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[choxorn]

Trading
We can sell Invention to Mongols for 20 gpt and 186 of 186 gold. Should we vs. can we.

Theology is unknown to everyone; we cannot buy it.

We can buy Chivalry from England for Invention and 80 gold.

Is that all the gpt they have?

 

[templar_x]

lurker's comment:

Also, Invention is known only to 1 AI (Korea), not 4. It seems like some of them went for Chivalry instead. We can still get something out of it by trading for Chivalry from England or Mongolia, as I mentioned at the end of the turnset. It's not like it was a complete waste.

i understand that this is a science game. therefore research into a known tech that can only be traded for an optional tech absolutely defines as a complete waste.

playing against strong objections of the only team member that spoke up (and the far better player btw) will not only understandably cause severe irritation with that said player but sounds like bad SG etiquette to me as well. [the irony here lies in the fact, that Lanzelot and I had our severe fights/disagreements because i (and others) felt he repeatedly ignored team decisions and discussions in a team game . still i fully understand that he does not enjoy being on that end of the "stick" here...]
t_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Also, Invention is known only to 1 AI (Korea), not 4.

Oops, yes that's right. I must have confused the "sell options" with the "buy options" in CAII. Guess it was too late yesterday...

Sorry, but I'm not going to switch a tech we'd already put some gold into researching

Why not, if it's actually faster that way?
And by the way, I've forgotten to mention one more reason why switching was good: as a scientific nation, we have a 5% chance of getting an SGL when finishing a tech -- but of course only if it is still an "unknown" tech!

So for the future I suggest that we at least "seriously consider" switching techs whenever a tech that we are currently researching, becomes known somewhere else. (Of course there are exceptions, e.g. we are currently researching Astronomy and our Copernicus pre-build is like 3-4 turns from completing... Then we of course won't abandon Astronomy... )

Speaking of which, we could really use more discussion from everyone- other than you, we're not really talking much about what we should do and it's leading to mistakes like this one.

Yes, please, everyone! (Though it's not me alone: tjs282 is also doing a lot of work and providing a lot of input and ideas.)

 

[Lanzelot]

Some notes in red:

Notes
No settlers in production.

We need three workers to connect Walstadt and Westenbergberg by road to Fischberg. We need to road three jungles to do this and then we don't need three harbors.
--> Harbors are cheap for us and provide food & commerce until the jungle is chopped. So I think the harbors will be ok there. Question is whether they will pay off in these locations before courthouses?! Not sure.
Walstadt needs to be building a library to expand its culture and claim the two whales. Then use the whales to help build a harbor (maybe).
We also could use some sort of unit (Pike/Spear) on tha choke point between these three cites and England.
--> Good plan.

Trading
We can sell Invention to Mongols for 20 gpt and 186 of 186 gold. Should we vs. can we.
--> Depends on the MAPT deals. See below.

We can buy Chivalry from England for Invention and 80 gold.
--> Personally I don't like strengthening England now, as they'll be our next target soon. Let's rather wait till we get Theology and then buy Chivalry for that (either from England or someone else.)


Apparent/Possible Strategic City Tasks/Goals

• Oasenstadt: Military units.
  • Pikes are 30 shields, Longbows and Maces are 40. To be avoid wasting shields, we need to decide what units this city will produce and adjust worker allocation accordingly. If Pikes, we either need to build them in 2 turns (15 spt) or 3 turns (10 spt). If Longbow and Maces, then either 3 turns (14 spt) or 4 turns (10 spt). At the moment, if we follow the barrack with units at 13 spt, we build 3 turn Pikes and waste 9 shields on turn 3 or 4 turn Longbows/Maces and waste 12 sheilds on turn 4.
  --> Oasenstadt is our best producer and it wastes too many shields on the barracks now and later on units. Switch to Heroic Epic now. It'll be done in 14 turns, just in time for our English war. And note: instead of the un-improved forrest, Oasenstadt can use Königsberg for 5 extra bpt and 1 extra spt! (Königsberg has another fully improved hill further east, which is currently unused. What a waste.)
  
