Additional buildings discussion

[Leoreth]

I have some ideas for additional buildings, again mostly targeting the modern era. The primary motivation this comes from is that the late Industrial and following eras come with the introduction of corporations, which in turn produce a lot of additional unhappiness and pollution, and the introduction of energy consuming buildings, which further produce bad health. There have been repeated complaints that those side effects are excessively punishing, and come with little means to combat them.

I agree with this to some extent, in particular for corporations, whose spread you cannot control and where the benefits sometimes do not even outweigh the drawbacks. For energy consuming buildings, I see less of an issue, because their unhealth is part of the drawback and you are not supposed to build all of them in every situation, especially before you have clean energy.

I have plans to change how corporations work later but it's clear that a stopgap solution is needed. So here are some building ideas, some related to providing more health and happiness, some just ideas I had independent of that question. I am putting them all up for discussion, but the mention here in this thread does not mean that any or all of them will actually be included.

Radiology Center (Nuclear Power)
+1 health per 25% research rate
(could require access to Rare Earths when they are introduced)

Gym (Television)
+1 health per 20% culture rate

Zoo (Ecology)
+1 happiness from Fur, Ivory, Camel, Whale (animal resources that expire in the late game)

Arsenal (Combined Arms)
+2 experience for Gunpowder and Siege units

Museum (Psychology)
+1 happiness per 33% research rate

Social Security Agency (Social Services)
-50% unhappiness from corporations

Internment Camp (Power Projection)
+5 unhappiness
+1 happiness per 10% espionage rate
-25% war weariness
+3 happiness with Totalitarianism

Amusement Park (Pneumatics)
+1 happiness per 33% gold rate

 

[Steb]

Gym (Television)
+1 health per 20% culture rate

What's the link with culture here?

Zoo (Ecology)
+1 happiness from Fur, Ivory, Camel, Whale (animal resources that expire in the late game)

Love this.

Museum (Psychology)
+1 happiness per 33% research rate

I support a Museum building. Then I suppose the current Museum Great Artist building would be changed? We discussed this in relation to Great Explorers IIRC. Great Explorers could have a Natural History Museum great building, and Great Artists an Art School or something.

Social Security Agency (Social Services)
-50% unhappiness from corporations

Also a great idea.

Internment Camp (Power Projection)
+5 unhappiness
+1 happiness per 10% espionage rate
-25% war weariness
+3 happiness with Totalitarianism

Ehhhh... Not a fan of a building providing both happiness and unhappiness, with the ratio depending on the circumstances. I would probably rarely or never build this. Especially if it can't be destroyed. Also, not a fan of having this building in the game in general.

 

[Cacaso]

Radiology Center (Nuclear Power)
+1 health per 25% research rate
(could require access to Rare Earths when they are introduced)

I liked this

Gym (Television)
+1 health per 20% culture rate

perhaps, putting +1 health per culture rate of 10% and imposing a maximum limit of + 3 / + 4. I think it would be more useful, because I imagine that there are few situations where you would get the most out of this building.

Zoo (Ecology)
+1 happiness from Fur, Ivory, Camel, Whale (animal resources that expire in the late game)

I really liked this idea, being able to give an additional use to animal resources that have expired would be very good, especially with the resource Camel, because after the age of the units of this resource passes, it becomes almost useless. Perhaps a similar idea for the resource horse would be good, perhaps a "jockey club / Horse racing / equestrianism / any other better name for it" building that could give this additional use to another resource that loses functionality as it progresses in the tech tree.

 

[Leoreth]

What's the link with culture here?

I was thinking in terms of how the entertainment industry drives body image etc. to get people to work out. I just don't think a +x health on the same terms as a hospital makes sense for such a building.

I support a Museum building. Then I suppose the current Museum Great Artist building would be changed? We discussed this in relation to Great Explorers IIRC. Great Explorers could have a Natural History Museum great building, and Great Artists an Art School or something.

Yeah, forgot to mention this. Or a Conservatory.

