Abusing the AI - Gold before DoW

While not directly related, I think this issue brings up another monetary one: gold sums vs. GPT is unbalanced. Right now, it's 83g + 5gpt or 240g for a luxury, or 233g vs 240 over the course of 30 turns. Since there is no function in this game where GPT > gold sums in equivalent amounts, there is zero benefit to receiving gpt unless the AI simply doesn't have 240 gold. I think that GPT should be valued slightly higher than gold sums in trades instead of the way it is now. There should be a choice between less gold now or more gold later. Currently, the only issue is, 'does the AI have enough gold?'. Maybe it should be 240 gold now or 9gpt(270 gold over 30 turns) for a luxury.
 
While not directly related, I think this issue brings up another monetary one: gold sums vs. GPT is unbalanced. Right now, it's 83g + 5gpt or 240g for a luxury, or 233g vs 240 over the course of 30 turns. Since there is no function in this game where GPT > gold sums in equivalent amounts, there is zero benefit to receiving gpt unless the AI simply doesn't have 240 gold. I think that GPT should be valued slightly higher than gold sums in trades instead of the way it is now. There should be a choice between less gold now or more gold later. Currently, the only issue is, 'does the AI have enough gold?'. Maybe it should be 240 gold now or 9gpt(270 gold over 30 turns) for a luxury.
It would still be better to take the instant gold. 30 more turns without a library/swordsman/granary etc. is a long time, especially in the beginning of the game. For gpt to be balanced vs. lump sum, I think it should be something like 12 gpt for 30 turns (360 gold total), perhaps even more. But this problem would go away too with the prohibition of all lump sum trades, which I think would be the best option.
 
This was mentioned by joncnunn a few posts back. It's much better than my original #3 imo. There is a catch here though - you could very well use the gold you swindle from an AI to kill that very same AI. I'm sure if AIs could actually think they'd appreciate the irony. ;)

Ofc the current repercussions of totally killing off an AI - namely the entire world turning against you with endless denounce and war spam - might well be enough to deter prospective Nigerian princes (so to speak). But sometimes with many civs around you can still find someone to trade with... And if the trick jump-starts your world conquest then the hostility doesn't really matter much. Some would term this a legit strategy, others would disagree and think it must be prevented altogether, not limited to one or a few uses. I'm not sure which camp I stand in at the moment.

I had thought about this, specifically with leaving one little nearly undefended city next to Alex or Monty, and letting them finish the job and take the diplo hit, as well as ending the deal.

But you could simply say all deals must go to completion, restarting at the end of a war, and if that civ is wiped out, that civ simply gets the lump of gold when they come back (or the remaining time on a luxury deal, if they are freed before the end of one). No one would benefit from the deal except that civ, if it is ever brought back though.

The logic is simple, at worst, a civ has one city with 1 pop that has survived. We know that you can liberate cities for "dead" civs, as well. They still exist, but presumably as a puppet or annexed state of at least one other civ. Even if they are eliminated, one could still give those peoples the rest of the deal, even if that civ has lost all it's cities.

As the people still exist, it's logical that other civs would expect you to keep paying you debt to those people, no matter if they are a major civ or a puppet state.

You could still potentially stay at war with a defeated enemy AND try to protect his last poor cities from enemies, but there are very few situations in which the long term investment put into protecting them at the end of the game would be worth the upfront gain, unless you've really pretty well already won.
 
It would still be better to take the instant gold. 30 more turns without a library/swordsman/granary etc. is a long time, especially in the beginning of the game. For gpt to be balanced vs. lump sum, I think it should be something like 12 gpt for 30 turns (360 gold total), perhaps even more. But this problem would go away too with the prohibition of all lump sum trades, which I think would be the best option.

Oh definitely. 270 gold over 30 turns is still inferior to 240 gold in one turn, but I was just making a general statement about GPT vs. gold. The numbers could easily be tweaked, I just don't know what the optimal balance would be.
 
Banning all gold deals would be very bad. I make a point of trading luxuries to the AI I figure is the biggest threat just so I have something to sell if they DoW.

I think a diplomatic solution is best, with some intelligence on the AI's part not to trade if they are imminently going to attack.
 
While not directly related, I think this issue brings up another monetary one: gold sums vs. GPT is unbalanced. Right now, it's 83g + 5gpt or 240g for a luxury, or 233g vs 240 over the course of 30 turns. Since there is no function in this game where GPT > gold sums in equivalent amounts, there is zero benefit to receiving gpt unless the AI simply doesn't have 240 gold. I think that GPT should be valued slightly higher than gold sums in trades instead of the way it is now. There should be a choice between less gold now or more gold later. Currently, the only issue is, 'does the AI have enough gold?'. Maybe it should be 240 gold now or 9gpt(270 gold over 30 turns) for a luxury.

