AG's Ideology Mod

[Drakle]

I don't really like those reworks.

Thousand Little Things (1000 Kleine Dinge) was the name of a 1958 East German policy to create a consumer culture and manufacture consumer goods in the DDR. I like this better than Great Leap Forward as a policy, because the Great Leap Forward was a disastrous bloodbath. My idea is that Corporatism would give you more copies of resources you already control while order just gives you a little bit of everything.

Civ uses lots of disasterous ideas as names for tenats. If Civ handled things realistically or historically, it would have Order and Autocracy impose severe maluses instead of bonuses.

 

[pineappledan]

Also, re: corporatocracy’s UU, I don’t like my PMC unit idea anymore. It’s too similar to both the mercenary and Order’s guerilla. Right now we have 2 air units and 1 land unit, so why not a boat?

Flower Class
From JFD’s Canada mod
+1 movement if starting turn stacked with a trade unit.
+25% vs submarines

functionally a super-destroyer, focused on defending your trade units from commerce raiders.

proposal for tier 2 corporatocracy policy
Military Industrial Complex
Can build Flower Class. +20XP for purchased military units.

Civ uses lots of disasterous ideas as names for tenats. If Civ handled things realistically or historically, it would have Order and Autocracy impose severe maluses instead of bonuses.

Regardless of your views on the end of history and the final triumph of neoliberalism, neither the current VP Great Leap Forward or AG’s proposal are even close to reflecting the IRL Great Leap Forward, either it’s intentions, results, or the policies enacted. Regardless, I would put the Great Leap Forward on the same level as making an Autocracy policy that was called “The Final Solution”, or a Freedom policy called “Bengal Famine”. It’s just... death as a policy. It’s too much, the current Levensraum tenet notwithstanding.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Freedom seems a little too geared towards economic victory, with stuff like Economic Union, Church Tax Exemption, etc.

You've taken out all the Tourism from Order, but I don't see any legitimate focus on an economic victory. Changing order to that victory is a heavy lift, because Order had the least amount of gold generation between all 3 of the original ideologies. Great Leap Forward, or at least that lvl 3 slot, should be your economic victory closer, but It's not focused on any victory, and it's not very strong either. I don't see how anything in the Order kit presented here would allow them to control monopolies or amass gold any better tham, say Freedom.

Freedom might be able to amass the Gold fairly easily but achieving the monopoly requirements while going tall is going to be very tough. Let's say you can get 3 monopolies from settling the land around your capital and you get two of the three CS resource monopolies (Glass, Porcelain and/ Jewelry). You have a total of 5 monopolies and achieving another 5 monopolies is going to be tough since there's nothing in the kit to help them with that.

Of the two you have chosen as economic victory ideologies, I think you have made the right choice, but I think more needs to be done to alter Order to fit that role. Corporatism can focus on centralized wealth generation and plutocracy (on-empire/capital gold yields), while order can mainly focus on maintenance and cost reductions with some worker and per-city bonuses. Order is also the overtly militaristic Economic victory ideology, so it can control the map through regular conquest, but there needs to be an explicit bonus that converts military gains into economic gains, or you will have failed to communicate that victory condition's focus to the player.

My goal was to make Order a militaristic Economic victory ideology while Corporatism a peaceful Economic victory ideology. I don't feel there's a need for an explicit bonus since Order has its tools already. The biggest one is the free Courthouse in captured cities which is very powerful in getting more yields immediately. I feel the biggest contrast between Order and Autocracy is that, in a scenario where you might have a runaway on another continent and you cannot conquer fast enough to stop that civ, Order will let you transition quickly into Economic Victory as it's faster to achieve. I feel Order is already pretty strong and anymore buffs are kinda unnecessary.

Church tax exemption seems unerpowered to me. a religious civ that used both its followers for religious buildings can manage to get 4 religious buildings in all cities and 5 in the capital. That's still only 128 per city. I would make it 2/2/2 or something; it's just not enough boost for a lvl 2 in comparison to something like party leadership.