• Bergen: grind out slaves and then build back up; will take about 30 turns.
  --> We can even cash-rush the slaves, when 2-3 shields are accumulated. The free worker power will quickly repay the little gold investment.
  
• Königsbeg: Five turn worker pump.
  --> You mean "two turn", right?
  
• Koloossusstadt: emphasize growth over production; faster growth for more commerce from The Colossus; new citizens become fishermen, not miners or farmers.
  • Swap Heroic Epic to Forbidden Palace? Or is this a University pre-build? 58 shields invested so far.
    --> Copernicus prebuild. BTW: let it use the mined plains tile at 0fpt and 7spt (if necessary, we can give Kolossusstadt the irrigated plain Hamburg is currently working, because Hamburg still has an unused irrigated plains further east). At 7spt Copernicus will finish in 36 turns, which will coincide perfectly with our expected arrival time of Astronomy.
• Copenhagen: settler/abandon and then move somewhere else. Where exactly?
  --> We can first get another free slave out of it, and then let one native German citizen re-grow, while the settler completes. This should avoid the attitude hit.
  Now location: Choxorn suggested the floodplain wheat, which is indeed the best idea. See also discussion below about our Forbidden Pallace.
  
• Hamburg: no special plans.
• Aarhus: no special plans.
• Eisenstadt: no special plans.
• München: no special plans.
• Die Siedler von Catan: lots of jungle to clear; two workers allocated to this task.
• Neu-Oslo: border city with no units; a bit scarey.
• Wilhelmshaven: no special plans.
• Goldstadt: 5 mountain, 4 jungle and 2 marsh. Great potential but a lot of work to get there.
• Walstadt: no special plans.
• Odense: needs to be connected; pitiful location.
• Hareid: no special plans.
• Bananenbucht: jungles and marsh and bananas.
• Fischberg: no special plans.
• Westenburgberg: no special plans.
• Trondhiem: All Viking citizens, great place for slaves but we are building a vPike.
  --> Here I would definitely cash-rush the slaves, because we definitely need to regrow Trondheim quickly, so it can start the Forbidden Pallace.

All the core towns with "no special plan" should complete a lib and then produce units. We need to capture London in at most 36 turns...

Diplomacy
What is meant by MAPT? I think I am missing something or not understanding how to work this to our advantage.
--> In the F4 screen go to "Active deals" and click on the peace treaty. Confirm with "Yes, Absolutely!" and then add a military alliance agaist a common target to the table. (Plus potentially some other stuff, more on that later.) Once the deal is signed, we have now tied a military alliance (MA) to the peace treaty (PT). The AI is notorious for breaking its MAs, so there's a good chance they will sign peace with that common target before the 20 turns are up. This will then automatically break the entire deal, which means the PT will be gone, too... Resulting in free war happiness (25% happiness!) for us.
The war itself is no danger, because they are on another continent, busy fighting with each other. (The most we have to fear, is a lone archer dropped off by a galley every 20 turns or so -- though I know this can be quite devastating... )

Possible MAPT deals:
At the moment, there are 3 wars going on:
China - Mongols
China - Japan
Mongols - Korea

Korea is scientific, so we want to keep them out of any MAPT deals. (Would be quite bad, if they get their free tech and we can't buy it, because we are at war with them...) So that makes China our obvious "common target civ". The Mongols are even willing to pay us for helping them: basically we get Chivalry for free:

(There is another 2gpt in that deal not visible in the screenie.)

Japan doesn't have much to give, but we can get at least their 14g. India is currently not at war, but they are also willing to sign an MAPT against China, so that makes 3 MAPT deals! One of them is going to snap eventually, and with a bit of luck even two, providing 50% happiness.

