A thread for small ideas

I disagree. Look at Tolkien's Dwarves at the height of their power, ultimately the source for most modern fantasy dwarves.
Even the Dwarven host which attacked Sauron when he invaded Eregion was not comprised of a mithril-clad horde! :p Most references to Khazad-dum in the Second Age indicate that the metal was relatively rare among the greater mass of Dwarves, and indeed they mined massive iron veins for the majority of their needs. As far as I recall, Mithril was never really at any time (Besides likely for Durin's first folk) used to forge wholesale suits of mail and weapons for each Dwarven footsoldier.

EDIT: I am certainly not saying it should be impossible to procure and forge such a large armament, only appropriately expensive and thus even more of the remarkable advantage which mithril should be.
 
Lord Haldane said:
This will likely prove unpopular, but I feel that Mithril weapons would be best allocated out through individual purchases rather than automatic dispersal. Even when harnessed as a resource, it is hard to envision such a treasure ever being so ubiquitous that each and every soldier is given that gift by default. It should ideally be rather expensive, bought from a Weaponsmith, and I believe would further elevate Mithril as a truly rare and wondrous substance.

I'm afraid I also disagree, mythril (I just like this spelling) veins would be just as rich as copper and iron veins but simply much harder to extract, refine, and work. This is already simulated in the HUGE :science: cost it takes to unlock it, as well as the ramifications of ignoring other techs for the time spent on it.

But that did give me an idea. What if finite resources were actually finite? I do agree that a single mine of copper shouldn't sustain an entire empire for hundreds of years. What if mines had a semi-random chance to "dry up" after x amount of turns, but to a lesser extent all mines had a higher chance to "pop" the various finite resources? This would certainly make earth mana much more desirable.

EDIT: @Lord Haldane: I agree actually, but I think the effect of charging for mythril would also add more micro to a game that already has a ton of it. Lore wise it makes perfect sense (assuming that Erebus is that closely related to Middle Earth) but I also like the idea that all that science is going towards something definite rather than something that will just cost more in the long run. You could even argue that since commerce = science you're technically already paying for it (ish).
 
I'm afraid I also disagree, mythril (I just like this spelling) veins would be just as rich as copper and iron veins but simply much harder to extract, refine, and work. This is already simulated in the HUGE :science: cost it takes to unlock it, as well as the ramifications of ignoring other techs for the time spent on it.
Has this been stated officially? My understanding of mithril is obviously derived more so from Tolkien and the assumption that it is indeed rare, so of course disregard my thoughts if it is intended to be abundant.

But that did give me an idea. What if finite resources were actually finite? I do agree that a single mine of copper shouldn't sustain an entire empire for hundreds of years. What if mines had a semi-random chance to "dry up" after x amount of turns, but to a lesser extent all mines had a higher chance to "pop" the various finite resources? This would certainly make earth mana much more desirable.
Agreed. I believe this actually happened in Civilisation III with resources like aluminium and uranium... another fine strategic element which could be added, I think.
 
I agree with the notion of making mythril less common

I think the most odeal option, would be to make units slightly more expensive with various metals.
 
Lord Haldane said:
Has this been stated officially?
Not at all, sorry, just my interpretation of it. Didn't intend to be misleading, :blush:
I see exactly where you're coming from with the rare thing though. If the finite resources option was somehow instated, to compensate for the assumed rarity what if mythril just had a much higher chance of drying up sooner? It would prevent an extra drain on your economy (by not having to buy it as a promo) and make you really concentrate on which units to build while you have mythril available to you.
 
Even the Dwarven host which attacked Sauron when he invaded Eregion was not comprised of a mithril-clad horde! :p Most references to Khazad-dum in the Second Age indicate that the metal was relatively rare among the greater mass of Dwarves, and indeed they mined massive iron veins for the majority of their needs. As far as I recall, Mithril was never really at any time (Besides likely for Durin's first folk) used to forge wholesale suits of mail and weapons for each Dwarven footsoldier.

EDIT: I am certainly not saying it should be impossible to procure and forge such a large armament, only appropriately expensive and thus even more of the remarkable advantage which mithril should be.

No. Mithril only became (didn't start that way, but was very valuable) rare because the source of it was lost to the dwarves. Thats it.
 
No. Mithril only became (didn't start that way, but was very valuable) rare because the source of it was lost to the dwarves. Thats it.
It would seem that you are approaching the question in a manner running entirely contrary to this thread of conversation - the intrinsic value of mithril is wholly irrelevant to the issue at hand. Value is tied to rarity for the purposes of game abstraction and, if we are to discuss mithril's circulation in earlier ages of Middle Earth, you must at least keep the purview of our concerns to FF-relevant determinations. Issues of time scale aside, mithril was a finite resource and the Dwarves of Moria did not bathe in it as if it were mere water! Its value to the Dwarves of Elder Days is most often cited as ten times that of gold, and indeed their lust for further veins is now almost proverbial.

Regardless of our differing conclusions in the affairs of Moria, NeverTide's post indicates that we really must establish some sort of definitive answer over mithril's abundance in Erebus. I'll pop over to the Lore forum and try to bring back something useful from the expedition. :D
 
Agreed. I believe this actually happened in Civilisation III with resources like aluminium and uranium... another fine strategic element which could be added, I think.