I intend to change this when I retune the Theocracy ideology. I feel that I have more room to make the Ideologies more unique now and have a few ideas that could change things up a bit.

You took out 5-year plan and Urbanization, but left military industrial complex, so Autocracy is the only guy with a UTI boost, and it was already the strongest one

+100 for a unit gift is way too much. You can buy a unit cheaper than a diplomat with a 1 turn cooldown, and gift it for about the same amount of influence. This is way too abuseable, even with the supply cap limiter on gifts. I wouldn't go past +50

You might be right on that. I will likely lower that value in the next update.

Just speaking of names:

• I would have replaced urbanization with Green Revolution or something anyways.
• you can replace 5-year plan, but keep the name and use it somewhere else. That's the single most Communism thing ever, and is too good to give up.
• Military-Industrial Complex sounds to me like a Corporatist tenet. You need to change MIC to something else anyways if you're removing all the UTIs

I'm pretty bad with names so I'll definitely take these into consideration.

Some ideas to get Order more economical:

(Old) People's Army
+10% Production towards military units
Public Schools produce +2 Happiness and +5 Culture.

(New) People's Army
Can construct Commissariats

Spoiler Commissariat :

art by Janboruta

requires People's Army and Industrialization Tech
1000
no maintenance
10//
2 Happiness and -5% from all Needs and Empire modifiers in this City
10XP and 10%Production towards military units in this City

The idea would be that Order has lots of bonuses to and building construction, so why not give them an extra building to construct? You have to make it very powerful to offset the delay and late game. The Commissariat's happiness bonuses functionally makes it a public works project, but with 1 extra happiness and a bunch of other bonuses.

I'm hesitant to make Order more powerful and this seems to do that. Tons of yields, Happiness, more XP and Production boost towards military units seems a bit too much. I seem to recall a lot of people claiming that Order is very strong right now. To be honest, I'm worried that Freedom is the weakest of the three reworks. I really need to play games to find out. xD

Great Leap Forward (Old)
+100% Production towards Police Station. Police Station gain +5 Science. Receive one free technology.

Thousand Little Things (New)
1 copy of all Luxury Resources on the map. +2Gold for all Luxury and Bonus Resources on Empire.

Thousand Little Things (1000 Kleine Dinge) was the name of a 1958 East German policy to create a consumer culture and manufacture consumer goods in the DDR. I like this better than Great Leap Forward as a policy, because the Great Leap Forward was a disastrous bloodbath. My idea is that Corporatism would give you more copies of resources you already control while order just gives you a little bit of everything.
This also feeds into Order's isolation/de-emphasis on international trade, because giving you 1 copy of every resource on the map functionally removes your need to trade with anyone. It also gives you a potentially massive happiness spike on empire, in contrast with my Corporatocracy de-emphasis on happiness.

I think this is definitely overtuning. Order can already acquire lots of Luxuries through conquest. This tenet will make Economic Victory a bit too quickly. I actually don't mind if this was available to Corporatism instead.

I don't really like those reworks.

Civ uses lots of disasterous ideas as names for tenats. If Civ handled things realistically or historically, it would have Order and Autocracy impose severe maluses instead of bonuses.

I do realize that I cannot make everyone happy. I'm sad you don't like these but I personally like the changes.

Since this is a game, it's very difficult to make things realistic or historical. Sometimes, it's better to be more lax with naming conventions so more time can be focused on the actual mechanics.

Also, re: corporatocracy’s UU, I don’t like my PMC unit idea anymore. It’s too similar to both the mercenary and Order’s guerilla. Right now we have 2 air units and 1 land unit, so why not a boat?
View attachment 552002
Flower Class
From JFD’s Canada mod
+1 movement if starting turn stacked with a trade unit.
+25% vs submarines

functionally a super-destroyer, focused on defending your trade units from commerce raiders.

proposal for tier 2 corporatocracy policy
Military Industrial Complex
Can build Flower Class. +20XP for purchased military units.

