Achievements kill the community?

[glider1]

This might be question more for people that remember the community we had here during the Civ4 days. Why is the modding community that builds the really big mods so much more quiet in Civ5 than Civ4?

There are many possible reasons including that Firaxis did not release the DLL code soon enough. However for me personally as a modder, the big turn off is that I keep hearing people say "but mods stop me with achieving my achievements in steam".

Well frankly, a modding community is much more important for this game than achievements in steam are. My humble opinion.

 

[Camikaze]

That could be a reason, though personally I've never actually seen anyone post that. I would say the tardiness with the DLL and difficulties with graphics modding are bigger reasons for the larger Civ4 modding community.

 

[Aristos]

glider1, my brother, I think you know the reason...

Civ5 only achieved acceptable quality after G&K, somewhat, but mainly after BNW. By then, all "super"-modders had already declared Civ5 a dead horse. We, the minimodders, are the only ones left.

I, myself, consider that Beach's Civ5 is "almost" on pair with Civ4 BTS, but it happened too late for the big modders to return. Too late. The damage that the "Shafer adventure" has caused is much bigger than what most people realize, and what some people want to acknowledge (why escapes my reasoning... just because he was a member of CFC? Meh...).

Another factor to take into consideration is that, perhaps, Civ5 is just not that much of modding material as Civ4 was. This may only be logical; after all, you cut down on features too much, and you are also cutting down on possible modifications to create that "something else"...

Anyways...

 

[bonafide11]

Another factor to take into consideration is that, perhaps, Civ5 is just not that much of modding material as Civ4 was. This may only be logical; after all, you cut down on features too much, and you are also cutting down on possible modifications to create that "something else"...

Anyways...

I don't see what features that Civ V cut down on. There are different features, sure, but I don't think it's like Civ IV had a significantly larger amount of features.

I imagine the reason is much more simple: Civ IV was easier to make large mods for than Civ V.

 

[Dralix]

Well frankly, a modding community is much more important for this game than achievements in steam are. My humble opinion.

I would imagine that the size of the modding community is directly proportional to the number of people who share your opinion.

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

AFAIK achievements on steam don't give points that can be redeemed for stuff, so I don't think achievements are the reason.

 

[dagriggstar]

I don't see what features that Civ V cut down on. There are different features, sure, but I don't think it's like Civ IV had a significantly larger amount of features.

I imagine the reason is much more simple: Civ IV was easier to make large mods for than Civ V.

Civ IV is easier to make mods regardless of size imo.

 

[joncnunn]

Well, the mod I was watching in G&K wasn't quite ready yet when BNW was announced, which appeared to have killed the progress it was making. I'll check into the progress of their replacement mod for BNW in a few months. I'm not really interested in Beta testing a mod.

(That was also a problem during the release of Vanilla. The first nine months felt like a public beta test that I had spent money on based on all the rules changes.)

 

[householder]

Civ IV is easier to make mods regardless of size imo.

That is my impression as well. Making simple mods for Civ IV was...erm, simple. But after several attempts at modding for Civ V, I gave up.

Aristos may also be correct that many modders simply gave up on Civ V after the vanilla release, and they didnt return for the expansions.

 

[joncnunn]

That is my impression as well. Making simple mods for Civ IV was...erm, simple. But after several attempts at modding for Civ V, I gave up.

I've found things that I thought was simple to mod be impossible (at least pre DLL) because there was no hook into it.

The first thing I wanted was to change how national wonders work to be more like Civ IV. (Flat number of buildings needed), but that leftover field in the XML from the days of Civ IV wasn't hooked into anything.

More recently, with BNW I wanted to try moding the wonders that needed you to open trees to instead require closing the trees. But I found that was hooked at the tree level instead of the policy level and so couldn't be done with XML.

