Advice on Earth18 game

[revengeofmakno]

On Warlord level, you can get away with that kind of warrior rush. Going for Rome before Spain while letting holy city Madrid get large enough so it would not auto-raze would seem to be a preferable tactic.

Nonetheless, the basic point about aggression is valid. It pays off on Earth 18.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for the feedback.

Sadly your savegame didn't load. Got an error message about BUFFY. I assume it's a mod. I already have BUG and a dll that claimed to be 50% faster than normal. Is it safe to install this BUFFY thing on top of it?

Yes, I probably waited too long. Did try to get Rome as the first civ, but they had archers there, and they piled up fast when I declared war on them. Then it took half an eternity to kill them off. Think I needed catas tbh. Later on half the world declared war on me in quick fashion. Some of that may have been down to using a different religion. They seemed to cool down somewhat when I noticed that, and changed to judaism.

Did the cities I have look allright though? I tried to make Hamburg a great people farm, but as I'm a new player I'm not really sure how to do that. Built a pile of farms there. Also, I did have 8 cities, but during all the wars the Greeks took Munich and piled in a 20+ stack of doom there. And Cumae flipped to Egypt. Don't understand why that happened, and don't get why Munich didn't flip back. Its border never went further north than the city itself.

I'd like to have another go at that map, but the end game slowness is horribly boring Your strategy sounds pretty good though. Tend to feel it's almost cheating to attack right off the bat, but it's probably needed in Europe. So easy to get boxed in and then restricted by the soon massive Russia and China.

Is it really worth it to move 1 square west? Pretty sure I settled in the starting spot, and I have access to the pig I think you talk about from the off. 1 west would be next to the river, which I've heard is nice. But then I'd lose the corn until the borders expand. Took a shot from my first turn, and am attaching it.

 

[cabert]

1W has fresh water

Attacking with warriors is cheap, in every sense, meaning it's not a very deep strategy, and also it's the most cost effective way to get things done.

To be honest I almost never played through an earth18 map, so I'm giving advice than could use a grain of salt.

 

[cabert]

Thanks for the feedback.

Sadly your savegame didn't load. Got an error message about BUFFY. I assume it's a mod. I already have BUG and a dll that claimed to be 50% faster than normal. Is it safe to install this BUFFY thing on top of it?

Yes, I probably waited too long. Did try to get Rome as the first civ, but they had archers there, and they piled up fast when I declared war on them. Then it took half an eternity to kill them off. Think I needed catas tbh. Later on half the world declared war on me in quick fashion. Some of that may have been down to using a different religion. They seemed to cool down somewhat when I noticed that, and changed to judaism.

Did the cities I have look allright though? I tried to make Hamburg a great people farm, but as I'm a new player I'm not really sure how to do that. Built a pile of farms there. Also, I did have 8 cities, but during all the wars the Greeks took Munich and piled in a 20+ stack of doom there. And Cumae flipped to Egypt. Don't understand why that happened, and don't get why Munich didn't flip back. Its border never went further north than the city itself.

I'd like to have another go at that map, but the end game slowness is horribly boring Your strategy sounds pretty good though. Tend to feel it's almost cheating to attack right off the bat, but it's probably needed in Europe. So easy to get boxed in and then restricted by the soon massive Russia and China.

Is it really worth it to move 1 square west? Pretty sure I settled in the starting spot, and I have access to the pig I think you talk about from the off. 1 west would be next to the river, which I've heard is nice. But then I'd lose the corn until the borders expand. Took a shot from my first turn, and am attaching it.

Buffy is BUG + HoF stuff.
It runs as a mod, so it should be safe with your install, but you won't use your other mods.
There was no intention on my part to say you should use it, it's just because I'm playing almost all my games either for the HoF or for GotM, where you need the HoF mod. Thus the shortcut I have on my desk is for buffy, so I automatically used it, without a thought .

I didn't check thoroughly your save. I do know that starting in Europe with earth18 makes it "necessary" to expand by force, for lack of room and more so with backstabbers all around you (louis, catherine and isabella if you don't follow her religion + praetorians knocking sooner or later).