I don't mind the idea of using a naval unit. However, I don't see Corporatism as a heavy trade unit focused ideology unlike Freedom. We'll see what will happen once I get a draft of Corporatism out first.

 

[Drakle]

Regardless of your views on the end of history and the final triumph of neoliberalism, neither the current VP Great Leap Forward or AG’s proposal are even close to reflecting the IRL Great Leap Forward, either it’s intentions, results, or the policies enacted. Regardless, I would put the Great Leap Forward on the same level as making an Autocracy policy that was called “The Final Solution”, or a Freedom policy called “Bengal Famine”. It’s just... death as a policy. It’s too much, the current Levensraum tenet notwithstanding.

Cultural revolution? Giving tourism and bonuses to great works, instead of destroying culture. Third way, which is just describing fascism's nonsense economic policy. Five Year Plan? Tyranny? Iron Fist? Iron Curtain? Police State? Cult of Personality? None of those are positives.

Other tenets are just vague slogans, often used to justify other bad stuff. Peace, Land, Bread was just a revolutionary slogan, but they didn't deliver on any of those promises for years, and it still wasn't a great follow through.

(also why is Syndicalism an Autocracy trait. I'm sure there is a far better way to describe their hijacking of organised labour, then that).

And there is Bengal Famine in the social policies. Imperialism's Colonialism, Exploitation and Civilising mission. I mean the base game at least kept those out, though it still has lots of other bad stuff as positives, like Treasure fleets (I wonder what that refers to), Mercantilism and Protectionism (both bad economic theory and major justification and cause for imperial projects), theocracy, etc alongside all the aforementioned ideological tenets.

VP just takes Civ5 baseline of bad things get bonuses, to an extreme in terms of naming.


Also, the Green Revolution is a tech thing, not an ideological tenet. I mean so would Urbanisation, so maybe suburbanisation would be the Freedom one and give freedom a negative name (inefficient sprawling low density) with a positive bonus like the other ideologies.

 

[pineappledan]

I don't mind the idea of using a naval unit. However, I don't see Corporatism as a heavy trade unit focused ideology unlike Freedom. We'll see what will happen once I get a draft of Corporatism out first

Freedom has a trade/international focus, but isn’t geared for economic. Order is geared for isolationism, but IS economic victory-focused. Having 2 economic ideologies, but neither of them boosting TRs would be awkward. Also, if there is a corporations focus for corporatism, but NOT a TR focus, how is corporatism planting franchises?

I think this is definitely overtuning. Order can already acquire lots of Luxuries through conquest. This tenet will make Economic Victory a bit too quickly. I actually don't mind if this was available to Corporatism instead

You would have to build it. Consider how powerful an observatory is.

I'm hesitant to make Order more powerful [by adding monopoly bonuses] and this seems to do that.

but then how is order any better at economic victory than autocracy?

freedom has more gold generation, but isn’t “economic”, autocracy has more map conquest, but isn’t “economic”. So how is order an EV ideology if it does both of these things worse, and doesn’t have anything that either bridges the two, or contributes to monopolies more directly.

I figured one copy of everything on the map could contrast with a corporatism bonus that gave double luxury quantity of everything you already have. Order’s would contribute only slightly to the % control needed for an EV, but that amount of resource diversity would help a lot with managing happiness for conquests.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Freedom has a trade/international focus, but isn’t geared for economic. Order is geared for isolationism, but IS economic victory-focused. Having 2 economic ideologies, but neither of them boosting TRs would be awkward. Also, if there is a corporations focus for corporatism, but NOT a TR focus, how is corporatism planting franchises?

but then how is order any better at economic victory than autocracy?

freedom has more gold generation, but isn’t “economic”, autocracy has more map conquest, but isn’t “economic”. So how is order an EV ideology if it does both of these things worse, and doesn’t have anything that either bridges the two, or contributes to monopolies more directly.

