A whole new EMC?

[aelf]

As some of you may know, I can't get my hands on BTS yet, so right now I'm pretty much stuck in limbo with regards to my favourite pastime on this forum (well, not when the update is very long and complicated ). So, why don't we do a little bit of brainstorming?

Actually, most of you will probably be left out of it, since I've thought of some appealing ideas that I'm raring to put into practice But I'll tell you guys about them and ask for your opinions anyway. Although this is kind of like a spoiler, there's not much else I can do right now (I will also be doing something about updating the UU Guide to include BTS very soon), so here we go.

I think EMC: BtS or EMC (BtS) sounds a little unwieldy, so I'm going to call it the Age of Legends series. Why? I plan to examine and use less orthodox strategies in the series. For the first game, which I might call Age of Legends: The League of Shadows, we will be using the Philosophical trait for espionage. That's right, we won't be lightbulbing as much. And we probably won't bother investing commerce on espionage. We'll rely on courthouses, jails, etc and Great Spies. Yup, Philosophical will be used to generate as many Great Spies as possible. Sure, we would probably want to run some scientists for early game research, but we can rotate them around so that we focus on getting a Great Spy or two first. And, as you might have guessed, we'd need the Great Wall.

With mastery in the field of espionage, we shouldn't find it difficult to keep up with the AI's research in the early to mid game. Espionage will also be valuable in the later eras, especially in light of corporations. I won't go into the poison the AI's capital repeatedly tactic, though, since that borders on being an exploit and would probably be nerfed in future patches anyway. In fact, the same could be argued about using espionage with corporations, since the AI seems unaware of the full effects of the latter, so we'll see about that.

I'm thinking of using Suleiman as our leader. He has the Philosophical trait and also the Imperialistic trait that we have yet to use. It would be interesting and challenging to use the latter, since we will have to balance REX with building the Great Wall. I also plan not to fight many wars, maybe even waiting for Jannisaries for the first war, so the GG generation bonus might be slightly left out. However, do note that Imperialistic and the Great Wall have great synergy that lasts till the end of the game, so we peaceniks will have some advantage if we are attacked.

So, what do you guys think? Anything to add? I hope I can get this game started next week.


PS: One more thing, I'd probably only have time finish one game before I begin my studies again. I hope I can do at least another one before I get too busy.

 

[NaZdReG]

Aelf,

you know I play levels below you, but hopefully this is helpful. I've played like 12 games at monarch (i'm home for a while.. lots of time on my hands) and with the exception of 1 game I have chased the great wall every single time.

with stone its 2 forests chopped, regardless of speed. without its a little more but so what. masonry becomes a priority tech early as possible.
(as dutch I went mining, BW, wheel, masonry, writing, alpha, currency)
build order: workboat, worker, chop worker, settler, great wall
yeah risky, if you can fit a warrior in there its not a bad idea

Ai is not super early aggressive, so even 2 warriors per city will keep your power level up while you find iron or copper. its the random even barb spawns of 4 archers or 5 axes that are worrysome. but with the wall you don't need to worry.

I let the 2 gpps (great spy) cook while I tech to alphabet to produce spys.
(you'll find this part a little different, writing now leads directly to math so early construction by the ai is problematic)

infiltrate your first spy in whoever is or is going to be the tech leader. start producing spys immediately. if they do not have alpha they cannot effectively counter your spies.
resting 5 turns in capitol they get 50% discount to stealing techs. I got iron last game for like 500 eps. not bad when the infiltrate got me over 9500 points.
you can beat their capitol down with sabotaged production (wiped oracle 3 times so a backward civ got it instead ), stolen treasuries, poisoned waters. if they get a tech steal it instead of trading for it. beeline currency and sell these stolen techs to keep your treasury full.

2nd spy good to settle or build scotland yard. once you get a courthouse you can really get the spy points building.

important to figure out who you are going to infiltrate, and do not allocate espionage against them. why bother when you are going to infiltrate. use those points against whoever is spying on you so you can keep up.

definately put a spy in every single one of your cities. it is now a mandatory part of the garrison if you expect to avoid sabotage.

as far as philo leaders go, personal favs so far have been:
pericles (early libs and creative roks with this strat)
lincoln (not a fan of america as a civ but charismatic is damn useful)
and our philo buddy from germany. because late game engineer spam is pwnage.
I haven't tried your otto suggestion, I guess I'll have to add them to my to play list.

if you are going philo, try to find and mark out an area for the national park. once you preserve some forests, they will fill the space in. you dont have to work the tiles to get the specialists. last game I had 15 free specialists. spys scientists and engineers. all the forest tiles were 2f1h1c if i remember correctly. +2C if you are in environmentalism.

on that note late game its really hard to stay in state property. the health drag is too damn much. but environmentalism pays off pretty good too if you aren't using corps.