I played a bit further, and made Europe a german country.
At 1 AD, I have 12 cities, a comfortable tech lead and room for any strat I want.
Stone and marble gave me pyramids + stonehenge + great wall + great library + ..., I settled most great people in Berlin to get the representation bonus, and I can choose my victory condition from there.

Spoiler a picture at 1 AD :

 

[Pangaea]

Buffy is BUG + HoF stuff.
It runs as a mod, so it should be safe with your install, but you won't use your other mods.
There was no intention on my part to say you should use it, it's just because I'm playing almost all my games either for the HoF or for GotM, where you need the HoF mod. Thus the shortcut I have on my desk is for buffy, so I automatically used it, without a thought .

I didn't check thoroughly your save. I do know that starting in Europe with earth18 makes it "necessary" to expand by force, for lack of room and more so with backstabbers all around you (louis, catherine and isabella if you don't follow her religion + praetorians knocking sooner or later).

I played a bit further, and made Europe a german country.
At 1 AD, I have 12 cities, a comfortable tech lead and room for any strat I want.
Stone and marble gave me pyramids + stonehenge + great wall + great library + ..., I settled most great people in Berlin to get the representation bonus, and I can choose my victory condition from there.

Spoiler a picture at 1 AD :

Wow. That's a very impressive save. At least to me. 6 civilization killed off already, including Russia and England. I spent so much time taking out England due to the sea. Looks like you've gotten about 5 great people too, and still have two of them sitting around.

I'm a bit confused about the mods, but I have installed BUFFY now, the version you had, so I could load the game. If I install BUG instead, I get exactly what's in BUFFY except the Hall of Fame checks? Sadly it looks like I can't use for example the startingpoint mod with BUFFY or any other mod right? And BAT can't be run with BUFFY either?

I tried to start a new Earth18 game with France, and attacking Spain pretty much right off the bat. But when I came to her capital my warrior had a 9% combat chance. WTH? 2nd guy lost too, then my defender lost in a 50/50 battle against her guy on my turf, and I got wiped out. The odds and their outcome sometimes has me scratching my head.

Think I will try one more save on this map and bite the bullet on the end-game times. Then try to attack early and see how it goes. Don't really understand why you moved Berlin 1W though. It leaves less space for Paris, but does get freshwater. Is freshwater really worth that for the capital? Thought it was only important for getting better farms and cottages.

Thanks for the save, it was interesting to watch what you have done there. Hopefully I'll learn a few things from it. I'm new to the game, so am just getting my feet wet really. Have therefore not used spies, and after being forced into war with China after a random event last I think I will remove that too. The spy screen did look intriguing, but I'm worried the AI will mess me up by knowing how to use it.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Based on that save, you should win. Next time, do yourself one big favour in Spain and settle on the hill that is one east of the original Madrid (unless Madrid is a holy city which you want to keep). That way you can use the seafood resource on the north coast of Spain. Where you have Munich is okay but not optimal and it also crowds out a potentially good city in Algeria.

 

[Pangaea]

I tried earth 18 with Germany on warlord, normal speed.
Here is what I did :
move the settler 1W (towards France), start building a warrior with the forested pig (= 2F,2H)
after a few turns my explorer gave me a worker from a hut.
When I had 2 warriors and 1 more under production, I moved them towards Paris.
I was lucky, the first warrior won his fight, but there was the second guy ready to finish anyway.
2 capitals for me.
I then built 2 more warriors, and moved them towards madrid.
I got a little less lucky since it autorazed (with buddhism in it ), but it netted me a worker.
I then used 4 warriors for Rome. a third capital for me, another free worker.
I then went for greece.
Another capital.
That's 4 good cities, room for more and a kickstart into the world.
I'm sure you'll find that on earth 18 in Europe, there is no other way than war.

I've tried to repeat this recipe to the letter, but without success. Did you beat "impossible" odds against his warriors? I need 2 warriors to beat his first one, even if he's caught outside his city. And then I need the one who survives this attack plus a new guy to take the one stationed in his city. Did he only have one warrior, who you beat the odds on, and then you strolled into the empty city?