 

[Talcove]

It's simple really,

Modders saw that Civ 5 Vanilla was only as good as Civ 4 Vanilla and didn't instantly match the quality of Civ 4 + every expansion pack, and were hesitant to invest in Civ 5. There's also the fact that Civ 5 was a radical departure from the aging and stale formula of the previous 4 Civ games, gaining many new mechanics and systems along it's lifetime, which contributed to the hesitance.

There is also somewhat of a circular logic behind it: There aren't a lot of mods for Civ 5 and a lot for Civ 4, therefore modders think that modding in Civ 4 will be better, which means that Civ 5 gets less mods and Civ 4 gets more, therefore modders... Rinse and repeat.

 

[Callonia]

I'm not sure if I remember right.... I think Firaxis was reluctant to allow modders to mod civ 5 vanilla until like two years after it's release. Thus modders couldn't do more than simple skin mods. So they ragequit and went back to civ4.

 

[gps]

There's also the fact that Civ 5 was a radical departure from the aging and stale formula of the previous 4 Civ games, ...

You sure meant the "brilliant and excessively successful formula"...?

 

[Talcove]

You sure meant the "brilliant and excessively successful formula"...?

Oh, sure, it was certainly successful, and I had a lot of fun with Civ 3 and Civ 4. But by the time you get to the fifth installment of a game, you'll have already done most of the things possible with the formula, perhaps even reached it's limit.

It's like Pizza. Pizza is good. Pizza is great! But if you eat Pizza every day, it'll start to not be so great; it gets old, and feels stale. You get stuck in a rut. So, to spice it up, one day you decide to get BBQ Chicken Wings! That's what Civ 5 did; rather than giving us more of the same, it decided to give us something new and spicy.

 

[gps]

That's what Civ 5 did; ... it decided to give us something new and spicy.

Yes, I see your point now. As many spicy things do also Civ V brought tears to my eyes...
Btw. a good AI is the "pizza dough" of every strategy game. Without it, it's not really a pizza, is it?

 

[bc1]

1) Civ V was quite bad at release, and took some time to mature
2) Civ V is significantly different from Civ IV, mod conversion is extremely difficult
3) Civ V versions raise compatibility issues by refusing to "grandfather" obsolete methods
4) Civ V code is difficult to access for modders... too many methods, instead of generic methods with more parameters
5) The data model is not very well thought out (e.g. yields / culture / tourism)

 

[Karmah]

That could be a reason, though personally I've never actually seen anyone post that.

OK , as stupid as it might sounds , I don t use mods because it turns off achievements.
I ve downloaded quite a few mods but never used them thinking it would be ok once i m finished with achievements but since i never play game specifically to get achievements ...it might take a while

I do enjoy the surprise of a random achievement popping up when i m playing without looking for it.

If i go further in the reasonning , i m fairly good with computing code so I guess I could have been interrested in modding if had given a deeper look to it...but since i don t play with mods because it turns off achievements ...rinse and repeat .

 

[bc1]

Then make a DLC... it has no effect on achievements

 

[Arcaian]

Yes, I see your point now. As many spicy things do also Civ V brought tears to my eyes...
Btw. a good AI is the "pizza dough" of every strategy game. Without it, it's not really a pizza, is it?

I think the better analogy salami pizza vs hawaian, or something similar. Need the same base, but the topping has to change a bit or you'll be bored soon.

Civ V has significantly changed the game, and I think for the better, as a base. The base with hexagons, proper ranged combat and 1UPT (though 2 or 3 UPT would work too) is much better than stacks of doom. However the rest of the pizza hasn't been improved, and now pales in comparison - much better dough, but the rest is the same. In comparison it seems much worse; the AI for example. It's no worse, but it co-operates worse with the systems now than before so seems worse. Play it MP, and 1UPT and combat is much better. Play SP, the AI can ruin it a bit.

 

[Civking5]

Another issue were the number of patches since the game got released. How many patches we had? 14? 15? some of them changed the games greatly and screwed the mods constantly.