Academies vs bulbs

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If you have several good cities for cottages would you build academies in these instead of bulbing with your great scientists?

Bulb give more direct boost but academies boost research of whatever tech you choose research which allow for more control which may be more important.
 
It depends on your ability to maintain a high research slider and what the AI is doing. If you can maintain a high slider and have many good cottage cities, academies can beat bulbs pretty quickly. If you have a research monster like Mansa Musa on your continent and he's ahead of you, bulbs can give you good techs to trade. Once you have his techs you trade them around to everyone else to keep up in tech.

On lower difficulties, I think academies are better since you should always be ahead of the AI in tech.

The one bulb I always do is philosophy when I am a spiritual civ. Switching to caste + pacifism will almost instantly get me another GS and then many, many more. After that, go to slavery, whip some stuff, then back to caste + pacifism.
 
Another question is if great scientist bulb are actually better than great merchant trade missions. A trade mission give you 500 gold + 200 gold times the commerce the targeted city would get from trading with your capital. Given that the capital tend to be large like +20 pops even early in the game a trade mission may give equal if not even more gold than a bulb can give science.

Trade mission thus allow you to run 100% science for long time without the need to example produce wealth which mean you can run more cottages and when you factor in science multipliers, getting 2k gold from trade mission can mean something like 3k beakers you can invest as you want.
 
If you can get a GM to the Temple of Artemis city, that can be quite good to help research techs that aren't easily bulbed.

My preferred method of getting gold is fail gold. Dumping whip overflow and chops into resource boosted wonders will provide a ton of money. It gets really crazy if you're IND and running OR with a forge. +200% production into gold is ridiculous.
 
I almost always bulb over academies, usually one academy in my bureaucracy capital and that's it. Because it takes like 50 turns sometimes just to equal the raw beakers of bulbing and that doesn't account for opportunity costs like getting a good tech early. Scientists usually bulb really crucial tech like education, alphabet, philosophy.
 
It's pretty situational, but I tend to favour academies unless there's a really good technology I want to snag first. A few academies in commerce heavy cities can quickly outweigh the benefits of bulging!
 
  • Multiple academies: For me, it's not easy to see conditions where a 2nd academy would be competitive compared to bulbing. Perhaps if you capture a fully cottaged (=towned) city from AI (making close to ~100:commerce:) and you are planning to win space. Anyway, imo an academy is good because of bureaucracy. I think even that 1st academy might not be quite as good as common knowledge assumes (compared to bulbing).
  • Great merchants: I think that they are clearly better than scientists in a certain period of time. ~2k:gold: is a lot better than what you get from a scientist bulb (~1,7k:science:) like you note.
 
I think the best use of great people after the lib race is for corps and golden ages. Golden ages are so powerful once your cities are big and you're working lots of tiles. Starting a massive chain of 3-4 golden ages after Taj is built can basically guarantee a win.
 
Anyway, imo an academy is good because of bureaucracy. I think even that 1st academy might not be quite as good as common knowledge assumes (compared to bulbing).
I guess there could be instances in which you either tech slowly or the ai tech fast so getting an early trade bait like math may be more benifical than an academy.
 
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I guess there could be instances in which you either tech slowly or the ai tech fast so getting an early trade bait like math may be more benifical than an academy.

Well, I think one thing needs to be made perfectly clear here. Bulbing Maths can have strategic value, but it is a huge waste of beakers. I might sometimes do it if my leader is Philo mainly cause I want those chops to get out a fast HA army that is going to pay back that tremendous loss of beakers. And yeah..as you say..sometimes one is desperate for trade bait.

Sampsa may be referring to situations in which your cap or even other cities are not suited for an academy really when you pop your first scientist. Or if you are able to set up a good bulb strat for a fast mil tech advantage like Engineering or even Machinery. I mean there are a lot of different things you can do here. But if you have a well suited cap for Bureau an Academy first with your GS is a good idea.

Another option not noted is if you are slow on cottages early, you can settle the first scientist and then follow up with an academy later. Really good with Mids.

But the math is generally pretty clear on bulb. Early tech bulbing is not optimal. You lose out on a lot of beakers. It's that middle game (med/ren eras) where GS bulbing shines. The LIb path, as most techs exceed the value or close to par with the bulb value. Ideally you want to GS bulb a tech who's value is close to the bulb value..think Philo..or exceeds it like Education or Astro. Edu and Astro are also good double bulb ops.

Regardless of the math and that type of analysis, there are simply quite a few strats that you can play around with involving the bulbing that tied more to opportunity cost rather than the value of the bulb itself. Maths being one example...or Optics if iso.

GM trade missions are always nice and their value increases late game, especially when GS bulbing becomes suboptimal. The last tech I usually bulb is Printing Press, although I might throw one into Chem or Sci Meth if it serves a purpose.
 
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Very dependent on level, neighbours, game settings. Bulbs are better for close games in which the AIs are viable trading partners. If you’re ahead in tech, playing with no tech trading/brokering, or isolated, then an Academy can make more sense.

That said, I can’t see myself building ‘several’ academies. Maybe 1 or 2 in my best cottage cities, beyond the capital. It’s rare that my 3rd-best cottage city gets more out of an Academy than I would get by settling the Scientist in my Capital that already has an Academy.
 