I hope its all helpful. I'm sure if I do good you'll do better let the good times roll

looking forward to it.

NaZ

 

[Jet]

Only if you play Aggressive AI. Otherwise, WHY EVEN BOTHER TO EXIST?



(Hopefully the moderators will let me off of the "no trolling" rule for this one. )

 

[popejubal]

On the Great Wall with Imperialistic, I'd like to mention that it's one of only two % bonus traits in the game that are actually multiplied.

If you earn 1 XP normally, that would be 2 XP with either the Great Wall or with Imperialistic. If you have both, you might expect 1 * (100% + 100% GW + 100% Imp) = 3 XP for Great General, but you actually get 4 XP. That's 1 XP * 2 * 2.

The only other % bonus that I know of in Civ IV is the Bureaucracy commerce 50% bonus that is added in before the commerce slider so that , and spy point multipliers are put in after the 50% bonus instead of at the same time.

 

[Scaphism]

I tried a game like this with Pericles that I played through until the early ADs.

It's a lot of fun, I was able to see what nearly everyone was researching by the time I stopped playing. I would love to see what someone as skilled at diplomacy as you could do with a Spy economy.

The more I think about it the more I like the idea. It's full of flavor and intrige. It would be even better if you wrote it in character (to an extent).

 

[NaZdReG]

oops wrong thread

NaZ

 

[kniteowl]

This might be a little difficult when you can only assign 1 spy from a courthouse even if you're philosophical, unless of course you use the Espionage Silder, btw does Caste System allow for unlimited Spy Specialist?

So how will the game play out? Will it be a CE with a Great Spy Farm lol

I think you should still beeline to Liberalism with GS to pick up Nationalism => Constitution for Early Jails and Nationhood Switch, UU Draft and +25% Espionage sounds very nice lol.

You should also get someone you trust to check the game on world builder to see if you're isolated or not, you wouldn't want to play the first 3000 yrs of a game to find out you're isolated and you can't pursue a Espionage Strategy.

I was thinking the leader should be Phil/Org and Less Likely Phil/Prot, Organized gives Cheap courthouses = Cheap EP points and Prot gives Cheap Castles but the benefit is only 25% and obsolete with economics, but if you're lucky enough to find stone it won't matter much but I can also see the Synergy with the Ottoman Leader, as stated above.

 

[NaZdReG]

aelf,

please direct to this thread.. futurehermit and I are working on espionage econ. hope to see your input.

NaZ

 

[aelf]

I'm actually thinking of settling the first Great Spy, since he IIRC he produces a large number of EPs per turn for the early game. It might be wise to set up a good espionage network first before we send a Great Spy to infiltrate. This way, if I'm not mistaken about how counter-espionage works, we can defend against rival spies for a long time without touching the espionage slider. It would also give us time to determine who to infiltrate. Tech trading isn't a big problem early game anyway, it is in mid-game when the AIs zoom past us that EPs will be very useful for learning techs that we cannot get from them. If we also gain a lot of info about the AIs (such as what they are researching and their cities' builds), then more power to us.

I think we can probably only manage to get two Great Spies with any ease in the early game, since as kniteowl says, we can at most assign one spy specialist and get the Great Wall for spy GPPs. But I think these two Great Spies will be very important in our strategy, and perhaps all that we need till much later.

please direct to this thread.. futurehermit and I are working on espionage econ. hope to see your input.

I don't see any link

 

[Alsn]

Well, all i know is that you really want to have infiltrated whoever you are going to steal techs from when you are going to do that because the more points you have relative to your opponent the cheaper it is to actually steal techs(and thus, the more points you get to keep which in turn keeps the modifier high).

Settling will give you more points over the long haul but it will take almost 300 turns to get it(on normal speed, i reckon its something like 900ish on marathon).

Also, the AI really doesnt do much spying action until later in the game so you dont really need an effective counter-spy network that early(by "that early" i mean when your first spy pops from TGW).

Edit: Also, do note that with representation spy specialists generate 4 science and 4 espionage which, while not generating any GS is quite respectable science if you see it purely as a bonus.