His warrior war first standing on the Hill/forest 75% defence spot 1E, so I waited a turn and attacked when he was on the 50% spot. Only 10% combat chance though.

Spoiler :

The 2nd guy took him with 96% or so. He got a knock or two to the head, but he didn't lose any strength. Still showed 2. So he was full strength when he took on the guy in Paris. Then I moved to the forest next to the Paris. The original spot gave 3.62% chance, think it was the same from the forest.

Spoiler :

This guy got killed of course, and the 2nd took the city with an 86% chance.

Spoiler :

After the 3rd warrior produced in Berlin I felt I had to start producing a Worker as I wasn't so lucky with the huts, but after taking the city I changed to a worker there and another warrior in Berlin. That's where I am now. Still took the city, but it took more time and lost warriors than in your save. I've taken three huts too, but they just gave some gold (x2) and a map. Not very useful.

 

[cabert]

why did you attack the guy outside the city?
just let him walk away

I had better odds because I attacked earlier (less culture in the target city)
Maybe the defender wasn't totally fortified too.
Anyway, it was dumb luck that the first guy killed him.
Same for the hut giving a worker, no skill involved, and still clearly a major boost for me.

 

[Pangaea]

I'm quickly giving up on this. 7 warriors from the forest east of Madrid couldn't beat 3 warriors in Madrid. They killed 1. One!! Unless you can beat ridiculous odds, like cabert, warrior rush doesn't work. They all die, no matter how many warriors I spit out from Paris and Berlin.

Same "kill me please" exercise when I try attacking Rome. 2 warriors there, and they kill everything I send at them. With the odds I'm seeing, you'd think being inside a city gave 1000% defence bonus.

 

[Pangaea]

why did you attack the guy outside the city?
just let him walk away

At least I got a 10% chance then. Inside a city they kill all I send at them. So I tried to take him outside. If I let him walk, I'm wiped out as he strolls into my city. I honestly don't get how you pulled off that game. I'm getting lottery-like odds, and am just giving them experience. Madrid just got a Great General now. Then I gave up and quit. If they have two warriors it's a dead-end. With one it seems doable with 2 or 3 warriors attacking. But 2 in defence and I need a Roman legion.

Yes I'm frustrated

 

[cabert]

I guess you declare too long before you attack.
The trick is to not let them build reinforcements.

edit : rules of thumb for "warrior rush"
- very very early, you will face 1 warrior with only a small bonus from culture = 2 warriors should do. Sometimes you're not lucky, and then you're screwed, so better bring 3 warriors + this should be enough time for their city to grow
- very early, but on a hill, you will face 1 tough warrior. You need 3 warriors, a 4th can be useful on bad rolls.
- early, but not super early, you will face more culture and possibly 2 warriors. you need 6 for yourself (assuming you won't be lucky)
- not really early, either you have a big deal of ready warriors, and you can try for more (promoted warriors + a lot of them) or just leave it until you have something more serious, because you'll face strong defence.

 

[Pangaea]

Thanks for that rule of thumb. In the save the screenshots are from I took Paris in 3320. Not as über-early as you, but still pretty soon. Spain's border is then across the river, which means I'm 3-4 turns walk away from Madrid. She probably only has 1 warrior there, but by the time I get there she has two. My four can't take them out. Even though I'm pumping out warriors every 2-3 turns I can't take her 3.

Was the same with Rome really. Takes a couple of turns to go from the border to Rome, and by then he has 2 warriors. My 4-5 can't take them.

Was hoping to get a good game going today, but haven't even gotten started properly. I simply can't pull off a proper warrior rush. Maybe it's better to try with axemen or chariots instead? Pretty well fed up right now, and economy will probably be bad from few workers as I'm spamming warriors non-stop.

 

[DaveMcW]

Thanks for that rule of thumb. In the save the screenshots are from I took Paris in 3320. Not as über-early as you, but still pretty soon.

Congrats, that is a proper warrior rush!