Sometimes I think it's fun to take their GPT and gold, then their economy is hopeless. I talk to them later and see they have 0 gold and like -5 GPT. I love how they pretty much buy anything unless they totally hate you :lol:
 
i would like if all lump gold was banned. only gpt for resources and no pre-dow milking would solve almost every issue with these abuses, imo.

i'd also like it if all building rush buys weren't in effect til the next turn to reflect the time it took to get them. even at the fastest each turn is only 1 year, a reasonable amount of time to assume it was available from rushing.
 
How many DOWs do you get before you get the warmonger label? 2?

Is that worth a few hundred gold? I'm not sure all this hubbub is warranted.
 
i would like if all lump gold was banned. only gpt for resources and no pre-dow milking would solve almost every issue with these abuses, imo.

i'd also like it if all building rush buys weren't in effect til the next turn to reflect the time it took to get them. even at the fastest each turn is only 1 year, a reasonable amount of time to assume it was available from rushing.

I agree with this.

Playing at immortal it feels to me that those lump trades are almost necessary to keep up unless i have favourable terrain (shielded by mtn range, ...). A rough estimate is that lump trades saves 20 settler turns in the first hundred turns. A change might need rebalancing.

One easy rebalancing could be to allow completion of buildings currently being built by paying for the remaining hammers (adjusted by the % modifier for the thing being built). Right now it does not make sense that you can rush buy everything in 1 turn but if you have built 95% of a building you have to pay 100% when rushbuying. If you have built 95% of an aqueduct that should give a pretty good headstart. Given a change from lump to gpt would mean less disposable cash so a system to shave off a few turns would allow some new strategic choices and priorities. Should be possible to mod and experiment
 
How many DOWs do you get before you get the warmonger label? 2?

Is that worth a few hundred gold? I'm not sure all this hubbub is warranted.

Just for fun, I tried a Settler Duel with max Civs. I will keep upping difficulty by one to see when I will finally get jumped by every neighbor instantly. From DOWing Germany, only India, Sweden and Polynesia labeled me a warmonger, and that was even in response to someone asking me to DOW. But I also did wipe Germany out since in such tight quarters, not many civs got more than one city, except somehow Ottomans had three. I DOWed Austria on my own later because she wiped out India, but I didn't check to see if anyone new called me a warmonger for that.

Now that I think of it, I also liberated Polynesia's capital from her too. Funny that the peaceful ones who called me a warmonger were getting returned to life by me. I wonder how long until someone wipes out Sweden. I think Japan will be out soon because over half the world chastised me for being friends with them.
 
So I've gone over to the dark side. I've never truly abused this before. I've understood the basic principle and have occasional had the trade deal go through knowing it wasn't going to last the full 30 turns, but I've never pushed the system to see how far one can go.

Long story short, I've been playing through some of the scenarios which I have largely ignored (I don't know how people play without G&K, the scenarios under vanilla rules are :eek:). I don't know what made me decide to abuse trade to its fullest. Perhaps only because I was playing the scenarios at King, so I figured I'd speed up what would already be a guaranteed win.

Warning, a little long.

Spoiler :
First example: Mongols. I've played this one before, but only once on Prince. The Trade/DoW was limited since about half way through the world went perma-war on me. However it was enough to get a few more Keshiks sooner. Nothing to write home about

Second example: Wonders of the ancient world. Wow, what a difference! I've always realized the AI was stupid, but not this stupid. I don't think I had to build a single building in my capital for the entire game. Sell gold per turn for bulk and DoW each AI, buy settler and settle near luxury. After peace, wait 10 turns then trade gold per turn and luxury for bulk and DoW each AI. Each time it snowballs into more gold, and each time the AI would offer a straight up equal peace deal a few turns later. It doesn't matter if they become guarded/hostile, because once you get enough luxuries and GPT, they are forced to take whatever deal you throw at them. 7 luxuries and 80 gpt? Sure, you can have my 400 gold even though I hate you.

I managed to get all but one wonder, including the Oracle. I only missed the one wonder by a single turn, because it was a coastal one and I was forced to build it in a non-capital city while the AI who got it had a coastal capital. I took it by force anyway (quick army purchased and paid for by the AI itself, of course).

Third example: Paradise found. Didn't work out as well as the others. I think largely due to lack of luxuries and trade partners; and also I didn't keep up military strength so my bully power wouldn't force equal peace deals.


