1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

After being backstabbed...

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by b7fanatix, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2006
    Messages:
    7,606
    Location:
    Inside an Ikanda.
    I was playing on Chieftain, I was playing Kievan Rus on Accurate Europe. Catherine was my at the time only friend before the rest of Europe allied with me.

    Catherine was my friend, then I see Atilla, AND Catherine, ganging up on me (needless to say I took two of their cities each, including Catherine's Holy Capital)

    AND NO Warmonger Penalty that mattered (yaay!)
     
  2. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,033
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    One of the reasons people bad mouth RAs is because it is not uncommon to have a RA cancelled due to an AI DoWing. Some of those happened during DoF!

    If a DoW ends up being the end to my game, I will reload to the turn before to try and figure out how I missed the “tells.” If there is really not much that I could do differently, I will reload, sign all the defensive pacts I can, and start mobilizing my few units. I also sell everything I can for lump sum gold to the AI who is going to DoW me. That is not always an option, but it happened just this past week! Most times, even all that reloading is not enough to save the game...

    I have experienced it both ways. Sometimes an AI shows friendly, but only offers bad (3 gpt for a lux) or weak (209 for a lux instead of 240) deals. Sometimes an AI shows friendly, when the turn before they hated me, but for one or two turns I can get fair trades. That is very helpful when the deceptive AI has something I need for WLtKD.

    I think it may correlated to how closely the AI is to DoWing, or maybe this is peculiar only to some AI, but I am really not certain about the pattern.
     
  3. Scooter47

    Scooter47 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Yes I'm 100% positive on that. Casimir has backstabbed me various times ignoring the fact I have a DoF with him. Its happened on various difficulty levels Prince, King and even on Deity the one time I tried it just to see how tough it was.

    In my games Casimir mainly acts one of two ways. Either he acts all friendly offering DoF and trades luxuries and will then backstab at the first opportunity or he is a complete maniac who covets your land from the moment you meet him and will start wars against most civs.

    Now I admit that is strange considering the Ai Bias table. However Isabella by comparison has Deceptive (5) but in most of my games she is clearly as deceptive as Dido (7). Only last night did I actually have a peaceful game with Isabella as my neighbour, she signed DoF, traded fairly and for once didn't try to convert my cities. My diplomat reported her plotting against Korea for the whole game.

    My other neighbour Haile Selassie on the other hand was loyal and friendly. He converted one city but when I told him to stop he actually did. (Surprised me since the ai never usually listen) However he was plotting against me when I went for Freedom and he went Order. So was he actually being deceptive when he has a low deception bias (4), perhaps the diplomat plot uncovered message isn't always accurate, not sure.

    I am puzzled by this since the table doesn't seem totally accurate for many of my games so I assume the flavour bias can be heavily influenced by other things such as army size, amount of land, tech, land coveting, difficulty level etc. Either that or somehow the game is assigning random personalities when I don't have that option enabled.
     
  4. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,033
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    The civdata numbers are right of the xml, so they are accurate, but there are some traits that AFAIK have not been defined, and I am also pretty sure there is no documentation on how the numbers translate into expressed game behavior. My impression from playing is that the AI have a very narrow range of roles (stances) which are on not on a ten point scale. So comparing your experience with Isabella (5) and Dido (7), maybe there is huge in-game difference between (3) and (4)? That would let Isabella not be treacherous one-in-five games, but not Dido. This is all speculation on my part.
     
  5. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    836
    Please note that the AI Leader flavours are also given a random offset, up to +/-2.

    So Isabella might have anywhere from 3 to 7 on a flavour that is listed as 5 in the XML.

    As Beetle noted, they are NOT listed according to a 10 point scale. What's worse, is that Firaxis often uses arbitrary thresholds (i.e. is your flavor greater than 6? ok, do this. Is your flavor greater than 7? ok, do this).
     
  6. Scooter47

    Scooter47 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Well it may be speculation as you say but it does seem to fit what has happened in my games recently. For some reason the game sometimes doesn't randomize Civs very well and really I've had enough of Isabella recently. One-in-five probably sounds about right to be honest but when she's turned up in a string of games and always been treacherous its hard to get used to her acting another way. The strange thing is Dido is always treacherous in my games but I've read comments where people have said she was loyal and friendly for the whole game. Maybe the game varies it up every now and then.

    So if I understand this correctly the AI behaviour can be varied according to certain conditions and if said condition occurs then they may change sufficiently from their default behaviour. That would explain a lot of what I've seen happening.
     
  7. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    836
    Correct. Also, flavours (especially the "expansion" flavour) will change according to which "Grand Strategy" the AI is currently running. So at certain phases of the game the AI will also be more sensitive/insensitive to certain factors as well.

    Case in point: in the very early game when the AI is trying to expand to it's initial target of 4-6 cities, it's expansion flavour is significantly increased. This partially explains why some AIs you meet will covet your lands immediately the moment you give them an embassy, but will revert to friendly (and lose the negative "We covet your lands!" modifier) later on in the game - i.e. they are not always just deceptive (although being deceptive does account for a large amount of that behaviour).
     
  8. beetle

    beetle Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    6,033
    Location:
    Frederick, MD
    Yes, absolutely. See the Diplomacy section in this Kickstarter post:

    Maybe I have just gotten used to it, but the AIs seem less erratic in BNW than GnK. OTOH, Ideologies impose very strong “certain conditions”.
     