After you have one capital you can build better units to take your next target.

 

[cabert]

I agree with DMcW, having secured Paris is already good.
I had a "free" worker, thus could go on. Without a worker you're just too inefficient.

 

[Pangaea]

Sorry for being rather irritated yesterday. It was so frustrating to have at least 2:1 troop numbers and still get utterly owned at the gates.

Started a new game late evening, which ended up giving me less than 5 hours of sleep
It went a bit better now, but I didn't even try to take on Spain, as she seemed to go heavy military for some reason. First time she has not founded a religion in my games.

France had two warriors, so I had to time it well so the other guy couldn't stroll into Berlin while the cat was gone. Waited to I had 3 warriors now, and took Paris in 3280. Then I saw several Spanish warriors, so didn't even bother going down there given earlier experiences there. Went to Rome instead, and had Julius Caesar's head on a stick in 2800. Then I headed further east to Greece with 6 warriors (took a while to collect them from here and there). This time I wasn't going to forget the worker like in Rome, so I took 3 extra turns while a warrior headed over to western Turkey (the buggar was building a road there). He only had one defender in Athens, but believe it or not, 4 of my 5 guys died. The two first didn't even rip his shirt.

I was lucky with the huts this time and got a settler, which was settled in the Baltics south of the river. I didn't put it on the coast like cabert in his save, as I wanted to get to the resources there. Not sure what is best, but I tend to go with resources for now as I feel that is "safe". It's 1120 BC now and I have trained two settlers. One I plan to move to Turkey to get to the two wheat spots. Or is it better to go further south and settle by the Jordan river, or by the Israel/Lebanon coast? Both could be very good production areas.

Spoiler :

The other settler I want to send north to either Finland or Norway. Which is best? Just north of Hamburg (in the Baltics), or shall I send him to Norway and settle by the coast west or south?

Don't think I have the troops to take on Russia or Spain yet, given I need such a stupendous amount to take out defended cities, and they both have archers now. As far as I can tell England still don't have archers, but she has gotten a 2nd warrior in London now. I have a Galley, but how does it work to invade there? She has a huge culture reach, so when I declare war will the galley be moved back outside the border? Currently we have open borders. Would like to strike now really, but if I'm moved out it will take time when I can only ship two troops.

Spoiler :

I'm researching Construction now, so if all went very well I could take out England and then take on Spain when I have some catapults ready. Suggestions on technology after Construction would be welcome, as I'm always unsure what to do here. Too many options! Kid in candystore dilemma

Spoiler :

I know Spain has a settler ready, so I don't want to sign open borders with her (though it would be nice to find out exactly what's in Madrid). She would have settled east of Rome if I wasn't incredibly lucky with timing, and Rome's borders expanded north when her settler and archer had come to the stone mine between Barcelona and Rome.

I'm in a pretty good position right now, but I want to secure the whole of Europe. Keeping Spain locked in is nice (hope she doesn't transport anybody out), and it would be great to get to England before they move on to Scandinavia (which may happen any moment). I've also gotten a Great Prophet and built Stonehenge and the Great Wall. Pyramids is almost done too. All in Berlin.

Also, what's up with the site? It's very slow and I get "server is too busy" error message half the time I try to post or navigate. Thank goodness for notepad. I've had to take backups of what I write as I hate losing stuff.

 

[cabert]

The server is too busy because civ 5 just came out. No wonder there is a lot of argument on in the forum out there.

If you don't go for spain and England, you need to have a lot of culture in Paris.
This is why I put stonehenge there (and a lot of other wonders too, but mostly stonehenge).
In your save, I saw you have mixed the great wall, stonehenge and the pyramids are coming too.
This may be a mistake, with mixed GPP. What will you do with your great spy, when it comes?

About your settler, I would settle on the marble. It's a 3hammer city centre tile + fresh water + 3 food resources.

About England, seeing there is only a warrior in the city for now, just load your axe + a warrior (you can upgrade 1 to an axe) in your galley, wait 1 turn, declare war, move your galley, take the city.

edit: you seem in a very good situation from there. I went for the great lighthouse, and thus tried to keep my cities coastal. I don't like being 1 tile away from the coast anyway, except for very strong reasons.