As someone whose first ever modding experience with Civ was painstakingly removing that feature for every resource every game, let me explain to you why I (and hopefully I am not alone) hated it:

It has nothing to do with the effect of resources on an empire as a whole - if a resource runs out, you go and find a new one and then you're back to where you were. It has to do with the effect on cities founded near the resource that goes away.
Cities are founded based on the terrain that is around them, i.e. next to a river, right amount of hills, forests, and plains, on or off the coast, etc. Resource bonuses are a critical part of that planning, and to have one spontaneously vanish with no warning and no way to fight it can completely devastate a star city. Having one of your cities suddenly just get worse can invalidate hours of gameplay investment.
Things that change your situation and force new strategies can be fun, and they have their place. They should be obstacles, though, not permanent changes. An obstacle is characterized by the ability to overcome it and eventually return to where you were before. When a resource ran out in civ3, that was the equivalent (in city yields) of losing a entire citizen (or two, sometimes). Imagine if there was a random event that said "one of your citizens is now permanently unavailable for any purpose, but still requires food and affects you cities health and happiness".
The event where goblins dump waste on your land and the food yield is permanently reduced by one is a current example of this kind of effect, although it does give you a nature mana option. I don't think there is a single event in the entire game that I hate getting more than this one. Fortunately 19 out of 20 times it's happened on a mountain or outside a city radius.

Simplified, my point is this: don't put a goal in the game (resources in this case) that requires effort to acquire but can then be taken away entirely at random. Make it:
A - reversible, either time or a specific player action restores the loss.
B - preventable, through means that is readily available (goblin dumping frequently occurs long before having nature mana is possible.)
C - optional, tie the loss to something that is not a practical necessity.
 
It would seem that you are approaching the question in a manner running entirely contrary to this thread of conversation - the intrinsic value of mithril is wholly irrelevant to the issue at hand. Value is tied to rarity for the purposes of game abstraction and, if we are to discuss mithril's circulation in earlier ages of Middle Earth, you must at least keep the purview of our concerns to FF-relevant determinations. Issues of time scale aside, mithril was a finite resource and the Dwarves of Moria did not bathe in it as if it were mere water! Its value to the Dwarves of Elder Days is most often cited as ten times that of gold, and indeed their lust for further veins is now almost proverbial.

Regardless of our differing conclusions in the affairs of Moria, NeverTide's post indicates that we really must establish some sort of definitive answer over mithril's abundance in Erebus. I'll pop over to the Lore forum and try to bring back something useful from the expedition. :D

Your fancy words do not scare me.

I do not agree with the idea of paying for mithril items, makes no sense. You have to spend a lot of resources researching it in the first place and there is always the chance you do not have access to it after you get the techs needed. This just seems like a penalty to me. Also...mithril being the metal of choice of elites is already covered by the fact that there are units you cannot build without the tech.
 
Getting off the LotR track..

Can Khazad siege engines not be 1/2 str like everyone else's? They have absolutely no method whatsoever to handle stacks in the field, due to their inability to hire Arcane (Dwarven SHadows are REALLY Deep into tech, and only collateral 3 units; For low damage to boot). Like, let Trebs and Cannons have higher base strength, and low (Or no base) City attack to boot?
 
Getting off the LotR track..

Can Khazad siege engines not be 1/2 str like everyone else's? They have absolutely no method whatsoever to handle stacks in the field, due to their inability to hire Arcane (Dwarven SHadows are REALLY Deep into tech, and only collateral 3 units; For low damage to boot). Like, let Trebs and Cannons have higher base strength, and low (Or no base) City attack to boot?

I could see the dwarves having superior siege weaponry, or even a few UU ones that simulate the horrors of medieval warfare. Things like the infernal machine (shot approx. 50 to 100 arrows at a time), Ballistae, Flamethrowers (or the even more dreaded Phlegm throwers).
 
Getting off the LotR track..

Can Khazad siege engines not be 1/2 str like everyone else's? They have absolutely no method whatsoever to handle stacks in the field, due to their inability to hire Arcane (Dwarven SHadows are REALLY Deep into tech, and only collateral 3 units; For low damage to boot). Like, let Trebs and Cannons have higher base strength, and low (Or no base) City attack to boot?

Siege weapons do collateral damage with ranged attacks.
I find that to be a generally useful way to use them
 
Siege weapons do collateral damage with ranged attacks.
I find that to be a generally useful way to use them

Yeah, but it's like .1 or so. That's why I'm saying they need a bit higher of a base strength. I mean, Siege does frankly ridiculous damage to units in cities (I also think the AoE spells are ridiculous, but moreso them), but outside cities they're almost worthless. That's why I think the Khazad ones need a change (Because they have no other collateral damage out in the field)
 
Yeah I was playing with that before (I used to abuse artillery like crazy in vanilla Civ), and artillery are utterly useless in the field. Not weak, but useless. Granted, Dwarven Cannons in particular are quite vicious against units in cities, and they seem to gain exp for all the collateral damage as well, because the first few good bombardments tend to gain levels (especially if each one you take the +collateral promo).

I think it could be cool to see a couple larger weapons (ie- ballista, scorpion, etc) that were useful outside of a city. Plus, maybe the disparity between city/not is a bit large - cannons historically saw great use in field battles (though not catapults, so is the balance between the two too hard to juggle?).
 
Personally, I think cannons should have no strength. Zip. Nada. Zilch. Zero.
And the silly bombard function should be removed.

They should have only one function, ranged attack, which would reduce city defences AND Cause collateral damage with each shot.

I think it should be made powerful enough to be effective in the field or cities, with maybe just a moderate bonus for cities like +50%

I'd also like to see some internal distinction between small arms ranged attacks, and siege ranged attacks. So that I could make Monstrous Creatures more vulnerable to only the latter.
 
Hmm, it seems that there's no Immune to Poison promotion. I'd like to suggest adding one. Very simple to do.

there's only poison resistance, which isn't quite good enough.
 
How about a promotion tied to spending a turn on a mana node? Call it Mana Tap, probably would be several different promotions (one for each mana type?) which would give a temporary boost to the unit in terms of magic resistance, movement speed, bonus damage or other minor bumps.
 
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