  9. Scooter47

    Scooter47 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    Thanks that makes complete sense to me because I've seen it happen. In a recent game Gandhi acted that way very early on and I saw the red "covet your lands". Its clear it happened that way because both myself and the Mongols blocked off his expansion very quickly so therefore screwing up his favoured strategy. He only had 2 cities and was backed up against the coast. In this particular case trading an embassy didn't change it but it did go away later when I liberated one of his cities. When dealing with someone like Caesar I usually spot the "Covet" notification and then it vanishes a few turns later because he goes into deceptive mode. If that guy is being friendly I can see the backstab/Dow coming. I feel better when he stays Neutral.

    That's a good article and I do remember when I first got CiV how completely psycho the Ai actually was back then. I took a long break from CiV and actually got BNW first and really enjoyed it which then prompted me to pay for the Gold upgrade to get GnK and the other civs.

    Although he does mention in the article that while he tried to make them more predictable they are still somewhat psycho under the hood. :D I personally find some more crazy than others but I've gradually got used to their various ways. What always puzzled me was the way its behaviour would sometimes radically change for no apparent reason but what I didn't take into account was its scripting variation.
     
  10. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    836
    Trading your own embassy is the worst thing you can do for yourself against an AI.

    The AI will not "covet your lands" if it cannot see where your city/land is, which the embassy provides. Much better to just cough up the 1GPT for only his embassy. The diplomatic boost is like +3 modifier (note: a DoF/Denounce is worth around -30/+30 respectively).
     
  11. Scooter47

    Scooter47 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2015
    Messages:
    18
    Location:
    UK
    As a rule I usually don't ever give them an embassy. I guess in that particular game I just felt he was no longer a threat to me.
     
  12. A.J.K.

    A.J.K. Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2014
    Messages:
    92


    Update: it took longer than I expected, but I finally took Copenhagen. My Longbowmen were only doing about 10 damage per hit so I was only making incremental progress. Finally they both got logistics so that helped. I think I only lost one crossbowmen (finger spasm sent him into the water, oops), one trebuchet, and a spearman, all of which were gifted to me by Sidon anyway.

    I ended up paying Monty to attack Harald from the other side because he kept churning out units and I needed something to keep him busy... Monty ended up taking his 2nd largest city right before I took Copenhagen, and he then took out the tiny city Harald churned out in the middle of our war. Buh-bye Harald. I kind of wish I wasn't so close to Monty now, but since I'm into cannons and riflemen now and not too far off from artillery I think I should be able to fight him off should he get any ideas.

    On a side note... I finally started exploring the sea and found an island to the east with a Natural Wonder on one side and 2 city states on the other... plenty of room for a city, so I now have 5 self-founded cities, 3 of which have natural wonders within their borders, and 1 puppeted capital. I've never had more than one natural wonder in a game before - pretty cool.
     
  13. LordBalkoth

    LordBalkoth Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Messages:
    525
    Wow, did you all piss in the AI's cereal or something? :p Or maybe this is something that mainly happens on lower difficulties? Just never seen it on Emperor or higher (mainly play Immortal/Deity). Hard to claim you're all lying in this case...just...weird.

    That's not indicative of a friendly state. A friendly state is 7 gpt for a lux or 2 gpt for a strategic (if they care about the strategic at all -- a less friendly state is 3 gpt for 2 strategic or even less friendly is 1 gpt for 1 strategic). An AI will 1 for 1 lux trade

    No, that's not the case either. For example, I caused a World Congress resolution to fail that a friend proposed. I knew I could suffer the hit since I had a ton of good diplomatic modifiers at that point. I was still informed that the AI was plotting against me and I had the negative modifier show up (aka, not Deceptive).

    Keep in mind there's a difference between disliking you and planning on go to war with you (especially if another Civ (who doesn't like you) asked that AI to go to war against you). A Civ might be fine with you and then decide that it make senses to take your stuff because they think you're weak. Not because you've actually done anything to bother them.

    On higher difficulties the other AIs will almost certainly have scouted your lands early on so it's a moot point. They'll covet your lands (or not) regardless of the embassy.
     
  14. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2001
    Messages:
    3,642
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Deep inside...
    Nope. AI will only trade 1x1 lux if in Friendly or Neutral, or pretended Friendly.

    Nope. AI does not hide ALL neg modifiers when in Deceptive, only some (usually, if not all the time, the "big red" ones, the heavier ones). Plotting = Deceptive, it's in the code in the dll.
     
  15. LordBalkoth

    LordBalkoth Prince

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2014
    Messages:
    525
    When did I say otherwise? My entire point was that a 1 for 1 lux trade was not a sign they loved you -- like you said, it is completely functional on neutral.

    Interesting.
     
  16. ThorHammerz

    ThorHammerz zzz

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    836
    Perhaps I should have implied a larger-than-standard-sized and/or a not-pangea-map (y'know, not the ones where you can literally map out the entire continent with just a few scouts in a couple dozen turns? :rolleyes:)
     
  17. DarkestOnion

    DarkestOnion Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2014
    Messages:
    533
    After I have finally been back-stabbed, I move my units to wipe out the AI...and I look at my Warmonger Penalty and dare anyone else to get froggy :devil:
     

Share This Page