Maybe I should switch the two then. Order should be Religious Victory focused while Freedom is Economic Victory focused? If that's the case, then, with some changes, we have:

Spoiler New Focus of Ideologies :

Freedom - Cultural Victory, Economic Victory, Science Victory

Order - Science Victory, Domination Victory, Religious Victory

Autocracy - Domination Victory, Diplomatic Victory, Cultural Victory

Theocracy/whatever this will be called - Religious Victory, Diplomatic Victory, Cultural Victory

Corporatism/whatever this will be called - Economic Victory, Science Victory, Diplomatic Victory

Cultural - 3, Religious - 2, Science - 3, Domination - 2, Economic - 2. Diplomatic - 3

Now, Freedom will be relying on its TR for Cultural, Science or Economic Victory. Corporatism would focus on a much wider play and encourages active peaceful expansion late game. There will be the ability to buy votes for diplomatic so they don't even need to ally CS if that proves to be an expensive route.

Order will be aiming for a religious spread through conquest while science is also a possibility if you prefer isolation. Theocracy will be more of a religious spread through pressure and TR. More city converted means more delegates and more tourism modifier.

Autocracy will just reward conquest and aggression playstyle more.

 

[pineappledan]

I think how you've split is fine. I don't agree that Religious victory necessarily needs to have more than the Theocracy/Devotion/Piety ideology focused on it. I would have just kept Freedom as its Science/Cultural/Diplo spread.

In my opinion, Freedom feels the best to play as right now. I think the only thing I would change about Freedom would be:

• Draft Registration, which is currently so good it's broken.
• I would remove Freedom's gold bonuses to trade routes, just to give some space for Corporatocracy. Freedom has lots of bonuses focusing on cultural pressure and influence, so it already has a bunch of bonuses that funnel TRs into non-economic ends. You could add Order's old Pressure for civs sharing your ideology, just to give Freedom a stronger bloc to exert more cooperative pressure.

On the other hand, I agree with your initial assessment that Order deserves to be changed up and refocused on a new victory condition.

• the current iteration of VP Order has no idea what to do for CV, to such a degree that Gazebo just threw up his hands and made Cultural Revolution a 2.5x powered version of Freedom's Creative Expression
• Mechanically, CV also is at odds with all of Order's pro-isolationism bonuses.
• Order is based on communism/Marxism, and I would say that between Marxism's narrative of class struggle, Liberalism's preoccupation with freedom and justice, and Fascism's palingenetic myth-making, Marxism is the most materialist of all the pre-existing ideologies, and by that same token, the least suitable for a religious victory focus.
  • As an aside Autocracy/Fascism is probably the best-suited to a religious victory, because Fascism likes to co-opt symbolism and mythology to justify itself, but it would be hard to differentiate Autocracy from theocracy if they both had faith bonuses.
• Switching the isolationist/militaristic Order ideology to Economic victory lets you contrast it with an globalist/pacifist Corporatocracy/Prosperity ideology. You can further differentiate the two with Order's focus on cost and maintenance reduction, while Corporatocracy focuses on pure Gold generation. One makes money well and one saves money well.

The question then becomes, if Order is going to focus an EV, how will it do so better than Autocracy. Autocracy can conquer at least as well as Order can, because it's the most pure DomV ideology, so what gives Order that edge to slip into an EV? the only thing I can think of is something that allows them to capture monopolies beyond simple conquest.

My goal was to make Order a militaristic Economic victory ideology while Corporatism a peaceful Economic victory ideology. I don't feel there's a need for an explicit bonus since Order has its tools already. The biggest one is the free Courthouse in captured cities which is very powerful in getting more yields immediately.

This may be true, but we are only talking about 3 turns worth of low-tier city yields, and the most important part of an EV, the luxury tiles that you just took, doesn't care if a courthouse was built.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I think how you've split is fine. I don't agree that Religious victory necessarily needs to have more than the Theocracy/Devotion/Piety ideology focused on it. I would have just kept Freedom as its Science/Cultural/Diplo spread.