BTW: you have been member of Team Elite in SGOTM14, and PaperBeetle had been the team captain back then. Did he not use MAPT deals in that game? He was also a real master at these things, and SGOTM14 with 24(!) AIs was pefectly suited for MAPT deals...

Forbidden Pallace:

Here is a picture of how our FP area could look like:

The FP is no longer as strong as in Vanilla/PtW, but Trondheim would be very powerful at near zero corruption, and approx. 7 cities around it would still be "semi-productive". And the area there is excellent, with a cow, 3 wine, 3 floodplains, a wheat and 2 oasis!
Question is only: how do we get that FP up and running asap? We can hope on another MGL in the English war, but we should also be prepared for the case that we don't get one in time. In such a case I usually do this:
- cash-rush a courthouse (for an extra shield) and a marketplace (for happiness).
- In this case (low on luxuires) we may also consider rushing a temple?!
- Join as many workers as possible without creating an unhappy citizen (WLTK day also provides an extra shield).
- Trondheim is not that far from the Pallace, so we can reasonably expect to get to to 4spt that way?! That would mean, it can build the FP in 25 turns.

In any case, we should start on that program asap. If we can get our FP up and running, before our GA starts (36 turns from now), the effect will be tremendous.

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: if Goldstadt works the BG instead of the plain grass, it'll gain a 3rd spt...

 

[tjs282]

EDIT:
Man, Lanzelot, sometimes it really sucks to be sharing a timezone with you! I started writing my post after your 13:23 post, but was working in between and only just finished it. Now you've gone and done it again -- lots more ideas, lots more comprehensive, and lots faster. Next time I just won't write anything, and save myself an hour or so...

Spoiler :

Why not, if it's actually faster that way?
And by the way, I've forgotten to mention one more reason why switching was good: as a scientific nation, we have a 5% chance of getting an SGL when finishing a tech -- but of course only if it is still an "unknown" tech!

Not to diminish the general validity of your point about how we shouldn't be afraid to dump already-invested beakers, if doing so pushes us through the tree faster, but the only real advantage of SGLs over MGLs is that SGLs can rush GWs but MGLs can't (and I was so annoyed when that caught me out in my first Conquests game!). So it seems to me that getting an SGL really only helps us if there's a GW that we want, which we already have the tech to build...

Also, I'm assuming (uh-oh!) that it's not possible to have an MGL and an SGL active simultaneously in Conquests, i.e. if we're lucky enough to get any SGL, 'storing' it would prevent our elite units from generating any more MGLs until the SGL has been 'spent' -- is that right? So getting an SGL before we got e.g. Astronomy wouldn't necessarily help us (although getting one with Astronomy would be great!), and might actually hinder us (e.g. we still need to build an FP, for which an MGL would be sufficient...).

On which note, should we set a policy on what to do with further GLs, when/if they appear? Or is the usual SG etiquette just 'If you get one during your turnset, immediately pause for team consultation'? (Yes, I know, for 24 hours -- I will wait longer next time, I promise!)

So for the future I suggest that we at least "seriously consider" switching techs whenever a tech that we are currently researching, becomes known somewhere else.

Lanzelot -- partly my bad also here...? Before I began my turnset, I saw that you'd castigated MRG for not beelining to Education. I can't remember -- and haven't scrolled back to look -- whether you'd already suggesting dumping the beakers at that point. If you had, then definitely my bad, because I didn't (and sorry for that screwup). If you hadn't, then I probably assumed (uh-oh again) that we should just finish the tech and then get on with the beeline (as we did with the messed-up Republic 'slingshot'), so after I'd done what unit upgrades I could, I bumped Sci% (up) to 10% to put some BPT into Invention, while still accumulating nearly max. GPT. Shortly before the end of my set, I found that Korea had it already, but nobody else did, which I deduced was because no other AICiv could afford to buy it from them (if we couldn't, they almost certainly couldn't!) -- or hadn't met them yet.

