time: because people don't have enough time (or brain cells) to be a farmer AND a police officer AND a fireman AND a soldier AND a computer technician. Human beings simply cannot do it. They have not been able to for thousands of years. Specialization is REQUIRED for any society to survive.

One doesn't need to be all those things without artifical incentives. Specialization can occur to a certain point (especially in mutually beneficial situations ie firefighting so that the entire population doesn't get burnt). Of course, I'm not going to say it will compete in terms of productivity with Capitalism at all since the products of Capitalism are not at all guarenteed to be worth the pain of labor.

I'll prove it, using you as a guinea pig: Your computer catches fire. How do you put it out?

I have no idea because a firefighting force knows how to. However, if there was a paticularly fire hazardous material that could not be conventially extinguished, there would be incentive for enough people to know how to extinguish it. Even if it wasn't, again if people would rather die in a fire than learn the skill to fight it, that is their choice.

 

[BasketCase]

How about you try not using electronics, not drinking water, not using the phone, not using the internet, not starting a fire, staying clear from violent areas (although the police probably won't help you much there anyway), not get invaded for 10 seconds.

In order from first to last: for the same reason you just used electronics to write that last post. Because I need water to survive. Because the Internet gives me more freedom than your pathetic excuse for a government does. Because the neighbors might start a fire that spreads to MY house, and also because a fire might start accidentally. The phone? I need that in case my neighbor sets his house on fire or in case a fire starts in MY house accidentally or in case my Internet breaks. I need the police even though I'm not in a violent area, because gang members might walk over from their area to my area and rob my house. And the U.S. has already been invaded more than a hundred times since 9/11.

All the things you listed are things I cannot do. I have no control over any of them. And that's why I (and you, don't lie to me) need all the above services.

Are you asking me to send you a video of me staring off into space?

If you're staring off into space, you're staring into space while living in American Capitalism (of course, I'm assuming you live in the U.S.)

That's not what I asked for. I asked you to prove that you replaced American Capitalism with Greenpeacocracy. I didn't say how, you figure it out. At the very least, you would be required to depose American authority in your area. Prove that you did that. SHould be easy because it will show up in the news (and the U.S. military on your doorstep) if you try to do it.

I have no idea because a firefighting force knows how to.

Bingo.

I rest my BasketCase. You're a hypocrite who's perfectly content to take advantage of American Capitalism and exploit other people such as firemen as long as it's to your benefit.

 

[greenpeace]

In order from first to last: for the same reason you just used electronics to write that last post.

Try not posting.

Because I need water to survive.

You can't go 10 seconds without frinking water?

Because the Internet gives me more freedom than your pathetic excuse for a government does.

This might be hard to believe, but its possible to live for 10 seconds without the internet. Also, why are you so harsh on yourself?

Because the neighbors might start a fire that spreads to MY house, and also because a fire might start accidentally.

Well, tell your neighboors to not start a fire for 10 seconds.

The phone? I need that in case my neighbor sets his house on fire or in case a fire starts in MY house accidentally or in case my Internet breaks.

I think you aren't taking much of a risk going 10 seconds without it.

I need the police even though I'm not in a violent area, because gang members might walk over from their area to my area and rob my house.

And they would have to run pretty fast in order to get to you in 10 seconds.

And the U.S. has already been invaded more than a hundred times since 9/11.

You'd have to be very very unlucky if a country suprised attacked you in the ten seconds you weren't apart of the society.

All the things you listed are things I cannot do. I have no control over any of them. And that's why I (and you, don't lie to me) need all the above services.

Not for ten seconds. And if you can go ten seconds than it existed. Now you could talk about sustainability but that would be a completely different thing.

If you're staring off into space, you're staring into space while living in American Capitalism (of course, I'm assuming you live in the U.S.)

But I'm not violtaing any of the rules of the society I described.

That's not what I asked for. I asked you to prove that you replaced American Capitalism with Greenpeacocracy. I didn't say how, you figure it out. At the very least, you would be required to depose American authority in your area. Prove that you did that. SHould be easy because it will show up in the news (and the U.S. military on your doorstep) if you try to do it.

Well, since a massive body of people are violating US law without militarily competing, than its a simple of matter of whether or not the society can exist irrelevant of outside forces.
The vast majority of existance of humans was in the time before agriculture (hunter-gatherer) and an isolated body of theirs easily and often did go by society rules unless they were brought with hard conditions (in which case a "dictato" generally emerged). At least one had no artifical incentives (especially since there was nothing really to offer) and combine that with a lack of people harming each other on the basis of the incentive of it probably being fatal to the agressor (one less hunter mainly) and a lack of real leadership anyway, you have the society.

Bingo.

