Advanced Great People

[strategyonly]

That is my opinion of python modules.
It is a way of saying, you do your stuff, I do my stuff.
Then lets place both of them in the same place and all works well.
All works well if and only if they do not interfere with each other.

the only way is open up every CvEventManager file and see if they affect.

I was informed by DH that when C2C uses BUG it cant use the normal CvEventManager, otherwise i'd have a TON of extra stuff added already that i want to add to the game for gameplay value (ie all of tsentom1's stuff).

I personally would like everything in the CORE but then you take away the options value of a person having it or not? At least that is what i was informed of.

 

[platyping]

I was helping Xyth with his History Rewritten mod.
BUG is included, so is Sevopedia.
He still uses the CvEventManager

Another not so obvious example.

When unit built:
A) Makes a clone of it
B) Converts to UU of another Civ
C) Grants a random Promotion

Looking at them, they seem to be doing very different things.
However, thinking logically:
(A) should be triggered last, else the clone will not be the UU or without the random promotion.
(B) must come before (C) because it is possible that UU comes with free promotion(s).
You would not want to grant a promotion that ended up as the free promotion of the converted UU

 

[strategyonly]

I was helping Xyth with his History Rewritten mod.
BUG is included, so is Sevopedia.
He still uses the CvEventManager

Another not so obvious example.

When unit built:
A) Makes a clone of it
B) Converts to UU of another Civ
C) Grants a random Promotion

Looking at them, they seem to be doing very different things.
However, thinking logically:
(A) should be triggered last, else the clone will not be the UU or without the random promotion.
(B) must come before (C) because it is possible that UU comes with free promotion(s).
You would not want to grant a promotion that ended up as the free promotion of the converted UU

I wish DH was around, he knows better on this.

But i was informed that YES it is BUG, but when RoM changed over Zappara changed everything to its OWN EventManger (ROMEventManager and ROMGameUtils also included for this changed) and has a Init in the Config folder just for stuff added.
He has it so everything has to be run though this way, through BUG using these??

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

We already have a "Universal Health Care" wonder. For some reason some people really hate that it is available no matter what your government civic.

We use BUG modular Python so there is no CvEventManager.py

 

[Thunderbrd]

Yeah, if any building screams out for a civic dependency that's the one.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yeah, if any building screams out for a civic dependency that's the one.

Well to be honest it seems to be only people in the USA that think the building needs to be based on a civic. The rest of the world just does not get the US view on this since many have such a thing to one extent or another

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... you need to understand that it IS a civic styled concept. It's not an absolute automatic natural thing for a nation to provide this. Over here, there's people quite happy to be seeing us taking steps in that direction but those looking at it carefully are terrified of the costs on the system leading to a potential complete collapse of our economy. Do understand that the US has been spending the same funds most nations are currently using towards nationalized health care on our military, which has been assuring stability and defense for the very allied nations that are investing, instead, into their national health care. The reality is we very well may not be able to handle supporting both.

That and politics are really fouling up the concept to the point that its a huge porkbarrel scenario for the most part (bureaucracy expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy)... and may not even end up providing us with anything much more than a requirement for citizens to invest in an expense we can't even afford lest we be fined the same amount we couldn't afford in the first place. It's kinda looking as if its shaping up to be a bad deal on all sides - better to have gone without health insurance and a nationalized plan entirely.

Basically our plan involves playing into the idea that the only reason people can't afford health care is because they haven't been able to afford it. (Thus the expenses have gone up for all since so few can afford it.)

We're the last nation of the 'modern world' to attempt to adopt a health care policy of this nature... the Swiss were similar to us until they adopted one. If things take place in any kind of similar manner to how it went down in Switzerland, our (albeit totally grossly manipulative and corrupt) multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical industry will crash as theirs did thereafter. With all the outsourcing our companies do now - basically employing the rest of the world first and us second, there's not going to be much left for us to find to employ ourselves with.

It's really a mess for us trying to make any kind of adjustment in that direction.

 

[strategyonly]

@ DH

Are you working on anything at all that has The Great People stuff by Playtyping in your to do list? If not i can do some of it as a module and then see what needs to be changed/added/deleted etc???

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

I'm in the USA, and I feel that it should be buildable regardless of civic. Then again, perhaps there should be one civic that cannot build it, while all the others can, to represent the situation the USA is in. Possibly Bureaucracy.