I have also seen some high level players settle great scientist. With the mids you get 9 base beakers which becomes near 30 beakers when you add in library, oxford, university and academy amongst others. While settling may not look good mathematically speaking given that even 30 beakers per turn still take 67 turns to give more than the 2k or so a bulb gives it do come with a few nice advantages:
  • You get to choose exactly where your beakers go unlike bulb and in the long run you earn more beakers than a bulb
  • No reliance on commerce, slider setting and terrain unlike an academy also a settled great scientist provide one hammer
There is also the question when to start running specialists. If done early they tend to slow down more important stuff such as city growth and expansions but if done late you lose out on beakers and such. Probably the best time would be around the time you have gotten down a number of cities and really have no more important city sites left and no need to rush somebody.

Optimally timing for heavy specialist useage I think if you plan to bulb would be around the time you get music (assuming you get it first) and have access to pacifism and caste system as you can run golden age pacifism combination to farm out several great scientists for a low cost and these can then be used to bulb for full beakers.

For mid-rep the goal is pretty much to use your scientist to generate science so you will likely gain alot from runing specialist pretty much as soon as you get mids, the risk is still that you slow down your game if you use specialists too early as they unlike cottages can not feed themself, on the other hand dealying specialists will cost you beakers.

I think mid-rep favor smaller cities a bit more than you normally would. A city by itself give 2 food which is enough to run a specialist by itself and you lack access to monarchy so growing large cities are not as cheap. With mercantilism you can get another scientist per city. Every other specialist would need the food 2 grassland farmers or one foodplain farmer can provide so your population get quickly inflated with farmers who do little other than supporting specialists. Food resources do help alot but not all cities have the luxury of having them.

I mean a pop 1 city could potentially have 2 scientist with mercantilism and using the city food. To get 2 more you need to grow somewhere between population 5-7 (2-4 farmers, 3 specialists + 1 free with mercantilism) and to get 2 more specialist the city need somewhere around 9-13 population and it continues like that but given you likely use your best food tiles first, the needed population just keep increasing for less gain.

With 12 beakers from the 2 "free" specialists, you need to build alot of cities before maintenance start to drag you down more than these cities contribute. The great lighthouse that is said to help rapid expansion don't even come close to 12 beakers in most cases. You can also run 2 merchants for 6 beakers 6 gold if you want to keep the slider at 100%.
 
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The last tech I usually bulb is Printing Press, although I might throw one into Chem or Sci Meth if it serves a purpose.
This pretty much sums it up for me also. I may throw one at physics if in a close race since he'll get replaced.
 
With 12 beakers from the 2 "free" specialists, you need to build alot of cities before maintenance start to drag you down more than these cities contribute. The great lighthouse that is said to help rapid expansion don't even come close to 12 beakers in most cases. You can also run 2 merchants for 6 beakers 6 gold if you want to keep the slider at 100%.
Mercantilism is not going to help your rapid expansion, because if you wait until merc, it's not rapid. REX happens long before Banking. Also, the situation you describe does not provide 2 free specialists. The second specialist is one less citizen working a tile. Your example of pop 1 city with 2 specialists is a city that will never grow or do anything else useful. The cost of not growing your cities is huge. Definitely not "free". Merc is not free either, because you lose foreign trade routes and potential benefits from other civics. Merc is actually very situational and most often not the best option. GLH, on the other hand, is free extra commerce that comes early enough to help your Rexing.

As for the title question: definitely bulbing or golden ages. Very often even an academy in your capital is questionable. Doesn't really have time to pay off in a standard lib race. Academies in other cities are almost guaranteed to be a waste. I think the more interesting question is: If you have several good cities for cottages, should you even bother cottaging them?
 
GLH, on the other hand, is free extra commerce that comes early enough to help your Rexing.
It is not free, you need techs and you need to invest 200 hammers into a wonder that have no +100% modifier. You may very well be better of building wonders for failgold instead of GLH.

I think the more interesting question is: If you have several good cities for cottages, should you even bother cottaging them?
Cottages are always a big tradeoff. They are slow and don't really help much with military development.

Civilization is a game in which pretty much every investment not made into the army should always be viewed with doubts as the army is really what wins you the game either directly or indirectly.
 
It is not free, you need techs and you need to invest 200 hammers into a wonder that have no +100% modifier. You may very well be better of building wonders for failgold instead of GLH.
There's an initial cost assuming you built it yourself, which might or might not be the case. But once you have it, it's free. Specialists always come with a /turn based cost.

Everything in the game is situational. "You may very well be better off building wonders for failgold instead of ***" can be said about almost everything in the game.
 
There's an initial cost assuming you built it yourself, which might or might not be the case. But once you have it, it's free. Specialists always come with a /turn based cost.
GLH is amazing wonder but I'm playing on map settings where player has to go for it from T1 so... its not actually cheap. On Huge/Archip/Deity/17 AI (all capitals are coastal), most times it goes around 1900 BC (even than sometimes it goes at 22xx or fastest has been 24xx BC - damm, Rome :D ), so this makes big impact on early expansion (need whips, need chops, need base production to finish it in time - might be little place for >1 settler). Reason why I never feel bad about wonder that nets huge amount of commerce overall and works up to time when player is going to found Corporations or need Infantries or win Dom/Conquest/UN :)
 
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