 

[Pangaea]

So it's fine to settle on top of resources? I figured that wasn't a great idea, so had sort of planned to settle 1SE, just north of the mountain. Probably better to get three food resources though, even if I then crosscut the fat cross with Athens a little. Doesn't that matter much now btw, since it's mostly on the sea?

There are two warriors in London now sadly. She had one for a long time, but I only now got a galley. I have two axemen in Rome, which will need 5 turns to go north (due to Barcelona and no border sharing). If I then whip out another galley, I may be able to make it with 4 axemen. Given earlier experiences with 2 or more defenders, I'm afraid I need about 20 though

Buggered about the Great Wonders then. Thought it was nice to put them in one city, as it had good production so I could get them out fast-ish. So it's better to only put wonders who create the same Great Person points in the same city? Not share them like I have done?

Damn this game is complex.. I have a lot to learn.

I plan to take out Spain and England anyway, but I suspect I need catapults for Spain (and Russia), as I had great problems in an earlier save with archers when I only had axemen. I can now produce Swordmen, but as I'm facing archers and not axemen, is it better to use axemen? Does the 50% melee bonus on axemen make up for the 1 extra attack point and 10% city attack for swordmen?
(Hopefully I remembered that correct)

Edit: Holy Nelson. It took half an hour or retries before it finally got posted. Civ 5 has killed the server

 

[revengeofmakno]

Damn this game is complex.. I have a lot to learn.

I plan to take out Spain and England anyway, but I suspect I need catapults for Spain (and Russia), as I had great problems in an earlier save with archers when I only had axemen. I can now produce Swordmen, but as I'm facing archers and not axemen, is it better to use axemen? Does the 50% melee bonus on axemen make up for the 1 extra attack point and 10% city attack for swordmen?
(

If the defender has archers, you definitely want swords but if you have a good number of catapults it won't matter. The main idea is to get on with the task.

The game is complex but you are making it more complex than it needs to be. You started out conquering Europe and had some good success. Finish that job with a vengeance, then you can think about wonders and other shifts in strategy.

Slowing that attack down has given you problems that were not necessary. Spanish and English culture are now seriously crowding you. I'd think of nothing else except crushing Spain and then England while keeping on an eye on Russia. With Spain and England gone, you will be in a hugely powerful strategic position and in a perfect position to consolidate your economy a bit and then take out Russia. When you do take Russia down make sure you cripple them enough that they will not be a threat again.

Scandanavia is a total side show and should not be a distraction, it will be yours in good time. Likewise, Mali and Egypt will not be threats for a long time to come. You are in a great position to win but the longer that Spain and England stick around, the worse your chances get.

 

[Pangaea]

Well, smack me blue. Lady Luck has finally gone from a Mona Lisa-esque smile to a big fat in my direction. Just for the heck of it I loaded up my galley with an axemen and converted a warrior to another, almost emptying the bank, err mattress. I click for next turn, and suddenly notice she has moved a warrior out of London. Bad move! I declare war, and send the men onto the sea...

Spoiler :

The second axeman barely survived, but it was just enough to take London and bury the English into the ground.

Thus, 1080 BC, I have 6 cities, and have killed off France, Rome, Greece and England. Watch out Isabella. My axemen and maybe even catapults will be dining in Madrid soon

Any advice on research? What is sensible to go for at this stage, given that I'd like to teach the Russians German too - if I can? It's the third screenshot above. Not sure what Russia have, but when my scout was there (before trekking up to Sweden) he only saw warriors and archers.

 

[revengeofmakno]

Currency is something you will need to stabilize your economy no matter what strategy you use after Spain is taken out. London is not a great production city but with a market and later a harbour it can generate money, research and great people. Rome can also do that. At least one city like that is essential, two is even better.

Alphabet is also needed for tech trading. At some point you will likely want to use tech trading to back fill the low end techs that you have avoided.