In my opinion, Freedom feels the best to play as right now. I think the only thing I would change about Freedom would be:

• Draft Registration, which is currently so good it's broken.
• I would remove Freedom's gold bonuses to trade routes, just to give some space for Corporatocracy. Freedom has lots of bonuses focusing on cultural pressure and influence, so it already has a bunch of bonuses that funnel TRs into non-economic ends. You could add Order's old Pressure for civs sharing your ideology, just to give Freedom a stronger bloc to exert more cooperative pressure.

I would prefer if another Ideology also can make Religious Victory possible. It doesn't have to be as strong but the choice should be there. Regarding Freedom, I used to feel the same but, after playing many matches, I feel that it's off for me.

I see the diplomatic route for Freedom fairly weak and boring. The Influence with all known CS when you expend a Great Person is quite weak. This doesn't amount for much. Then, there's the Influence per turn that you likely are already doing. As I said before, you actually get more Influence per turn from Statecraft so this is pretty weak. Ideally, you have already start getting SoI with CS before you even reached this tenet. Otherwise, this won't secure you the votes you need to snowball. Finally, I think +4 delegates scaling with map size as pretty boring. You just picked the tenet and get more delegates. At least you have to work for it with Autocracy regarding bullying friendly city states and bullying isn't easy unless you have a massive military.

Draft Registration is removed for how good it is for Freedom. Regarding the Gold bonuses, I feel that it's at a good spot and hesitate to change them. The numbers don't feel so high that they're broken. We also have to remember that TR is the main source of Gold in the late game. They just make those TR more worthwhile as a whole.

Like I said, more bonuses to TR for an ideology with unlimited franchises seems broken. I'd rather have some bonus for Corporatism where the capital gets certain yields scaling with the number of franchises. After all, a TR can change destination once a Franchise is established. Giving more TR means Corporatism will have a much easier time. Though, I won't know until I get back to the drawing board.

With more ideologies, I don't know how good any bonuses against same ideologies will be. I'd rather save that for something else if possible. I also feel that Freedom's Cultural Victory options are pretty strong as they are.

On the other hand, I agree with your initial assessment that Order deserves to be changed up and refocused on a new victory condition.

• the current iteration of VP Order has no idea what to do for CV, to such a degree that Gazebo just threw up his hands and made Cultural Revolution a 2.5x powered version of Freedom's Creative Expression
• Mechanically, CV also is at odds with all of Order's pro-isolationism bonuses.
• Order is based on communism/Marxism, and I would say that between Marxism's narrative of class struggle, Liberalism's preoccupation with freedom and justice, and Fascism's palingenetic myth-making, Marxism is the most materialist of all the pre-existing ideologies, and by that same token, the least suitable for a religious victory focus.
  • As an aside Autocracy/Fascism is probably the best-suited to a religious victory, because Fascism likes to co-opt symbolism and mythology to justify itself, but it would be hard to differentiate Autocracy from theocracy if they both had faith bonuses.
• Switching the isolationist/militaristic Order ideology to Economic victory lets you contrast it with an globalist/pacifist Corporatocracy/Prosperity ideology. You can further differentiate the two with Order's focus on cost and maintenance reduction, while Corporatocracy focuses on pure Gold generation. One makes money well and one saves money well.

The question then becomes, if Order is going to focus an EV, how will it do so better than Autocracy. Autocracy can conquer at least as well as Order can, because it's the most pure DomV ideology, so what gives Order that edge to slip into an EV? the only thing I can think of is something that allows them to capture monopolies beyond simple conquest.

Maybe Autocracy should have tools for a Religious Victory. You are right that those are quite similar. One will be spreading aggressively through spies and inquisitors. The other will rely on pressure, Missionaries and TR. In the meantime, Order will get Autocracy's tools for Diplomatic Victory. Bullying city states and gifting units to "satellite" CS seems, to me at least, more in line for Order. Freedom will focus on Gold generation from TR while Corporatism will focus on spreading franchises to create massive gold producing cities. I'm fine with Freedom getting a level 3 tenet that grants one copy of each luxury while Corporatism will have to expand with a building that doubles the luxuries within its border.