What I never realized was how easy it is to cycle through wars and peace deals. I was always had the impression that after you declare war, you will get the same BS peace deals for 30+ turns until the AI finally gives in. I think the AI is more willing to offer a quick peace deal if it didn't want war to begin with (i.e. if you were the one to DoW rather than the AI DoW you).

And also military strength, which is easy to keep up if you are using the bulk gold before DoW to constantly keep up a strong military. There seems to be a synergy where the more you abuse this trick, the easier it becomes since gold is constantly funding your military strength.


As for a "fix" I am still personally content with just not doing it. Although I do better understand just how far this trick can break the game. Before I was under the assumption that it would be the occasional bit of gold and it couldn't be done repeatedly before the AI would stay at war or give crap trade deals. Instead, 2-3k gold every 20 turns which can be the equivalent of 150+ gold per turn just for using this trick. The difference between 0 bonus GPT and 150 GPT is huge.
 
Before I was under the assumption that it would be the occasional bit of gold and it couldn't be done repeatedly before the AI would stay at war or give crap trade deals. Instead, 2-3k gold every 20 turns which can be the equivalent of 150+ gold per turn just for using this trick. The difference between 0 bonus GPT and 150 GPT is huge.

Nice work. I didn't think it would be big deal on king and below due to lack of AI gold and warmonger hits.
 
Why don't you just not take advantage of holes in the AI? Its as simple as that. No matter what game it is, no matter how well the AI is programmed, the AI is always going to have holes in it. To exploit these holes is kind of cheap, and basically cheating.
 
Why don't you just not take advantage of holes in the AI? Its as simple as that. No matter what game it is, no matter how well the AI is programmed, the AI is always going to have holes in it. To exploit these holes is kind of cheap, and basically cheating.

This "exploit" has been available since the day the (vanilla) game was released. The developers have had years to remove it. Why is it cheating to follow the rules of the game as the designers apparently intended them?
 
This "exploit" has been available since the day the (vanilla) game was released. The developers have had years to remove it. Why is it cheating to follow the rules of the game as the designers apparently intended them?

this might not be the same but ive played plenty of games that had years to remove obvious cheats like clipping thru walls or leaving the map and wandering around in virtual space to places your werent allowed to reach and they were never fixed. devs not fixing them aren't necessarily implicit endorsements of the tactic. what they need are explicit endorsements (i.e a public statement saying as much) that these are 'working as intended'.

skyrim has been out for almost 2 years and i can still drop outside of the map/world thru a crevice in in a rock to access a chest im not allowed to access filled with free gear that lets me take it with no repercussions. it isnt intentional for that be a part of a fantasy world but they certainly never changed it.
 
This "exploit" has been available since the day the (vanilla) game was released. The developers have had years to remove it. Why is it cheating to follow the rules of the game as the designers apparently intended them?
It's not 'cheating' per my definition, but it is *cheesy* as hell. It totally breaks immersion for me, defeating the point of the game (which is to feel like the leader of a great civilization - not like a guy crunching numbers). I can't play competitive challenges because other people use the exploit in these, gaining a big advantage. In SP I never use it, although it occurs randomly sometimes and at times I'm tempted, simply due to how efficient and effortless it is.

So the point is not whether this is a cheat but whether it should be removed or modified somehow (with penalties etc, to add to the immersion).
 
If you don't use this, how does it break immersion for you?

Are you saying that it breaks immersion for you when you suspect that some stranger out there just might be doing this? Seems kind of self-centered to me. Do you object to other things that other people do for fun?

I also disagree that the "point" of the game is "to feel like the leader of a great civilization - not like a guy crunching numbers". Frankly, I enjoy figuring out how the game works and how game outcomes change based on different strategies (and, yes, understanding the numbers -- don't want to burst your bubble, but the game mechanics and AI are nothing but a bunch of numbers -- if you don't understand those numbers, and how they affect game play, you're just messing around -- nothing wrong with that, but don't assume that is the way the game is supposed to be played).

In the end, I enjoy figuring out how best to beat the game using the game's own rules. I care not one whit about immersion (whatever that is), and would object to game changes solely for the sake of gratifying someone else's view about what makes (or should make) the game immersive. Rule changes to improve balance, or to inject new gameplay elements, are great. When the rules do change, its an opportunity to learn the new rules and how best to beat the (revised) game.
 
Because its not fun to deliberately make sub-optimal choices just because the game design is bad.

What? Nonsense, lump sum dow is not optimal at all. Dunno if it still holds true, but in the ole days, the AI won't even give you better peace deals if you did it to them.
 
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