Do you support affirmative action as it exists in America today? Why or why not? Do you support a revision of it from the way it currently is? Why or why not? Are blacks and other minorities inherently so disadvantaged that they need to recieve special consideration and benefits that would not be given to an otherwise equal white person?
Affirmative Action
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SeleucusNicator
Diadoch
Affirmative Action as it exists today in the United States is racism. Pure and simple racism.
I'm not a big fan of racism, to make an understatement.
I'm not a big fan of racism, to make an understatement.
KaNick
Deity
When the majority of people living in ghettos are minorities, something needs to be done. I don't think that affirmative action helps anyone that needs help. It is an out of date system and needs to be replaced.
bertuzzi's fist
Chieftain
Affirmative action just lowers the effectiveness of police departments and fire departments by choosing obviously less-qualified candidates based solely on their skin color. If my house is burning down, I don't care if it's the KKK saving me. I just want whoever's best qualified to save me, to save me.
Riesstiu IV
Deity
I agree that Affirmative Action isn't a sensible policy. A person should be qualified through skill and eduaction, not skin color.
SeleucusNicator
Diadoch
The reasons for that are nowdays largely self-inflicted and cultural. They no longer have anything to do with a cabal of wealthy white men keeping minorities down.
I agree with SeleucusNicator's statement that the problems minorities face are largely self-inflicted.
I also agree with his labeling of affirmative action as racism. It is racism in more than one way. It is racist to choose a black over a white do to skin color, and it is racist for us to think of blacks as so inferior that they need extra help. I will perhaps be labelled as a racist for the forthcoming statement, but as long as a majority of blacks ascribe themselves to the whole "getting over" ideal that they seem so transfixed on, they will not be able to succeed to the same degree as whites. I am aware that is a blanket statement, and I know it does not apply to ALL blacks, and I know that many whites are the same way. I'm just saying that the inherent mentality of many blacks gives them a worse disadvantage then any white person ever could.
I also agree with his labeling of affirmative action as racism. It is racism in more than one way. It is racist to choose a black over a white do to skin color, and it is racist for us to think of blacks as so inferior that they need extra help. I will perhaps be labelled as a racist for the forthcoming statement, but as long as a majority of blacks ascribe themselves to the whole "getting over" ideal that they seem so transfixed on, they will not be able to succeed to the same degree as whites. I am aware that is a blanket statement, and I know it does not apply to ALL blacks, and I know that many whites are the same way. I'm just saying that the inherent mentality of many blacks gives them a worse disadvantage then any white person ever could.
KaNick
Deity
Maybe. But maybe the culture reflects the oppresion.
bertuzzi's fist
Chieftain
Blaming the minorities for their poverty is stupid. Poverty is structural, not cultural. Allowing the minorities to toil in the ghettos undermines the American-rooted ideologies of true capitalism and democracy. Equal opportunity should be an inherent right in such a system. Since it's a structural problem, it's not gonna be solved by makeshift bad solutions like affirmative action, or charity food drives.
SeleucusNicator
Diadoch
Hrm? Are you actually arguing that blacks are inherently inferior?
Shadylookin
master debater
I believe it's wrong, it's nothing more than state sponsored racism.
BloodyPepperoni
King
Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 40 involving anything else. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Whites is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face
KaNick
Deity
Quite the opposite. He was the one that said that, and so he lost all credibility. Unless I misunderstood him of course. Edit: I did misunderstand him.
Achinz
Hermit of Huangshan
That's always easy to say when you're not in the deprived class.
I remember an interesting experiment in the form of a racially mixed seminar where the privileged whites were humiliated verbally for being white-skinned, blue-eyed or light-haired ie a similulated environment where colour discrimination was reversed.
IIRC about a third of the white participants dropped out because they just could not stand the humiliation and those that remained and completed the course, remarked on the insight it gave to the problems on the other side, something they would not have realised living their own comfortable unhassled lives.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
First of all-
What? That makes no sense. I would have said the same thing If he hadn't already said it.
Affirmative Action should be need-based. Pure and simple. There are rich black people, you know. Also, it should only be for college and school application. In jobs, it is likely that your education and past experience will be the determining factor, and when you have affirmative action for education, you should need no further help.
It is racism, and I can't really see how you could possibly argue that(you could argue it, but it wouldn't be logical at all). I have a single parent, and I could use some extra help, but I'm Asian, so I don't really count for Affirmative Action. Fair? No. I also know a black kid in school who lives in a really, really big house. Should he get help? No.
It all seems relatively simple to me.
What? That makes no sense. I would have said the same thing If he hadn't already said it.
Affirmative Action should be need-based. Pure and simple. There are rich black people, you know. Also, it should only be for college and school application. In jobs, it is likely that your education and past experience will be the determining factor, and when you have affirmative action for education, you should need no further help.
It is racism, and I can't really see how you could possibly argue that(you could argue it, but it wouldn't be logical at all). I have a single parent, and I could use some extra help, but I'm Asian, so I don't really count for Affirmative Action. Fair? No. I also know a black kid in school who lives in a really, really big house. Should he get help? No.
It all seems relatively simple to me.
SeleucusNicator
Diadoch
No. He said it was racist to consider blacks inherently inferior. That is a statement I'm sure even racists would agree with.
KaNick
Deity
Syterion are you reading this thread in a parrallel dimension or something? I agree with everything you said. The reason I said that student lost all credibility is because (Edit: I thought) he implied that black people are inferior.
KaNick
Deity
Affirmative Action was made to make up for racism against black people, not because lawmakers thought that black people were inferior.
Syterion
Voodoo Economist
Asians (particularly Chinese) had a lot of racism directed toward them as well in the history of the U.S. Yet nowadays it is a disadvantage to be Asian when applying for college because there are so many Asians at college. You can't possibly say that the racism in the past still affects them today.
I think there may have been a misunderstanding, I apologize if I wasn't clear in my intent. I meant that it is racist for us to consider blacks as inherently inferior, and affirmative action basically says that. As Syterion said, affirmative action should be need based. A black rich person should recieve less help than a poor white person, all other things being equal. Affirmative action seems to think that blacks are inferior, because it gives them extra benefits solely according to their race, as if to say "well, you aren't very qualified, but since you are black you can't be expected to be very qualified, so we'll hire you anyways". I think we are basically on the same page GrandMasta Nick, but there was just a misunderstanding.
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