Ehhhh... Not a fan of a building providing both happiness and unhappiness, with the ratio depending on the circumstances. I would probably rarely or never build this. Especially if it can't be destroyed. Also, not a fan of having this building in the game in general.

True, for your last concern, I am also not sure if that's a good idea. That's why I added a break even point to this building so it's only ever considered by civs that go into a spy economy or run Totalitarianism, instead of making it a no brainer building that everyone gets.

Alternatively, you could do a Secret Police building that is basically a next level copy of the constabulary building?

perhaps, putting +1 health per culture rate of 10% and imposing a maximum limit of + 3 / + 4. I think it would be more useful, because I imagine that there are few situations where you would get the most out of this building.

Actually, maybe outright +1 health per 10% is also okay. When are you really going to run 50+% culture.

 

[1SDANi]

On the topic of internment camps:

I personally have always found this mod's willingness to represent painful parts of our world's history - the colonial slave trade, the conquests of the Mongol Empire, the Japanese invasion of Manchuria, the genocide of the Native Americans, among many others- a very grounding aspect. Their existence reminds you that this isn't some glorious quest to become a nation to stand the abstract concept of the test of time, but rather a tangential learning tool in game form, a way to become interested in history and learn it, even the ugly parts. Almost every action represents some form of oppression or conquest. The settlement of a city in unclaimed land almost always involved the displacement, subjugation, or outright murder of local inhabitants. From the very first button you press, your civilization is committing very despicable misdeeds.

While there's been talk prior about how there's a massive difference in our modern reaction to tragedies whose effects are still felt today and actions which are generic or outdated enough to not be as painful, I feel there's room for a discussion on their role in grounding us and ensuring we don't make light of what our gameplay actions represent.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

If we're getting internment camps does this mean the Berlin Wall is going to be a Great Wonder too?

 

[Visard]

Gas Plant (Refining)
Provides Power with Oil (+1 )

"Natural gas power stations generate a quarter of world electricity"
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-gas-conference-methane-idUKKBN1JP27E

 

[Steb]

I agree that representing problematic historical stuff is fine, but we don't strictly need to either. My problem is internment camps is that historically they don't last long. They're used by authoritarian or totalitarian governments (which, especially the latter, tend to last only a few years) or by democratic governments during wartime (which are also quite short at the scale of world history). I don't want to build an internment camp, then switch civics or sign peace for whatever reason, and be stuck with the building until the end of the game.

Maybe they could be a project that would provide a temporary boost during wartime. They could also boost production, so that they aren't just about (un)happiness.

I wonder how feasible/acceptable it would be to tie the project to cultural or religious minorities in the city. You build it, select the minority, get happiness/unhappiness/production based on the relative importance of the minority, and possibly a diplo penalty with the targeted culture's civ... Just throwing ideas out there, I'm reaaaally not sure this is the right direction to go in.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

My problem is internment camps is that historically they don't last long. They're used by authoritarian or totalitarian governments (which, especially the latter, tend to last only a few years) or by democratic governments during wartime (which are also quite short at the scale of world history). I don't want to build an internment camp, then switch civics or sign peace for whatever reason, and be stuck with the building until the end of the game.

Both the US and EU are using internment camps for refugees at this very moment.

FWIW, maybe the building could have radically different effects depending on which civics you run? Germany's concentration camps are arguably in use today for cultural and educational reasons that can be abstracted as cultural output in-game. How about you can't build Internment Camps while running Egalitarianism or some such, but if you switch to Egalitarianism after you have already built them all their effects are replaced with a small +2 Culture per Turn output?

 

[merijn_v1]

I agree that representing problematic historical stuff is fine, but we don't strictly need to either. My problem is internment camps is that historically they don't last long. They're used by authoritarian or totalitarian governments (which, especially the latter, tend to last only a few years) or by democratic governments during wartime (which are also quite short at the scale of world history). I don't want to build an internment camp, then switch civics or sign peace for whatever reason, and be stuck with the building until the end of the game.

Maybe they could be a project that would provide a temporary boost during wartime. They could also boost production, so that they aren't just about (un)happiness.