I rest my BasketCase. You're a hypocrite who's perfectly content to take advantage of American Capitalism and exploit other people such as firemen as long as it's to your benefit.

If I argued that drinking and driving was bad and had 50 DUIs, that doesn't mean drinking and driving is bad.

 

[BasketCase]

Try not posting.

You try not posting.

Oh, wait. You just wrote one. You're a hypocrite who's perfectly happy to exploit the Internet when it suits your purposes.

You can't go 10 seconds without frinking water?

I cannot have the water company turn off the service for ten seconds, because it is not my house. I'm bootlegging a room from a friend. Have been for four years.

I cannot turn off the police department or the fire department or the hospitals. Or the military. I keep telling you, you have to REMOVE the current authority, and that's only going to happen with violence. Which would show up on the news instantly. That's how I know your claim that you created a Greenpeacocracy is bullcrap.

But I'm not violtaing any of the rules of the society I described.

It's called a Greenpeacocracy already. And yes, you did break one of its rules while staring off into space. Because one of your rules is that the only permitted authority is the decentralized authority of all the voters. You are living in another authority. Several authorities, actually. The police department and the U.S. military and the IRS. You must remove those. Until you do, a Greenpeacocracy is impossible.

The vast majority of existance of humans was in the time before agriculture (hunter-gatherer) and an isolated body of theirs easily and often did go by society rules unless they were brought with hard conditions (in which case a "dictato" generally emerged). At least one had no artifical incentives (especially since there was nothing really to offer) and combine that with a lack of people harming each other on the basis of the incentive of it probably being fatal to the agressor (one less hunter mainly) and a lack of real leadership anyway, you have the society.

Then why are you living in this society instead of your ideal one?

Edit: Next three lines deleted. I just remembered--you're living in my society because I've got the police (and also the U.S. military) saying you live MY way. Not yours. The voters say we do it my way, and I've got M1A1 Abrams tanks with really big guns backing me up.

See? Artificial incentive. You live the way I want you to in order to avoid getting shot.

 

[greenpeace]

You try not posting.

Oh, wait. You just wrote one. You're a hypocrite who's perfectly happy to exploit the Internet when it suits your purposes.

What does this have to do with what we were debating?

I cannot have the water company turn off the service for ten seconds, because it is not my house. I'm bootlegging a room from a friend. Have been for four years.

I cannot turn off the police department or the fire department or the hospitals. Or the military. I keep telling you, you have to REMOVE the current authority, and that's only going to happen with violence. Which would show up on the news instantly. That's how I know your claim that you created a Greenpeacocracy is bullcrap.

You never used any of those utilities. If I were to do a complete founding, those utilities would still exist, but that doesn't mean the society doesn't.

It's called a Greenpeacocracy already. And yes, you did break one of its rules while staring off into space. Because one of your rules is that the only permitted authority is the decentralized authority of all the voters. You are living in another authority. Several authorities, actually. The police department and the U.S. military and the IRS. You must remove those. Until you do, a Greenpeacocracy is impossible.

They never intruded onto the actions I was taking.

Then why are you living in this society instead of your ideal one?

Cowardice, an inability to set up an adequate food supply, inability to be charismatic enough to convince others overcome their fear even if they wished to join.

Edit: Next three lines deleted. I just remembered--you're living in my society because I've got the police (and also the U.S. military) saying you live MY way. Not yours. The voters say we do it my way, and I've got M1A1 Abrams tanks with really big guns backing me up.

See? Artificial incentive. You live the way I want you to in order to avoid getting shot.

Yes, because we all know that US policy isn't violated continuosly.

 

[BasketCase]

They never intruded onto the actions I was taking.

I don't care. Your rules require that no other authority EXIST.

an inability to set up an adequate food supply

Same as my reason.

And that's the bottom line, so to speak. You find capitalism preferable to either of the other alternatives: farming your own food or starving to death.

 

[gangleri2001]

This thread should be closed!!!

 

[Rossiya]

Never !

 

[greenpeace]

I don't care. Your rules require that no other authority EXIST.

There is no existing authority if the "authority" doesn't do anything to the community members.

Same as my reason.

And that's the bottom line, so to speak. You find capitalism preferable to either of the other alternatives: farming your own food or starving to death.

Thats not true, I simply have no way of learning how to farm and actually setting up a farm and do so in the new society without taking huge risks that occur solely due to America's threats. If I new how to set up a permaculture farm, could, and I was less cowardly/less threats were made against me and others (of which whom I do not want harmed) I'd pick the new society any day of the week.

 

[BasketCase]

There is no existing authority if the "authority" doesn't do anything to the community members.

Yes there is. You simply haven't been caught yet.

