Agnostic/Intolerant

[Valkrionn]

Laroth, I believe.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you got ninja'ed

 

[ExMachina]

Well, it's not about preventing them. Just suppressing them. Ban a religion, heavy punishments for any followers caught, etc.

It may not completely destroy a religion, but there'll be a lot less followers of Junil when Auric starts beheading order followers in his cities.

Yes, but no matter how many people you behead, some people will still convert. If Auric wanted to completely suppress all religious belief, he would have to devote resources specifically towards that (i.e. use Inquisitor units).

I don't really care if the trait is called Agnostic or Intolerant, but either way all civilizations should have a chance for religions to spread to their lands. The chance might be reduced, but IMO there should still be some chance.

another point: AGNOSTIC civs should NOT be able to use inquisition ( Cassiel would never do a thing like that ) , while intolerant civs should be able to use it.

The Grigori are probably the only actually agnostic civ in the game; the Illians and Scions have the Agnostic trait, but that just represents how they follow their own religion instead of following the traditional gods. I don't understand why the Khadi have Intolerant instead, I don't see why they would be any more intolerant than the Illians or Scions.

As for Grigori inquisitors, I would just see them as being Richard Dawkins-wannabes running around de-converting people. They don't necessarily have to be witch-hunting stake-burning inquisitors.

 

[WarKirby]

Neither would Perpentach, and he's insane. That's saying something right there.

Did you just say perpentach wouldn't do something at random ?

 

[Methuselah]

The Grigori are probably the only actually agnostic civ in the game; the Illians and Scions have the Agnostic trait, but that just represents how they follow their own religion instead of following the traditional gods. I don't understand why the Khadi have Intolerant instead, I don't see why they would be any more intolerant than the Illians or Scions.

I agree - the intolerant trait makes little sense.

Consider this - the agnostic trait already prevents you researching religion techs (or at least does in FFH.) It's my understanding that you can't get a disciple from a lair unless that religion has been founded in FF, so that rules out that too. The only thing Intolerant does that Agnostic doesn't is prevent a religion from spreading entirely to your city - may as well merge that into Agnostic and delete intolerant.

 

[WarKirby]

As for Grigori inquisitors, I would just see them as being Richard Dawkins-wannabes running around de-converting people. They don't necessarily have to be witch-hunting stake-burning inquisitors.

I think you missed the point.

Whether or not he worshops a god is irrelevant here. It's being said he wouldn't do that because he's a nice, tolerant guy.

 

[WarKirby]

Consider this - the agnostic trait already prevents you researching religion techs (or at least does in FFH.)

I didn't know this. That's a bad thing. Honor allows defensive pacts, as well as founding empyrean. And isn't it a prereq for trade in FFH ?

may as well merge that into Agnostic and delete intolerant

I disagree. I think they are good as seperate traits.

Agnostic should:

• Reduce natural spread rate of religions in your territory
• Prevent you from founding religions (but not from researching the tech)
• Prevent you adopting a state religion

Intolerant should:

• Severely reduce, or eliminate, natural spread of religions in your territory.
• Allow an inquisitor unit to purge religions
• Completely prevent manual spreading, ie with savants, acolytes, etc. Disciple units would be arrested on sight by your guards.
• Prevent you from founding religions (but not from researching the tech)
• Prevent you adopting a state religion
• Move the holy city of a religion elsewhere when you capture it. And raze the holy building, possibly allowing it to be rebuilt.

The question remains, then. Should either of these traits allow the creation of religious units, that don't normally require you to have the state religion. for example, nightwatch.

I'm thinking, Agnostic should, and intolerant should not.

 

[Methuselah]

I disagree. I think they are good as seperate traits.

*snip*

I like this suggestion too. Either remove intolerant, or rework it so it and agnostic aren't basically the same thing.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The Luonnotar are very much religious, but they believe that only The One is worthy of worship and that other "gods" are but petulant children. I don't however think that they would resort to the type of persecution as other inquisitors. For one thing, Cassiel would not allow it. While he too believes in the One he does not believe the One wants worship, so he finds the Luonnotar annoying. He however would give refuge to any religious refugees, so long as they do not try to persecute others based on their beliefs.


I tend to think that the trait should be called either Dystheistic or Misotheistic. All of the agnostic/intolerant leaders do dislike the (other) gods.

 

[Seon]

And also, I don't think Cassiel is the "official leader" of Grigori. From what I gather, he is just a philosopher/angel who is very charismathic and has many followers, so instead of ruling over the people, he just asks them and rallies them with speeches. (I might be completely wrong oh dear...)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

No, you are pretty much right.

In addition to that, Cassiel is basically the author of the Grigori Constitution. I imagine position is a lot like what Benjamin Franlkim might have had he lived (and had perfect health, despite a drinking problem) for a few more centuries. He set of the system so that it could go on without him, and probably also so that he has enough checks on his power that he couldn't become a despot if he ever went mad in the future. The Grigori have a very weak central government, so that may not exactly have a real leader. We don't know a whole lot about their government, but we know it if a form of feudalism rather modern democratic republic. That is because Cassiel doesn't trust career politicians, or city folk in general. He would rather everyone be yeoman farmers. We do know that the feudal offices are not hereditary, and are unpaid positions. I believe they are lifetime appointments, but there is probably a procedure to remove unpopular "nobles". I'm thinking that their government does not have the authority to tax or draft its citizens (except possibly during temporary crises), so it is very dependent on volunteers on private donations. Cassiel may have been the archangel of Force, but he doesn't really like to force anyone to do anything. He may have founded the Ordine Medicos, but he would never tolerate a government system of universal health care/socialized medicine. His is a Libertarian Paradise...with very little chance to survive the horrors of Erebus where Fascism might better protect the people.