By that point, we'd already put ~500 beakers into Invention (rather than your estimated 300), so I maxed Sci% (without deficit) on my second-last turn (IIRC), figuring we could put 3-4T more research in until Korea dropped their price low enough for us to buy it, and then immediately sell it to everyone else who didn't have it yet (except Ragnar, obviously!). Except I'm not sure that I explicitly suggested that in my handover notes, so Choxorn just carried on researching it himself, instead of doing either what I was thinking of, or what you suggested and junking the beakers (which does sound like it would have been the better option, despite the 'don't switch tech-target midway through the research' rule of thumb).

Yes, please, everyone! (Though it's not me alone: tjs282 is also doing a lot of work and providing a lot of input and ideas.)

Naja, providing ideas is one thing, but providing useful ideas is something else entirely. (And executing those ideas successfully is yet another thing...)

To repeat: I was a Vanilla player up until very recently, and am still not beating Monarch consistently enough (for my taste) in my solo games, whether Vanilla or Conquests. So I would regard any/all of my ideas/input as subject to criticism by all the more expert players here (please!), because I am here primarily to learn. It would also be helpful for me to have those ideas critiqued by more than one player if possible. (This is not to say that your advice has not been good, Lanzelot, but multiple peer-review generally provides more useful input than single peer-review!)

And I have also already posted about how odd I find it that Acronym basically seems to have set us going, and then abandoned the game/this thread, even though he has been logging into CFC in the meantime (OK, it was his game, so he probably won't suffer a rep-hit -- or have we already successfully assimilated it...? )

@CommandoBob:
Here's my input (such as it is!) into your plan:

• Can we switch O'stadt from Barracks to a Uni prebuild as well -- maybe set it to build a Colosseum or something until we get Educated?
• Kolossusstadt's shields are indeed for a Uni prebuild -- or alternatively Copernicus, if we can get Astronomy before major shield-overrun occurs (because Colossus + Copernicus = Huuuuge Sci boost). I don't think it would be sensible to build our FP there, and besides...
• Lanzelot suggested turning Trondheim into our FP-city. He also suggested running a 'phony war' whereby we don't actually aim to take/hold any more Viking territory (except maybe R'vik(?) -- the Viking capital would then switch to Stockholm, which would reduce flip-risk in Trondheim and Copenhagen), just use our elites to kill incoming Archers until we get another MGL to insta-build the FP. That would of course mean re-DoW-ing the Vikings, but I'm not sure how (badly?) that would affect our trading reputation? (Or maybe we could gift them Invention, let them build enough Berserkers to get overconfident and DoW us, then kick their butts with our Maces/ Longbows/ Knights...?)
• Your point about building a Lib in Walstadt for border-popping makes sense, but the Harbours on the peninsula are not so much for connection to our trade network as for getting more food/pop growth/trade from the coastal tiles, so will be needed certainly until all the Jungle/Marsh tiles have been cleared.

In general, is it quicker to road Forests/ Hills/ Jungle/ Marsh tiles before doing anything else with them (fewer Worker-turns wasted on movement)?

• If Copenhagen's Settler is to obtain the Wheat, there are lots of places it could go, but also several that it shouldn't. My first vote would be for the Plains in the crook of the river 1SE of the Wheat. Building here would also allow us to later build a second city in the Hills 1E of Copenhagen's present position (although I'm not sure if that tile would be considered to have freshwater access?). Building on the Desert 1N of the Wheat would give an automatic 2fpt without irrigation -- but we would also need an Aqueduct for growth to Pop12. I think the Flood 1NE is too close to Trondheim (and building on either of the Wheat-free Floods will halve their FPT, so not great), and the iGrass 1SW is definitely needed by München (see my food map). Another possibility (but not before R'vik is ours!) might be to move the Settler (N)NE, and settle on either the Hill tile east of the river, or the Plain on the western riverbank.
• Curious why you've suggested Königsberg to build 5T workers -- it's still at Pop6 according to Choxorn's screenie, so should still be able to do 2T workers -- or is that no longer possible due to Choxorn's tile improvements?