 

[pineappledan]

Kinda want another run at this. I think AG is designing new win conditions and ideologies for a complete overhaul modmod, but I'd be more interested in a 'modular' version that operated on existing eras and civ balance. So here's my 3rd draft of what that would look like. I'm trying to respond to criticism and modify my ideas for what I think is possible, given coding constraints.

Spoiler New Victories :

Economic Victory:

• Must have founded a Corporation
• Must control at least 1/3 of the Global monopolies (Strategic or Luxury)
• Must build the Fort Knox Wonder
  • Can only be built in your Capital
  • Built in 5 installments of Federal Bullion Reserve, costing 10,000 gold each
  • Bullion Reserve has a 5 turn purchase cooldown
  • Each installment has a -100 gold maintenance

Religious Victory:

• Must have founded a Religion
• >66% of the total world population must follow your religion
• Must build the Sumeru Wonder
  • Purchase 5 Gurus (2000Faith each)
  • Have a "Pilgrimage" action that expend the Gurus in your Capital to build a peak of Sumeru

Spoiler New Ideology/Victory distribution :

Order has a problem with its current cultural victory path because many of its tenets are isolationist, and work against that victory type. The other ideologies have fitting

Freedom - Cultural, Diplomatic, Science
Autocracy - Cultural, Diplomatic, Domination
Order - Economic, Domination, Science

Prosperity - Economic, Diplomatic, Science
Devotion - Cultural, Religious, Domination

Spoiler Prosperity :

Wonder:

EPCOT
Unlocked at Corporations
Requires Prosperity Ideology and 18 social policies
1600
11
1 Free Social Policy
50 When Adopting Policies or discovering Technologies, Scaling with Era.

National Wonder
World Trade Centre
Unlocked at Electricity
Requires Wire Service in the City
+15%Gold, +15%Science
+1 Great Diplomat Points
1 Civil Servant Specialist
+1 Paper
Receive one vote in the World Congress for every 2 Civilizations giving you Open Borders Agreements

Tier 1
Pop Art
20% of Tourism in Cities is converted into Gold. +5 Gold and +3 Production to Hotels, Stadiums, and Airports

Regulatory Capture
Free Stock Exchange in all Cities. +100% quantity of Strategic and Luxury Resources from City-States, and resources from City-States Contribute to Global monopolies.

Lobbyists
5 and 5 per turn in your Capital for each Delegate you control in the World Congress. City State Influence decays 25% more slowly

Gospel of Wealth
Great Merchants grant 200 Influence from Diplomatic Actions. Gold investments in Buildings reduce their Production cost by an additional 10%.

Insider Trading
+2 Trade Routes. Can establish Gold Internal Trade Routes. +5Gold and Food in your Capital for every Active Trade Route

Too Big To Fail
+3Gold to Banks, Stock Markets, Academies, Manufactories, Towns, Villages, and Unique Improvements.

Soft Power
+30 Influence for Diplomatic Mission Actions. Unit Purchase Cooldowns are reduced by 1 turn.

Tier 2
Diplomatic Immunity
+2 Spies and the Chance to Steal Gold is greatly increased. +50 Culture whenever a Spy completes an Advanced Action.

Tonnage War
Can build the Flower Class. +20XP for purchased units.

Spoiler Flower Class :

Flower Class - From JFD’s Canada mod
Unlocked at Rocketry
1300 (300 less than destroyer)
75CS
6Moves
Can detect submarines
Intercept (25)
Bonus vs Cities (33)
30 Air Strike Defense

Panopticism
+10%Gold and Science in all Cities. City Unhappiness does not affect City yields ( Unhappiness still reduces Golden Age Progress, triggers rebellion, and stops settler production).