I wonder how feasible/acceptable it would be to tie the project to cultural or religious minorities in the city. You build it, select the minority, get happiness/unhappiness/production based on the relative importance of the minority, and possibly a diplo penalty with the targeted culture's civ... Just throwing ideas out there, I'm reaaaally not sure this is the right direction to go in.

Realism Invictus has some buildings tied to civics. When you switch civics, the building becomes inactive, providing no bonus or malus anymore but it stays in the city. When you switch back to the required civic it becomes active again. Something like this could be considered for buildings like this.

 

[1SDANi]

Yeah, internment camps are usually rather short-lived, I agree that secret police should probably be used instead. Fills the same role of representing a hostile and oppressive government that does not respect the rule of law.

 

[Crimean Lord]

I have some ideas for additional buildings, again mostly targeting the modern era. The primary motivation this comes from is that the late Industrial and following eras come with the introduction of corporations, which in turn produce a lot of additional unhappiness and pollution, and the introduction of energy consuming buildings, which further produce bad health. There have been repeated complaints that those side effects are excessively punishing, and come with little means to combat them.

I agree with this to some extent, in particular for corporations, whose spread you cannot control and where the benefits sometimes do not even outweigh the drawbacks. For energy consuming buildings, I see less of an issue, because their unhealth is part of the drawback and you are not supposed to build all of them in every situation, especially before you have clean energy.

I have plans to change how corporations work later but it's clear that a stopgap solution is needed. So here are some building ideas, some related to providing more health and happiness, some just ideas I had independent of that question. I am putting them all up for discussion, but the mention here in this thread does not mean that any or all of them will actually be included.

Radiology Center (Nuclear Power)
+1 health per 25% research rate
(could require access to Rare Earths when they are introduced)

Gym (Television)
+1 health per 20% culture rate

Zoo (Ecology)
+1 happiness from Fur, Ivory, Camel, Whale (animal resources that expire in the late game)

Arsenal (Combined Arms)
+2 experience for Gunpowder and Siege units

Museum (Psychology)
+1 happiness per 33% research rate

Social Security Agency (Social Services)
-50% unhappiness from corporations

Internment Camp (Power Projection)
+5 unhappiness
+1 happiness per 10% espionage rate
-25% war weariness
+3 happiness with Totalitarianism

Amusement Park (Pneumatics)
+1 happiness per 33% gold rate

I support all of them
Also I advocate of Public SHOOL - I think it will be Industrial Building
+ 1 to science point to all specialis in city
+ 1 to commerse (free market)
+ 1 to production (planned economy)

and perhaps there is sense to "cut" current Hospital to two different Buldings
for example: Hospital + Center of Health
First one will represent hospitals of Victorian'Era etc
and Centrer of Health will represent more advance level of clinics
+ 0.5. health for every specialist in city
+ 1 commerce for every specialist in city

 

[hnrysml]

I was thinking about how important grain fermentation was in leading to the formation of early states and had an idea for an ancient era brewery building, which as far as I can recall isn't yet included (please discount this post if i am wrong). My idea was that the effect could be receive an additional copy of improved grain resources worked by this city. That way it would be an early growth building for empires that want to expand without giving too extreme a bonus, or giving too much health to skyrocket the city building it. For me this idea provides a satisfying abstraction of the concept unlike a benefit such as raw health or happiness (also though maybe some effect in relation to happiness could be valid), especially since it would require you to work the resource, simulating the way states such as Egypt and Sumeria partly managed their economies with state grain fields and beer production.
Most people in this forum will know how for most of history since the rise of agriculture beer and other fermented drinks were not simply alcoholic beverages (and in fact they were very low alcoholic content compared with today's) but provided most of the essential nutrition otherwise unavailable to agricultural and urban populations. For this reason too it seems important for the idea to be included in some way.
Again, I haven't been monitoring meticulously all the developments so if the idea is already taken into consideration please ignore.

 

[Strijder21]

I think a part of the underlying problem is that the amount of resources on the map is (more or less constant), and the AI is very unwilling to trade their last copy of a resource (even if it isn't doing them any good in their small cities).