 

[Praetyre]

Well to be honest it seems to be only people in the USA that think the building needs to be based on a civic. The rest of the world just does not get the US view on this since many have such a thing to one extent or another

I have lived in New Zealand for my entire life. I have also never set foot on American soil, though I have naturally met many Americans in my time, very few of which I ever discussed politics of any sort with. The only relative of mine I am aware of that has resided in the United States was one of my grandmothers, who worked as a nanny for the Mafia. And as far as I can tell, I am the chief advocate (indeed, the only advocate besides a single other post on the matter in a topic and by a user I have long since forgotten) of this change. Though I wouldn't be surprised if some others have PMed other members of the team independently on this subject.

Put simply, healthcare policy is little but an extension of welfare policy, both in our world and in that of C2C's system. I am struggling to think of a single individual who advocated programs along the lines of Obamacare or the NHS (leaving aside the distinctions between these two proposals) but not some form of welfare system, nor of one country which has one but not the other. The converse can be true, but only in a limited sense; there are some individuals who advocate a very minimal welfare state while opposing these kinds of healthcare policies, but in practice even their minimal welfare would go partially towards the purchase of private healthcare, in a manner not unlike that of proposed school voucher systems.

I'm in the USA, and I feel that it should be buildable regardless of civic. Then again, perhaps there should be one civic that cannot build it, while all the others can, to represent the situation the USA is in. Possibly Bureaucracy.

There is no standard I can conceive of whereby the contemporary United States is a Bureaucracy and other Western countries are not. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm puzzled as to how you came to this conclusion.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@ DH

Are you working on anything at all that has The Great People stuff by Playtyping in your to do list? If not i can do some of it as a module and then see what needs to be changed/added/deleted etc???

Yes and no. The ideas are good but some don't quite fit. Also unless it has changed I hate the religious festival icon.

I need to get the Natural Wonders in first, then I will go through the list and see which ones fit or not and why not.

Edit For example one of the Great General missions is "Art of War". In C2C we have a wonder "Sun Tzu's Art of War". Does this mean we should replace the wonder with the action? Should we let the GG build the wonder? What about later books on war Clausewitz for example? Or should we have all? Personally I would allow the GG to build more of the war related wonders (Sun Tzu's Art of War, Archimedie's Workshop, Triumph Column and more) and have the war books as well. I need to look at the code to see how this is implemented, since we use buildings very where I would have the "Art of War" action give a free building to all cities which gives the +2exp.

 

[DRJ]

Yes and no. The ideas are good but some don't quite fit. Also unless it has changed I hate the religious festival icon.

I need to get the Natural Wonders in first, then I will go through the list and see which ones fit or not and why not.

Edit For example one of the Great General missions is "Art of War". In C2C we have a wonder "Sun Tzu's Art of War". Does this mean we should replace the wonder with the action? Should we let the GG build the wonder? What about later books on war Clausewitz for example? Or should we have all? Personally I would allow the GG to build more of the war related wonders (Sun Tzu's Art of War, Archimedie's Workshop, Triumph Column and more) and have the war books as well. I need to look at the code to see how this is implemented, since we use buildings very where I would have the "Art of War" action give a free building to all cities which gives the +2exp.

What about Machiavelli's "The Prince"? Would fit nice in the Early Renaissance. With Sun Tzus Book at Ancient, Machiavelli in early Renaissance and Clausewitz in early Industrial we could have a nice continuity. I think those wonders should be able to be rushed by Great Generals or Great Statesmen.

@DH

Spoiler :

you said in the other thread you think a Great Lawyer is a Great Statesman but I meant it like we use the word "Großer Staatsman" in german: also (and sometimes only) in the Sense of foreign policy (Bismarck was regarded as a "Great Statesman" especially for his role in dealing with other nations, whereas because of his interior policy that - much like Merkel today - tried to dig away public opinion away from the left by adapting a little social reform (better read as: not toooo much exploitation) to keep main interests of the elites was always discussed more controversely in regard to "Great Statesmanship".
Another example: I would also think of Thomas Jefferson as a Great Statesman because of his Foreign Policy towards France for example. So I thought the Great Statesman would be like the Foreign/Diplomatic GP and the Great Lawyer as the Interior/Domestic GP type.

We could have a little "Book Mod", that contains important books of each of the GP branches in each of the eras and which can be "built" by GP when certain prerequesites are met.