Indigo Era
Receive a Free Great Merchant and Great Scientist. +15% Gold during 'We Love the King Days'. 100Gold when you discover a new Technology, Scaling with Era

Corporate Personhood
+33% Yields to all Trade Routes. Yields from Processes in all Cities are increased by 10%.

Company Towns
+100% Production towards Settler units. Settlers claim all Resource tiles within 3 tiles, and Start with a free Factory.

Big Pharma
Free Medical Lab in your Capital. +100% Production towards Medical Labs on Empire. Research Labs and Medical Labs gain 5and 5

Tier 3
Campaign Contributions
Can purchase Votes for the World Congress with Gold.

Horizontal Integration
All Improved Luxury Resources Provide 1 additional Resource copy . 10Gold and Science in the Capital for each Global Monopoly

Private Spaceflight
No limit to the number of Corporate Franchises on Empire. +2%Production Towards Spaceship Parts in your Capital for every Corporate Franchise you control.

Spoiler Devotion :

Wonder
Abraj Al Bait Towers

Unlocked at Ballistics
Requires Devotion Ideology and 20 social policies
1700
Must be built in a Holy City
12
1 Free Social Policy
Free Hotel
50% of Faith is converted to Tourism in this City

National Wonder
Interfaith Worship Centre
Unlocked at Flight
Must be Built in your Holy City
+15%Faith, +15%Culture
+1 Great Diplomat Points
1 Civil Servant Specialist
+1 Paper
Receive one vote in the World Congress for every 10 Cities following your Religion

Tier 1:
Ribat
+3 and 2 to military training buildings. Can build Mujahideen

Spoiler Mujahideen :

Unlocked at Ballistics
1200
55CS, 55RCS (1 range) (up from 52/52)
20 Air Strike Defense (up from 5)
5Moves
May not Melee Attack
Interception I (25)
Can retreat after attacking
Penalty vs cities (-33)
Naval Target Penalty (-20)
Benefits from Terrain Bonuses

Divine Wind
Can purchase Air units with Faith. Air Units have +25% vs land and sea units.

Charitable Works
Each Public Works project provide +15%Great Person Rate in the City. 100 Food when a Great Person is Expended, scaling with Era.

National Myth
Cities can purchase Cenotaphs with Faith. Faith Purchase costs reduced by 25%.

Spoiler Cenotaph :

3, 3, 3, 1
When you construct a Unit in this City, gain Science, Culture, and Gold equal to 10% of the Unit's Production cost
+50% Religious Pressure

Religious Art
+3 to Great Works. +20% Tourism during Golden Ages.

Not-For-Profit Organization
+2 to Corporate Offices. Corporate Franchises in Foreign cities exert +50 Religious pressure (standard speed). -20%Distress on Empire

Shepherd of the Nations
+3Faith to Pastures, Holy Sites, Landmarks, and Unique Improvements. Purchasing Great People with Faith also contributes 15% to the progress of that Great Person in the City.

Tier 2:
Graveyard of Empire
Enemy units lose all movement when entering your borders. -33% War Weariness.

Autocracy's Martial Spirit changed to -20%Empire Size modifier​

Televangelism
Free Stadium in all Cities. +25% Religious Pressure Distance for your majority Religion.

Administration of Savagery
2 Additional Spies. Spies in Enemy cities are much more likely to trigger rebellion, and reduce City Strength by 10.

The Great Commission
Tourism Modifier for shared Religion increased by 34%. Missionaries are 100% more powerful. 5 Missionaries appear at your Capital.

State Religion
Receive a Free Great Prophet. Cities Following your Religion gain +5Tourism, Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points. Bonus is Doubled in your Holy City.

Reliquaries
All Theming bonuses gain 5Tourism and Culture. +3 Gold, +3 Faith, and +100% Production towards Museums

Just War
15 units do not cost Maintenance. All Military Units are healed and gain 50 XP Immediately.

Tier 3:
Millenarianism
A Permanent Golden Age Begins. +2Happiness in all Cities.

Armageddon
+100% Military Supply from Population. Receive 1 Free ICBM. Can purchase Nuclear weapons with Faith.

