Affirmative Action

[BloodyPepperoni]

You're actually denying that giving these people a good education right form the start and making them feel like they have a shot at success wouldn't work? Just because it's not currently done? What in the world kind of reasoning is that? With your reasoning, AA should have never begun, because in 1964, the year it started, it hadn't been done and instead blacks and others were excluded from all that was good in the world.

I denied that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you support forcing certain employers and public educational institutions to accept certain amounts of black people (and other groups). That is racial discrimination. Not necessarily a bad thing (it at least has good intention), but racial discrimination nonetheless. You can't argue otherwise (unless you have a different definition of racial discrimination).

The problem is that you use the same word (discrimination) to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action's goal is to put an end to prejudicial treatment using inclusion technique.

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

I said that IF you support giving handouts to people based on their skin colour you are a racist, and I'll say it again

Using your logic, black people supporting AA (majority of them) are racist toward themselves?

 

[Archer 007]

The goal of AA is to give handouts to minorities. That is sick. I think that if they apply themselves, a black or Hispanic or etc., can be just as intellgent as I am.

 

[Archer 007]

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
Using your logic, black people supporting AA (majority of them) are racist toward themselves?

Yes, just like poor people supporting tax cuts with deny them services.

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
Using your logic, black people supporting AA (majority of them) are racist toward themselves?

Actually more and more blacks are against it, even in 'liberal' areas. AA is racist, since it promotes blacks at the expense of whites and sometimes even others. If you support it, you like the Klan, support a racist idea.

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

Originally posted by student
First, I wish you'd address the hypothetical situation in post 49, I think that makes a good point and I'd like to hear your response as to how a "non-colorblind" policy is more conductive to racial equality.

Secondly, to address your first paragraph, what rule is it that says that all poor people are minorities? There ARE poor white people, and there ARE rich black people. Why can't help be given on the basis of socio-economic status as opposed to the color of their skin.

-Do you regonize that Black schools are, in general, poorer? If yes, it's simple : Poor schools=bad education=bad marks=less chances in college. But again, if government starts funding black schools a little bit more, I bet you are going to say it's racism again.

According to affirmative action a white poor kid should not get admitted to college over a black rich kid, even if his credentials are higher. However, a black poor kid SHOULD get admitted over a white rich kid, again even if the white kid's credentials are higher. How is that not racist!?

-I will repeat one of my previous posts :

In fact, without affirmative action the percentage of Black students at many selective schools would drop to only 2% of the student body. This would effectively choke off Black access to top universities and severely restrict progress toward racial equality
So you would feel better is AA was to be removed, given the fact that the situation of Blacks, being less educated and wealthy in general than Whites, would get even worse?

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

Originally posted by Zarn
. If you support it, you like the Klan, support a racist idea.

Yes, I firmly believe that Blacks are inferiors . To me, a Black is worth 1/100 of a White. But eh, did I forget to mention that my father is black?

You are a really cool guy (censored myself) to tell me that I'm like the Klan. I wish you meet these disgusting people once in your life and see who they are.

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
Yes, I firmly believe that Blacks are inferiors . To me, a Black is worth 1/100 of a White. But eh, did I forget to mention that my father is black?

You are a really cool guy (censored myself) to tell me that I'm like the Klan. I wish you meet these disgusting people once in your life and see who they are.

I have and they are responsible for death in my family. You should learn more about the U.S. culture before making those kind of statements.

I know you are part black, but frankly I don't care. You are still acting like a racist. It is possible to be racist against your own color. I was saying AA is racist against whites. I never said it was racist against blacks, though that point could be argued.

edit: I know you aren't trying to deprive whites, but your approval of AA means whites would be at a major disadvantage.

 

[bobgote]

Originally posted by WillJ
6. Attack the root of the problem, not the leaves. All-black schools are on average much worse than all-white schools. The higher the minority population (not counting Asians) in a school, for the most part the worse the school. This is what needs to be changed. Letting these people graduate from these run-down schools and then making colleges accept them and employers hire them is just ********.

This is really all you need to see. with this post you can see the sheer stupidity of the policy. failure requires further work, not rewarding. if you want a good life, you have to work for it.

Originally posted by addiv
If AA would not exist, many perfectly qualified non-whites would still be discriminated against when applying for a job. In fact, racism is still very present in modern society. Something needs to be done against that, and it seems to me that the only practical way to do so is by AA. Besides, whites should stop acting so injured, they have discriminated against non-whites more than enough in the past, so it might actually be instructive for them to be the ones who are discriminated for a while.

the past needs to be learned from, not repeated in mirror image. The longer the AA policy is held, the longer racism will exist. The policy is perpetuating a circle of inequality and hatred. AA is not practical. It is not moral. it is simply a hastily cobbled together "solution" to a problem that will still exist. Worse, it is keeping the problem and through its policy of accepting weakness, it is causing deterioration in society.