Something like:
Great Lawyer Book in Ancient: Hammurabis Code of Law for example (idk, is it a religion specific wonder atm?)
or
Great Scientists Book in Ancient Archimedes On the Sphere and Cylinder
(I realize there are Archimedes Engeneering Great Wonders [like the Mirrors of Syracuse or his famous Screw] but some Great Persons had a theoretical as well as a practical impact, especially in the age when polymaths were much more powerful than today as at least an average bit of education is far more common by now.

Also I think that maybe only the "publishing" of a book by a great person could lead to Follow-Up-Wonders. Especially in ancient times but also during the renaissance as well as -of course!- also today this makes sense as Great Persons, mostly Inventors and Artists,Musicians and Strategists or skilled Warlords were invited by many different Kings or influental people to work for them . Think of da Vinci or Columbus...writing/inventing something at one place/court, building or exploring it for the other.

Or the special/Scripture/Book of a GP branch could always be kind of a "Manhattan Project Approach" for each Era. As long as it hasn't been published certain Wonders that depend on it can't be built... I don't want to make it too restrictive so maybe it could be an incentive to spend a GP to write a GP Branch Era specific Scripture/Book:

What about this: when you, for example wrote that Ancient Era Science Book you receive a production bonus to science wonders and science techs of that n Ancient Era or even more specific boni.

Also, you could spend a GP on a Book but only if it fits your strategy (like: Culture Book yes Military Book no)
We could also make it so that every nation could build that Book of that Era with its GPs - so the books would something like national wonder books (there should be more than enough books to be picked of the different Eras) and also an Great Wonder Book that all civs compete about (slightly better effects than the national era book).
You could only build one though, National or Great Book of the branch/era.

Maybe you could per Era only build one Book of one Branch. This way it could especially with developing traits allow to even more specialize on certain traits or to catch up with the neglected parts of the game (for example specialized in science trait but building writing a military book to get at least some defense


I could try to make a excel sheet of books for the different branches/eras if you guys like the idea.

Special buttons should not be needed at first I think just the button in GP UI that says "settle in city" could be duplicated and then modified to "write influential book", right?

 

[MagnusIlluminus]

There is no standard I can conceive of whereby the contemporary United States is a Bureaucracy and other Western countries are not. I'm open to the possibility, but I'm puzzled as to how you came to this conclusion.

Eh. Yeah, personally I would have thought that the USA would fall more under the heading of 'Federal' myself, though there is a lot of bureaucracy present here as well. The problem with the game is that any given Civ can only have one civic choice from a particular sub-category at a time, unlike reality where we have several at the same time.

On the other hand, you bring up a good point in that it should be based on the 'Welfare' category and not the 'Rule' category. IMHO, it should be allowed to all of them except for Survival, Charity, and Private. Just my (revised) two-cents worth.

 

[DRJ]

The problem with the game is that any given Civ can only have one civic choice from a particular sub-category at a time, unlike reality where we have several at the same time.

Yeah why not allow to have 2 active for the same time in certain situations? Could be the "small golden age" thing we are still looking for (i am sure there are other concepts about it but so far i haven't seen any of it in the game
So you could either have a fading over which means both civics stay active the same time and only the best features do count (for example civic A has +20% maintenance for cities and +5% culture and civic B has +10% maintenance and +5% science -- as long as civic A and B are active the same time the total output would be
+10%maintenance, +5%science, +5%culture.

You could gain the multiple civic combinantions per small golden age modus or maybe also per GPs great lawyers or great politicians, imho.
Note the time the combined civics are active would always be limited and you could only have 1 category of combined civics active at the same time [or maybe 2 if owning a "Reformation" (or any branch specific) wonder(s) - I am sure we could assemble a list of peaceful civic transitions in history and base the available combined civics on that]

 

[CIVPlayer8]

Well to be honest it seems to be only people in the USA that think the building needs to be based on a civic. The rest of the world just does not get the US view on this since many have such a thing to one extent or another

Sometime in the not-so-immediate-future, I'll create a Civic category called, "Healthcare". When I do, we could probably remove this wonder or something. Its not a priority now, though.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I could try to make a excel sheet of books for the different branches/eras if you guys like the idea.

I like the idea.