 

[Lanzelot]

EDIT:
Man, Lanzelot, sometimes it really sucks to be sharing a timezone with you!
<snip>
Next time I just won't write anything, and save myself an hour or so...

Perhaps the following helps: just publish a post like "Hey, Lanzelot, hold yer horses, I'm currently writing something" and then go back in with Edit and write what you really want to write...

After all, it is not in my interest to keep you guys from doing some work, too...

 

[Lanzelot]

He also suggested running a 'phony war' whereby we don't actually aim to take/hold any more Viking territory

That was, before we dropped Hamburg... Now we don't have war happiness from a war with the Vikings anymore, so there is no use in a phony war. Also the rep hit for breaking the PT before the 20 turns are up would be quite severe.

 

[choxorn]

--> Oasenstadt is our best producer and it wastes too many shields on the barracks now and later on units. Switch to Heroic Epic now. It'll be done in 14 turns, just in time for our English war. And note: instead of the un-improved forrest, Oasenstadt can use Königsberg for 5 extra bpt and 1 extra spt! (Königsberg has another fully improved hill further east, which is currently unused. What a waste.)

While I think having Oasenstadt build Heroic Epic (and K'stadt switch to Leo's Workshop or some other prebuild) is a good idea, I would like to say that we need to have our cities building some units if we want to take on England any time soon. They're considerably bigger and stronger than us at the moment.

In general, is it quicker to road Forests/ Hills/ Jungle/ Marsh tiles before doing anything else with them (fewer Worker-turns wasted on movement)?

It depends. Jungles and Marshes should always be cleared first, as should forests if you intend to clear them, because it will lower the time of doing any other improvement.

When the set was turned over to me, it looked like you had several groups that weren't all doing the same thing- I think some were clearing and some were road-building.

With Hills, it doesn't really matter whether you road then mine or mine then road, as long as you don't move them off the tile between doing those two things, unless you want to be sending some other units through that tile soon (in which case you should clearly road first). In that case it depends on whether you need the shields more or the gold more.

 

[tjs282]

That was, before we dropped Hamburg... Now we don't have war happiness from a war with the Vikings anymore, so there is no use in a phony war. Also the rep hit for breaking the PT before the 20 turns are up would be quite severe.

Yeah, thought it might be. Oh well...

What about the other idea, of gifting them Invention so that they can tool up with Berserkers and potentially DoW us before the PT is over? To get their military rated as 'strong' compared to ours (but only just!), I estimate that they would need slightly better than a 2:3 ratio of Berserkers (A=6) to our total collection of A=4 Maces (and also Knights, if we upgrade our Horses), which we either already have, or could/would build over the same turns. Does that sound reasonable, or does our 3-Mace, 13(?)-HP Army significantly throw off that calculation?

Or would this whole idea be just too risky? After all, one Berserker-win and they'd start a GA, which would help them build more...? Or is this whole thing moot because the high cost of Berserkers (56s per, with the 80% discount) would likely mean that the PT would have ended anyway, (long) before they managed to re-arm...?

With respect to WH, though -- if Ragnar could be induced to DoW us again (even without the Berserker), would we then get it back? Especially if this happened in conjunction with your mooted MAPT deals -- which sound delightfully devious, BTW?

(Re: MAPT's against the Chinese -- that would also give us an excuse to go after Shantung -- not that we'd really want to keep it, but I don't like it when overseas AIs start building towns on 'my' continent...)

 

[Lanzelot]

While I think having Oasenstadt build Heroic Epic (and K'stadt switch to Leo's Workshop or some other prebuild) is a good idea, I would like to say that we need to have our cities building some units if we want to take on England any time soon. They're considerably bigger and stronger than us at the moment.