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
I'm not sure what gpa and SAT mean, since I don't live in the United States, but I will assume it means that student A has better marks that student B.
A is white and B is black, ok. Does it means that B will be automatically selected over A? You may get a certain advantage if you are part of a minority, but you are also advantaged if you come from a poor family, if you pratice certains sports, if you come from an underrepresented State or county and also if you are from the same state as the college. Admissions are not entirely and solely based on skin color.

That is a fricken disaster.
WillJ is right on when he talks about tackling the problem at its roots. you don't give people special advantages or priviledges for every disadvantage they have. you remove the disadvantage. free education, or education subsidised for the poor is one way of going about this. Your way of doing things, like the present way, is wrong and discriminatory. the fact that you discriminate on all points rather than just race, isn't particularly reassuring.

The one problem that we should address here is poverty. other issues related to culture/attitude are the minority groups' own problems that they can sort out themselves. while AA exists, there is no need to sort out these problems.

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

I have and they are responsible for death in my family. You should learn more about the U.S. culture before making those kind of statements.

That's worse then.
Do you realize that you are comparing me with people that are responsible for death in your family?

I was saying AA is racist against whites. I never said it was racist against blacks, though that point could be argued.

The majority of posters here against AA argue that It's racist against Blacks. I just assumed you thought that too. It still does not justify to compare me with murderers.

 

[Zarn]

No, I just said you support something that the Klan would support, but in the opposite direction. I am comparing your ideas with theirs not your actions.

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

Originally posted by Zarn
No, I just said you support something that the Klan would support, but in the opposite direction.

According to the Klan, Blacks and Whites should be separed. According to AA, they should be integrated.

I hardly see how AA and Klan's goals could be compared

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
According to the Klan, Blacks and Whites should be separed. According to AA, they should be integrated.

I hardly see how AA and Klan's goals could be compared

It is the favoring of one race over another. To me that is very similar.

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

One race socio-economically disadvantaged in order to achieve equality.

 

[Zarn]

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
One race socio-economically disadvantaged in order to achieve equality.

The only blacks that benefit are the rich and middle class ones. AA does not help the socially disadvantaged, since AA reduced the number of poor students in Ivy League colleges.

 

[The Yankee]

What good is AA in its current state if many of the poorer blacks (and others, lets not leave them out) would never get the chance to have decent enough scores to use the AA to get into a good college?

That's why I say, if there's going to be one, tilt it towards the economically disadvantaged (so it can cover those not covered by current AA) and even then, only for something like education, not jobs.

 

[student]

@BloodyPeperoni Doesn't it make more sense that aa be according solely to socio-economic status then, and not race??? You state the main reason for aa being good is because blacks are socio-economically disadvantaged, yet you still think an underqualified rich black person should be admitted to a school over a poor white person who went to a crummy school, but got better grades.

I think that most here think people of low socioeconomic status should recieve an advantage, but BloodyPepperoni seems to take the (rather racist) view that blacks and other minorities are the only group that could be socioeconomically disadvantaged, and thus only they should get the benefits of aa.

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

Originally posted by student
@BloodyPeperoni Doesn't it make more sense that aa be according solely to socio-economic status then, and not race??? You state the main reason for aa being good is because blacks are socio-economically disadvantaged, yet you still think an underqualified rich black person should be admitted to a school over a poor white person who went to a crummy school, but got better grades.

I think that most here think people of low socioeconomic status should recieve an advantage, but BloodyPepperoni seems to take the (rather racist) view that blacks and other minorities are the only group that could be socioeconomically disadvantaged, and thus only they should get the benefits of aa.

WIll reply tommorow, I'm tired I got to wake up early tommorow morning

 

[BloodyPepperoni]

@BloodyPeperoni Doesn't it make more sense that aa be according solely to socio-economic status then, and not race??? You state the main reason for aa being good is because blacks are socio-economically disadvantaged, yet you still think an underqualified rich black person should be admitted to a school over a poor white person who went to a crummy school, but got better grades. I think that most here think people of low socioeconomic status should recieve an advantage, but BloodyPepperoni seems to take the (rather racist) view that blacks and other minorities are the only group that could be socioeconomically disadvantaged, and thus only they should get the benefits of aa.

Why don't you bother asking yourself how come Blacks, and Native Indians while we're at it, are in general way poorer than Whites?
US is officially not racist anymore since 1964. Before that date, Blacks could not legally get a good education. They were forced to attend to sh*tty schools. Therefore, a complete desegregation would have mean a massive, really massive reinvestment in education in order to offer equal opportunities to all citizens, regardless of the color of their skin. Given the fact that former 'black' schools are under-financed today, it would disadvantage black students to remove AA, unless the government starts to offer high-quality and free education for all ,which does not seem to be case now.

 

[luiz]

Originally posted by BloodyPepperoni
Using your logic, black people supporting AA (majority of them) are racist toward themselves?

They are racists, but not exactly against themselves.
They believe that they should have certain priviledges because of their skin colour, and that's racism.