 

[LeftBower]

I'm in the USA, and I feel that it should be buildable regardless of civic. Then again, perhaps there should be one civic that cannot build it, while all the others can, to represent the situation the USA is in. Possibly Bureaucracy.

Since the USofA is an oddity in the modern world for not having it, I'd agree that it should be a case of one civic locking it out. If it's going to be handled as a civic type, I'm of the opinion the best way is something like this:

Sometime in the not-so-immediate-future, I'll create a Civic category called, "Healthcare". When I do, we could probably remove this wonder or something. Its not a priority now, though.

Hopefully rather then being a yes/no there will be a number of options, even if there is: Free market, Small Public, Large Public, Universal Public, Private Monopoly and Government Monopoly or some such. If you really wanted to expend on this, one could have a number of Healthcare Corporations that can be created with varying effects.

 

[Praetyre]

I still don't see a convincing argument it should be seperate from Welfare, per the points I raised above.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I still don't see a convincing argument it should be seperate from Welfare, per the points I raised above.

Agreed.

Saying 'everybody has this so the one nation that doesn't must be the odd nation with a civic nobody else has' is probably true, but that should not imply that all civics but one would enable the building. In most eras, you look at the list of civics nations have adopted in a given category and there's really only 2 or at most 3 all share and usually that is based on tech development. Where all nations are tech equal, you see only one or two deviating from the rest of the crowd on a given civic category. In such a world, most of the citizens of the countries representing the vast majority would probably be out to say how obvious it should be that this is just something countries naturally establish as policy and shouldn't even be a civic as a result. It'd be the people of, or the close observers of, the nation that deviates that would recognize there's a whole world of other ways to approach things on the subject.

Y'all should understand, I'm a huge supporter of public healthcare. But I think it should be as simple and effective and efficient as the military free healthcare and can't see why its being so greatly overcomplicated here - except to admit that all these complications and bureaucracies are playing into the hands of the giant super-wealthy private interests that, anymore, seem to write our laws for the politicians they bought off to present into law.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Great People Literature can work in the same way as the Myths of Sea, Land and Air do now. There is the unique building that can't be built in a city with the free building. It gives the free building to all cities. The only problem is that the unique building needs to be worthwhile to be built. In the case of the Myths the myth is the worthwhile building and the only point of the free building is to make the main building a one per nation without using up a wonder slot.

Spoiler :

This is achieved by

		<BuildingInfo>
			<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_BOOK_[B]????[/B]</BuildingClass>
			<Type>BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_BOOK</ArtDefineTag>
			<bNeverCapture>1</bNeverCapture>
			<ObsoleteTech>[B]????[/B]</ObsoleteTech>
			<PrereqTech>[B]????[/B]</PrereqTech>
			<FreeBuilding>BUILDINGCLASS_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_I</FreeBuilding>
			<iCost>-1</iCost>
			<PrereqNotBuildingClasses>
				<PrereqNotBuildingClass>
					<BuildingClassMustNotHave>BUILDINGCLASS_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_I</BuildingClassMustNotHave>
					<bPrereqNot>1</bPrereqNot>
				</PrereqNotBuildingClass>
			</PrereqNotBuildingClasses>
			[B]effects[/B]
		</BuildingInfo>

		<BuildingInfo>
			<BuildingClass>BUILDINGCLASS_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_I</BuildingClass>
			<Type>BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_I</Type>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_I</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_BUILDING_BOOK_[B]????[/B]_I_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
			</Strategy>
			<Advisor>[B]????[/B]</Advisor>
			<ArtDefineTag>ART_DEF_BUILDING_BOOK</ArtDefineTag>
			<ObsoleteTech>[B]????[/B]</ObsoleteTech>
			<FreeStartEra>ERA_[B]????[/B]</FreeStartEra>
			<bNeverCapture>1</bNeverCapture>
			<iCost>-1</iCost>
			<iMinAreaSize>-1</iMinAreaSize>
			[B]effects[/B]
		</BuildingInfo>

So what we need is

• name of the book
• which Great Person
• Prerequisite techs
• Obsolete tech (if any)
• If start is not the prehistoric era what era is it free in
• The effects of the building.

For example:-

• Art of War;
  - Great General,
  - Prerequisite tech <ancient tech>,
  - Obsolete <galactic tech>,
  - Free for Medieval starts
  - unique building- +2 towards GG;
  - free building - +1 Exp all units; +1 Exp land combat units