The world is a lot larger than you. Even if said authority is doing nothing to you, it is doing things to others.

Everybody thinks they're the center of the Universe. Well, except me. I'm currently sixteen miles to the left and eighty feet below it.

If I new how to set up a permaculture farm, could, and I was less cowardly/less threats were made against me and others (of which whom I do not want harmed) I'd pick the new society any day of the week.

Yep. But this is the real world, therefore you don't.

For fifty pages and a thousand posts, you've been all about "what if" and "could" and I'm all about what IS.

 

[greenpeace]

Yes there is. You simply haven't been caught yet.

The world is a lot larger than you. Even if said authority is doing nothing to you, it is doing things to others.

Everybody thinks they're the center of the Universe. Well, except me. I'm currently sixteen miles to the left and eighty feet below it.

Well, North Korea and its non-capitalistic representational society exists, does that mean the US doesn't exist?

Yep. But this is the real world, therefore you don't.

For fifty pages and a thousand posts, you've been all about "what if" and "could" and I'm all about what IS.

First of all every new idea was "what if" including the American form of society.
Second, this is not really even "new" since the aspects of the society have existed in numerous societies. For example, the direct democracy form of government in not at all new, and hunter-gatherer soiceties certainly did not always rely heavily on trade (since there was little to trade anyways).

 

[BasketCase]

Well, North Korea and its non-capitalistic representational society exists, does that mean the US doesn't exist?

That made completely no sense.

The U.S. authorities have not arrested you. Does that mean U.S. authority does not exist?

That's how you're supposed to do it. Oh, and by the way, the answer is no. If U.S. authorities are not bashing down your door and arresting you, they still exist. Your idealistic and impossible new system requires that American authority be

DESTROYED.

For American authority to leave you alone is not enough. You said it yourself--only the decentralized will of the voters is allowed to EXIST.

First of all every new idea was "what if"

What if you quit being a delusional idealistic knucklehead and got your anchor firmly planted in reality again?

There's a perfectly normal "what if"--except it will never happen.

Greenpeacocracy will never happen.

Second, this is not really even "new" since the aspects of the society have existed in numerous societies.

Nope. It's not new at all. It's old, outdated, and barbaric, and we evolved past it a long time ago. Well, most of us have, anyway.

Yes, we did in fact once exist mostly as hunter-gatherer societies. WE DID NOT WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY AND STOPPED DOING SO AS SOON AS IT BECAME POSSIBLE. You included.

 

[greenpeace]

That made completely no sense.

The U.S. authorities have not arrested you. Does that mean U.S. authority does not exist?

That's how you're supposed to do it. Oh, and by the way, the answer is no. If U.S. authorities are not bashing down your door and arresting you, they still exist. Your idealistic and impossible new system requires that American authority be

DESTROYED.

For American authority to leave you alone is not enough. You said it yourself--only the decentralized will of the voters is allowed to EXIST.

But in terms of authorities within (keyword:within) the society, which is where all the rules are enforced over (what an outside party does to an outside authority is beyond the authority of the society), there is no authority. Otherwise the society would not only have to control everyone (which in itself would violate other rules), we would have to control the animals, the universe, and the laws of physics.

What if you quit being a delusional idealistic knucklehead and got your anchor firmly planted in reality again?

What if you quit making scrolling through this thread a little more hard.

There's a perfectly normal "what if"--except it will never happen.

Greenpeacocracy will never happen.

Lets go back in time to lets say the 1600's. There is no more evidence that the American type of government would ever exist (in fact it would seem rather laughable) than the society I described (assuming you don't account those little experiments we made as "exist").

Nope. It's not new at all. It's old, outdated, and barbaric, and we evolved past it a long time ago. Well, most of us have, anyway.

Yes, we did in fact once exist mostly as hunter-gatherer societies. WE DID NOT WANT TO LIVE THAT WAY AND STOPPED DOING SO AS SOON AS IT BECAME POSSIBLE. You included.

Woah, just because we went from one thing to the next doesn't mean it was a step up. For example, Europeans went from inhabiting solely the European continent to nearly owning the world through colonies. However, those colonies had some very disastoruous affects on the natives (as well as the Europeans since it was a part of the reason for the start of WWI).

In fact, it makes sense that incentive leaning societies became dominant because they basically had a means of forcing huge quantities of labor relative to population size to occur despite the desire of the citizens. It also makes sense that centralized governments with strict means of enforcing laws came about since it is again much more efficient at taking over other lands.
The ironic part is that the invention of mass media and the granting of near complete speech by the dominant society provides a means for a society that tends away from such tendicies.

 

[ainwood]

Moderator Action: If there is anything else to be discussed on this subject, it can be done in a new thread.