That's a fair point, but I hope we can pull it off anyway:

• Because of territory (long stretch of jungle between their core and ours) it is to be expected that they'll send their units over slowly and "one by one" (as the AI likes to do even on better maps). Should be no problem to fend off, even with a weaker army than theirs.
• There is a handful of first-ring towns which will finish their libraries in the next 3-5 turns and can then immediately switch back to unit production: Hamburg, Eisenstadt, München, Catan (currently building market, but without an aqueduct that doesn't really pay off yet, especially as we're doing full research over the next time, so we can consider postponing the market), Wilhelmshaven. They can produce quite a decent force over the next 15 turns. Aarhus can quickly be connected to the core, equipped with barracks and then join unit production too.
• If we do feel too weak to attack them the ordinary way, we can still resort to some cowardice measures like: use a RoP to park a decent attack force next to London. Then on the turn before Copernicus finishes, cancel the RoP, take London, defend it for at least one turn, and then beat them, with our Golden Age... (We'll probably have to resort to a RoP rape anyway, if we don't want to fight countless city walls.)

What about the other idea, of gifting them Invention so that they can tool up with Berserkers and potentially DoW us before the PT is over? To get their military rated as 'strong' compared to ours (but only just!), I estimate that they would need slightly better than a 2:3 ratio of Berserkers (A=6) to our total collection of A=4 Maces (and also Knights, if we upgrade our Horses), which we either already have, or could/would build over the same turns. Does that sound reasonable, or does our 3-Mace, 13(?)-HP Army significantly throw off that calculation?

Or would this whole idea be just too risky? After all, one Berserker-win and they'd start a GA, which would help them build more...? Or is this whole thing moot because the high cost of Berserkers (56s per, with the 80% discount) would likely mean that the PT would have ended anyway, (long) before they managed to re-arm...?

That plan sounds quite risky to me: giving them Berserkers while we are at the same time preparing for a tough war on the other side? The war against the Brits will not be a walk in the park like the Viking war has been, so I'd rather not play with fire.

With respect to WH, though -- if Ragnar could be induced to DoW us again (even without the Berserker), would we then get it back?

Good question. I'm not quite sure. At the moment I would expect "yes", but it remains to be tested.

but I don't like it when overseas AIs start building towns on 'my' continent...)

Why not? I'd take a free town any day...

 

[Lanzelot]

but the only real advantage of SGLs over MGLs is that SGLs can rush GWs but MGLs can't (and I was so annoyed when that caught me out in my first Conquests game!). So it seems to me that getting an SGL really only helps us if there's a GW that we want, which we already have the tech to build...

Also, I'm assuming (uh-oh!) that it's not possible to have an MGL and an SGL active simultaneously in Conquests, i.e. if we're lucky enough to get any SGL, 'storing' it would prevent our elite units from generating any more MGLs until the SGL has been 'spent' -- is that right? So getting an SGL before we got e.g. Astronomy wouldn't necessarily help us (although getting one with Astronomy would be great!), and might actually hinder us (e.g. we still need to build an FP, for which an MGL would be sufficient...).

To answer the question first: yes, you can't generate an MGL, while having an SGL on stock. (Oddly, though, the other way around is no problem: you can generate any number of SGLs with an MGL or SGL already on stock?!)

However, I disagree on your two statements, i.e. that an SGL is useful only if there is a GW we want and have the tech for, and that it might actually hinder us otherwise... An SGL certainly never "hinders" us... You are not forced to spend it on a great wonder: a small wonder would do as well! If we had one right now, I would without hesitation spend it on building the Forbidden Palace right away! (This would probably anyway be much stronger than any wonder we could build at the moment!) Then we would not depend on any MGL luck for the FP or on building it slowly brick by brick. (And if we do get an MGL, it could again be used for an Army, easing the war against the Brits.)

On which note, should we set a policy on what to do with further GLs, when/if they appear? Or is the usual SG etiquette just 'If you get one during your turnset, immediately pause for team consultation'? (Yes, I know, for 24 hours -- I will wait longer next time, I promise!)