 

[aelf]

Well, all i know is that you really want to have infiltrated whoever you are going to steal techs from when you are going to do that because the more points you have relative to your opponent the cheaper it is to actually steal techs(and thus, the more points you get to keep which in turn keeps the modifier high).

Settling will give you more points over the long haul but it will take almost 300 turns to get it(on normal speed, i reckon its something like 900ish on marathon).

Also, the AI really doesnt do much spying action until later in the game so you dont really need an effective counter-spy network that early(by "that early" i mean when your first spy pops from TGW).

Edit: Also, do note that with representation spy specialists generate 4 science and 4 espionage which, while not generating any GS is quite respectable science if you see it purely as a bonus.

But we'll have the upper hand from the beginning. We'll know the AI's every move (almost). And, as I've said, we don't really want to steal techs yet, since they are easily tradeable.

 

[kniteowl]

But we'll have the upper hand from the beginning. We'll know the AI's every move (almost). And, as I've said, we don't really want to steal techs yet, since they are easily tradeable.

You'll probably wait till, WFYABTA before Tech stealing lol.

 

[Scaphism]

I found settling the first great spy, then building scotland yard with the second to be ideal. I didn't see the benefit of having an overwhelming amount of EP against just 1 civ when I didn't know how the diplomatic situation was going to shape up yet.

Settling the first and Scotland Yard with the second meant by the early ADs I was able to passively see what *everyone* was researching and how long it would take, without having to go to an espionage screen. It simply appeared on the bottom right next to leader names.

I'm far from an expert at using spies and espionage but instinct led me to believe that was the better use of great spies in my game. On top of that my closest neighbors were Shaka and Loius - not exactly tech/research monsters.

Caste System (to gain EPs/assign 1 spy specialist) and Alphabet (build actual spies) are the key early spying techs after the Great Wall is up.

 

[NaZdReG]

settleing and scotland have long term benefit to be sure. infiltration is best used against a financial opponent who pops the oracle, and starts beelining to beurocracy or feudalism. (so you can steal them ;D)

NaZ

sorry about the link, its one of futurehermit's postings around here. if I find i'll edit and post

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234812

 

[Alsn]

Played an EE(espionage economy!) game just now and while i didnt play even near a perfect game i found out some pretty nice things:

Using the op "spread culture" with your spies will give you a "city culture" cheaper cost modifier. I managed to get the modifier up to a reduction of 36%(!) before it got too expensive.

Without even having the trade routes modifier(-20% cost) i managed to get my modifiers to account for a 75% reduction in mission costs effectively netting me techs like steel for 1500 EP(and considering a great spy infiltration nets you 3000 points thats basically 2 free midgame techs!).

 

[EEE_BOY]

tried Suleiman yesterday. built 4 cities, build only catapults, lightbbulb to education, research gunpowder, libralism takes nationalism , draft and build Janissaries and war.

Janissaries is awesome, and the BTS changes extend their lifespan greatly.

waiting to see how u handle espionage.

 

[kniteowl]

tried Suleiman yesterday. built 4 cities, build only catapults, lightbbulb to education, research gunpowder, libralism takes nationalism , draft and build Janissaries and war.

Janissaries is awesome, and the BTS changes extend their lifespan greatly.

waiting to see how u handle espionage.

It's probably a combination of Philo lightbulbs and Delayed Res units.

 

[Godel]

Hi aelf

There is a very interesting thread on early great spies and tech stealing here:
http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2342

I wouldn't be surprised if this strategy gets nerfed in some future patch.

 

[DrJambo]

Interesting read Godel!

aelf, I'd suggest playing with no tech brokering ON.

As an aside, in my last prince level game as Justinian (Spiritual/Imperialistic) I built The Great Wall. However, rather than using this as a leverage to steal the early tech, I settled the great spy. Still, through all the great spies and spy specialists I had, my late game espionage was fairly powerful. I was able to stop Gandhi in full flow towards a culture win by systematically destroying each cathedral and all his advanced cottages. It was quite a mammoth job overall, since at one point he was only ~20 turns away from victory.

A noteworthy point raised in that discussion is whether EPs generated from the spy bomb should be scaled in relation to game time, i.e. less in early when techs and options are cheap, more in late when everything's more expensive.

 

[aelf]

But I thought that would be intended in this game

Anyway, this only works in the early to mid game, as later techs become too expensive. And I don't think it will make the game easy just because we are more advanced in the early and middle stages. That has happened before. Also, remember, we won't be rushing.