For the most part Neutral leaders in FfH are defined by their pragmatism, but that is not a quality Cassiel possesses.

Cassiel would definitely be a Ron Paul supporter.

 

[DavidB1111]

Yep, in a way, Cassiel is a good guy/angel thing. He knows how things are. He also knows that trying to stop everyone from worshiping a god is silly. Also, he really shouldn't be able to use that particular wonder. I don't know...

Also, I'm glad someone got the Perpentach joke I made.
Yes, he's insane, and he does things at random, but yeah, even he wouldn't use Purge the Unfaithful.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I guess religious founding techs should ONLY give stuff related to a religion, this should make things easier. so for example, defensive pacts should be available either with a new tech, or with another tech that's not tied to Empy.

 

[Iceciro]

I think I may try an experiment of moving Defensive Pact to Way of the Wise. And deleting the Trojan Horse (which I never liked anyways!)

Then Intolerant could lock off all the religions, and I could give that to the leaders who aren't Cassiel. As I've said, I think my main problem with "Agnostic" is that it's just plain the wrong word, even for Cassie!

Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove.

Cassiel knows the gods are out there, he just doesn't care because he thinks they're acting like squabbling children and don't deserve any worship. I also suggest calling his trait "Misotheist" because he doesn't just believe, he KNOWS there are Gods, he just thinks that they suck and should not be worshiped. Cassiel's kinda alone in this viewpoint in Erebus, at least for a leader.

Misotheism is the "hatred of God" or "hatred of the gods" (from the Greek adjective μισόθεος "hating the gods", a compound of μίσος "hatred" and θεός "god"). In some varieties of polytheism, it was considered possible to inflict punishment on gods by ceasing to worship them.

I don't know which leaders are "Intolerant" or have just have their own religion. The lazy could probably assign Intolerant to Evil leaders since Good leaders are less likely to go around axing people for it. But anyone in Erebus can do an alignment swap, so that's still bad. The only person I'd think I could say with no compunctions is Intolerant would be Auric.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

@Iceciro: Despite of what the dictionary says, in modern Greek, the world agnostic, means the one that refuses to accept the God's worship. This does not mean the dictionary definition is wrong. Indeed the root of the word is this, but the meaning has expanded through the years. It is unlkely that you will find a single Greek, educated or not, that will use the word with its original meaning.

As for misotheos, I do not think Cassiel "hates" anyone. He simply dispises the petty games of the Gods, which use life on the world in order to achieve more power for themselves.

There is another word: "Άθρησκος"(athriskos), he who refuses to accept a religion. Which has a dinstict difference from "Άθεος"(atheist), in that someone who is "athriskos", may believe in God, but does not accept that there is a religion that preaches the truth about Him. On the other hand, an atheist, is one that believes that God does not exist, something that would never fit in FFH.

Since there is no noon derived from "Athriskos" that is in use in modern Greek, I believe that Agnostic, is the closest match for Cassiel.

I agree, however, the Intolerant should be given to the Emperor and Auric.

 

[Iceciro]

I appreciate the education, Thunder! Old dogs can learn new tricks, I suppose. Cassie can keep Agnostic then.

I'm still trying to decide on which civs fall where on the Agnostic<->Intolerant scale.

 

[DavidB1111]

Hmm, I didn't know that either. To me, that seems more in line with Atheism, to refuse to accept the God's worship part.

I always though Agnostic was in a way just saying you're completely neutral on that particular subject. Maybe the Gods exist, and maybe they don't.

Bottom line, Cassiel really wouldn't hate people who worship the Gods.

 

[Iceciro]

Irregardless, Intolerant in FF just doesn't work Without any tweaks, you can found, research, spread and have spread religion in your areas.

The best I've been able to do is have it copy Agnostic, but not every civ has Lunnotar inquisitiors so sometimes you end up with religions you can't get rid of. >_<

 

[xienwolf]

You mean Intolerant doesn't do what you think it should, or that Intolerant doesn't do what it claims it ought to?

The trait was designed to have 3 functions: Religions do not naturally spread in your lands. Holy Cities will not found themselves in your lands (but I am not sure we ever wrote the code required for this. It is very NOT trivial). You cannot adopt a state religion.


The trait was NOT designed to: Prevent researching religions (was specifically designed to allow you to still do so, and even says so in the mouseover help text), prevent spreading religions with Disciples (your own or someone with open borders with you).

 

[Iceciro]

*Holds up peace sign* Not trying to offend you Xien, nor call into question the quality of your work.

In past games I have been able to found a religion and have other religions passively spread into my territory as an Intolerant leader.

To ensure my mods weren't breaking anything, I started up a new duel game. To ensure it wasn't broken by simply adding it through WB I just gave the capital a ton of Great Sages and researched my way to Orders from Heaven.

I am unable to take a State Religion, so that does work.

I'll try to get a passive religion spread test up here in a bit, though I've seen it happen in the past, I want to make sure that hasn't been fixed. (It may have been in a recent, but previous, patch.)

EDIT: changed where the picture was hosted so it was actually visible >_>