Sounds good. 1-2 days pause to give everybody a chance to speak his mind. We are in no hurry.

Lanzelot -- partly my bad also here...? Before I began my turnset, I saw that you'd castigated MRG for not beelining to Education. I can't remember -- and haven't scrolled back to look -- whether you'd already suggesting dumping the beakers at that point.

At that time I did not suggest it yet. There was still a slight chance that a strong AI went for Theology instead of Invention (both of them allow a wonder, as does Chivalry, so the AI likes all three of them. There are only 1-2 strong AIs who can research as fast as we do, so I guess it was a 33% probability which of the three techs (Theo, Chiv, Inv) would pop up first), and then we would have been able to swap Invention for Theology. At that point it still appeared as the better choice than dumping the beakers.

 

[choxorn]

On building libraries in the first-ring cities- shouldn't we also be building Barracks in the ones we want to build (non-artillery) units in? And Markets and Aqueducts, at some point?

 

[dalgo]

lurker's comment: Thanks Lanzelot for your explanation of MAPT deals. This is not something I've heard of before although I may well have made one or two in the past by accident

 

[Lanzelot]

On building libraries in the first-ring cities- shouldn't we also be building Barracks in the ones we want to build (non-artillery) units in? And Markets and Aqueducts, at some point?

They all have barracks already, except for Aarhus, which can build one now. (Or perhaps library first? It won't pay off yet, but we'll need it eventually, so we can already build it now and afterwards the barracks, which then don't need to "pause" during a later library-build?!)

Regarding Markets and Aqueduct, you are right, we shouldn't neglect them too much. Perhaps at any time one of those 6 towns can build an Aqueduct (or Market if already at size 7) while the other 5 continue with armarment.

 

[CommandoBob]

Got busy early this week and while I have had time to look I haven't had time to study. Catching up now, with a Plan for my turns due later tonight.

--> Harbors are cheap for us

Lanzelot, what did you mean by this?

What I heard in my head was 'We can build harbors cheaply because of our Civ traits'. Except that we are MIL and SCI, not SEA. So I am puzzled (a little bit).

If you meant that they are a cheap way to get extra commerce, then I misunderstood you.

Your explanation of MAPT was good and thorough. Now to make it happen.

Don't see any settlers mentioned except for Copenhagen in your response to me. Are we planning to build up around Trondheim/Forbidden Palace after we fight the English?

 

[Northern Pike]

{delurk}

What I heard in my head was 'We can build harbors cheaply because of our Civ traits'. Except that we are MIL and SCI, not SEA. So I am puzzled (a little bit).

Harbours count as a military improvement since they produce veteran ships, so they're half-price for militaristic civs.

{lurk}

 

[CommandoBob]

Long Term Plans
Get into Space

Mid Range Plans
Own our own continent.

Short Range Plans

Uhmm...I don't know what I meant by:

Königsbeg: Five turn worker pump.

I can't even claim I fat-fingered it, since I took the time to spell out Five!



Make the MAPTs as alredy described.

Specific City Usage

• Oasenstadt: Heroic Epic
• Bergen: cash rush slaves
• Königsbeg: TWO turn worker pump.
• Koloossusstadt: prebuild for Copernicus' Observatory.
• Copenhagen: gain a slave and then settler/abandon.
• Trondhiem: cash rush slaves

Next Worker Tasks(NW to SE)
Three workers 1SE of Wilhelmshaven, mining grass, 2 turns -> ship to Fischberg and then build three jungle roads to connect Westernburgberg and Walstadt.
Two workers 1NW of Catan, no movement -> clear jungle.
Five workers and 2 slaves 1NW of München, mining a hill, 1 turn -> slaves head to Catan for jungle work, 4 workers move 1NE and mine another hill, 1 worker goes to connect Aarhus.
Five workeers 1NE of Bananenbucht, clear jungle, 1 turn -> head north towards Aarhus/Eisenstadt.
Three workers 1W-1SW of Neu-Olso, mining Dyes, 1 turn -> roads a banana.
Three workers 1NSW of Neu-Olso, roading a mountain (Iron), 2 turns -> work around München.
Four workers, 2SE of Bergen, draining marsh, 3 turns -> work around München.