Pharmaceutics Store
Requires Microbiology and Synthetics
Requires a Laboratory and a Hospital
+1
Provides 1 Pharmaceuticals (+1 to two cities)

Resort
Requires Tourism
City must be either on coast or have Influential Culture or better
+10% +25% if Influential Culture or better
+10% +25% if on coast
Move Hotels back to Railroad; Tourism for the rich was already a phenomenon in the nineteenth century.

Retirement Home
Requires Social Services
-25% from Population
-5% when city is unhealthy

 

[Crimean Lord]

I think a part of the underlying problem is that the amount of resources on the map is (more or less constant), and the AI is very unwilling to trade their last copy of a resource (even if it isn't doing them any good in their small cities).

Pharmaceutics Store
Requires Microbiology and Synthetics
Requires a Laboratory and a Hospital
+1
Provides 1 Pharmaceuticals (+1 to two cities)

Resort
Requires Tourism
City must be either on coast or have Influential Culture or better
+10% +25% if Influential Culture or better
+10% +25% if on coast
Move Hotels back to Railroad; Tourism for the rich was already a phenomenon in the nineteenth century.

Retirement Home
Requires Social Services
-25% from Population
-5% when city is unhealthy

100% agree
Few days ago I've found a commercial papers about Russian Empire' hotels in the early 1900

Perhaps RESORT could be un upgrade of hotel' branch

 

[Crimean Lord]

I' am supporter of particular branches of buildings
What about airport' mini-branch?)

Air-Strip (appeared after "Flight")
It represents minimum of aviation' suggestions: just regular air-strip and a few workshops

Airport (appeared after "Aviation")
Technically is the current one which give extra rout and experience for aviation' units

Air-Hub (appeared after "Aerodynamics")
Advanced airports of large cities with a lot of terminals/hungers/shops
+ 1 extra route
+ 1 to main specialist' attribute

 

[1SDANi]

I' am supporter of particular branches of buildings
What about airport' mini-branch?)

Air-Strip (appeared after "Flight")
It represents minimum of aviation' suggestions: just regular air-strip and a few workshops

Airport (appeared after "Aviation")
Technically is the current one which give extra rout and experience for aviation' units

Air-Hub (appeared after "Aerodynamics")
Advanced airports of large cities with a lot of terminals/hungers/shops
+ 1 extra route
+ 1 to main specialist' attribute

Thinking about it, airports have kind of a grab bag of individually strong effects that could be split off without having any individually unimportant parts. Lemme take a spin at this

Airstrip to represent the prolonged presence of minimal government air installations and personnel. Can Airlift 1 Unit per turn, +1 Air Unit Capacity.
Airbase to represent an ingrained government presence of key administrative and air force assets. Requires Airstrip. +3 XP for new Air Units, +2 Air Unit Capacity
Airport to represent a strong investment in local aviation by private and public interests. Requires Airstrip +1 Trade Routes, +1 Air Unit Capacity

 

[Steb]

Thinking about it, airports have kind of a grab bag of individually strong effects that could be split off without having any individually unimportant parts. Lemme take a spin at this

Airstrip to represent the prolonged presence of minimal government air installations and personnel. Can Airlift 1 Unit per turn, +1 Air Unit Capacity.
Airbase to represent an ingrained government presence of key administrative and air force assets. Requires Airstrip. +3 XP for new Air Units, +2 Air Unit Capacity
Airport to represent a strong investment in local aviation by private and public interests. Requires Airstrip +1 Trade Routes, +1 Air Unit Capacity

Oh, this is a good idea. At the very least, it would make sense to split military and commercial aviation. They're usually distinct installations.

• Military: focus on air unit capacity, XP for air units, airlift military units
• Commercial: focus on trade routes, trade connections, airlift unlimited civilian units (e.g. spies, and including to foreign civs), maybe interact with tourist buildings (hotels), can give some air unit capacity too

It would also be a way to give more value to the Flight tech, which has always felt lackluster.