Next City Builds

• Oasenstadt: switch barracks to Heroic Epic on Turn 0 (End of 370 AD).
• Bergen: slave -> slave via cash rushing, down to size 1, then start library.
• Königsbeg: worker -> worker
• Koloossusstadt: Heroic Epic to Forbidden Palace, prebuild for Copernicus Observatory.
• Copenhagen: settler -> worker (wastes 4 shields) then settler/abandon.
• Hamburg: library in 7 -> Horse.
• Aarhus: rLongbow -> library in 38.
• Eisenstadt: library in 2 -> Mace -> Mace.
• München: library in 6 -> market (next to a river).
• Die Siedler von Catan: market in 15 -> Mace in 6 -> Mace in 6.
• Neu-Oslo: Worker in 4 -> walls in 10.
• Wilhelmshaven: library in 3 -> Pike in 6.
• Goldstadt: courthouse in 7 -> library (?)
• Walstadt: harbor in 27 -> library in 37.
• Odense: rSpear in 18.
• Hareid: rPike in 28.
• Bananenbucht: worker in 8 -> walls in 10.
• Fischberg: harbor in 15.
• Westenburgberg: harbor in 21.
• Trondhiem: vPike in 13 switch to slave in 3, cash rush more slaves, down to size 1, then vPike again.

No new cities planned.
Theology in 12, though it could come down.

 

[Lanzelot]

Harbours count as a military improvement since they produce veteran ships, so they're half-price for militaristic civs.

Exactly. That's what makes Germany such a great research civ on water maps: half-priced harbours to get all that coastal commerce quickly, and half-priced libraries/universities to double it...

The only civ that can do it even better, is Byzantium: SCI and SEA. The seafaring trait also gives half-priced harbours, plus an additional commerce in all coastal towns.

 

[Lanzelot]

Next Worker Tasks(NW to SE)

Don't forget to join the next couple of workers that roll off the assembly line in Königsberg to Kolossusstadt. (And then 1-2 to Hamburg, once it has grown to 7.) That should bring the research time below 10 turns.
(I think, I already mentioned that like 3 turnsets ago, but so far no one has done it yet... With harbor, Colossus and library, the coastal tiles at Kolossusstadt provide 2/0/6, much more than the 2/1/2 or 3/0/2 that can be gained from clearing a jungle tile. So utilizing those juicy tiles should have been our top priority -- the jungle in the third ring can wait till later...)

Also, for the next growth cycle of Hamburg, set it to +4fpt instead of +3fpt.

Next City Builds)

All fine except:
- Bergen: slave -> slave via cash rushing, down to size 1, then start library.
We don't need to decide already at this point of time, but perhaps a courthouse before library is better.
- The library in Aarhus will of course finish faster than in 38 turns, once we have 2-3 workers up there.
- Trondhiem: vPike in 13 switch to slave in 3, cash rush more slaves, down to size 1, then vPike again.
If we want that FP up and running before our GA starts, we can't afford building vPikes there... Switch to slave immediately, rush 3 more slaves (6 turns), rush courthouse and market (4 turns) and then start the FP, while regrowing as quickly as possible and also joining native workers. The slaves can already improve the tiles around Trondheim.

The MAPT deals should give us an additional 234g and 2gpt, so with a total of almost 500g on the bank account we should be able to afford these rushes. (If not, we might also consider planting and chopping 2-3 forests into court/market, before irrigating the wines. That would of course mean we need to send a couple of native workers there in oder to get it done on time. These workers could than later be joined to Trondheim, once it hits size 7.)