The Will of God
All Citizens in your Empire are instantly converted to your Faith. 1 Faith and Tourism for every follower of your religion in Foreign Cities.

Spoiler Revised Order Tenets :

Dictatorship of the Proletariat (Old)
+50% Tourism to civilizations with less Happiness. +1 Happiness from Factories.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat (New)
+1 Happiness from Factories. Can construct Commissariats

Spoiler Commissariat :

art by Janboruta

requires Dictatorship of the Proletariat and Industrialization Tech
1000
no maintenance
+5, +5, +5
-5% from all Needs and Empire modifiers in this City
10%Production and +10XP towards military units in this City

Cultural Revolution (Old)
+34% Tourism to other Order civilizations, and +5 Tourism from all Great Works. Spies steal technologies at double the normal rate.

Collectivization (New)
-20% Building Gold Maintenance. Gain 50Production, Scaling with Era, and Retain 10% of Food when a new Citizen is born

Great Leap Forward (Old)
Receive 2 free technologies.

Thousand Little Things (New)
1 free copy of all Luxury Resources on the map. +2Gold for all Luxury and Bonus Resources on Empire.

 

[Drakle]

I still don't like all the new religious conversion stuff, particularly pressure. The religion game is Classic to about Reniassance when you can explore and convert some pagan AIs and city states. After that, faith costs get really high for missionaries, and it is time to faith buy Great People. Devotion just sounds utterly annoying, and also potenially completely broken if picked by India, or Byzantium with three faith buildings, which I have seen them do.

The modern day trend hasn't been large scale conversions, except to weird evangelical groups . It is religion dying to secularism, and fighting desperate rear guard actions.

 

[pineappledan]

I think the Devotion tree looks easiest to run as a domination civ, where you are focused on capturing population, rather than capitals, and then converting via inquisition. You could try to focus on conversions, but that sounds like an uphill battle.

The modern day trend hasn't been large scale conversions, except to weird evangelical groups . It is religion dying to secularism, and fighting desperate rear guard actions.

I don't agree. The current game definitely has a freedom player leading, but they've got an order player hot on their heels. There was another Order player who was on top for Modern/Atomic, but he lost the lead after he tangled with a turtling Devotion player who had a bunch of defensive pacts.

The current Freedom leader is slipping on their lead because they have spent the last 20 turns fighting a two-front war against a smaller autocracy player and that same Devotion player that took down the old Order player. The Freedom leader beat Autocracy pretty easy, but couldn't handle the unhappiness hit from conquering those cities, but they still haven't managed to get a peace deal from the devotion player, who is content to sap them for War Weariness. It's likely that Devotion isn't going to win this round, but they've been playing kingmaker for the last 60 turns. Devotion has a distant third, but they're doing better than Autocracy, who has been knocked down for 3 eras, and most of their civs have had to switch ideologies from cultural pressure.

Freedom better watch out, because the other Order player has managed to go the past 2 eras without a war, has a good lead on total population, and is catching up quick on GDP and GNP, and all anyone has done to slow him down is a pass a few WC votes against him.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Kinda want another run at this. I think AG is designing new win conditions and ideologies for a complete overhaul modmod, but I'd be more interested in a 'modular' version that operated on existing eras and civ balance. So here's my 3rd draft of what that would look like. I'm trying to respond to criticism and modify my ideas for what I think is possible, given coding constraints.

I haven't looked at the tenets in details but here are a couple of things that jumped out for me.

Spoiler :

Graveyard of Empire
Enemy units in your land take 5 damage each turn and lose all movement when entering your borders.

The Great Wall is already very powerful as it is. Now, you not only have a Great Wall for the rest of the game but also take away any healing when Medic units aren't involved. I've yet to see AI handle facing Great Wall well so this Tenet will likely cripple any attempts by AI to invade your territory on land. I also won't enjoy attacking enemies during the late game when I have many units to move. Slowing it down will make it a bigger grind than it already is.

Must build the Fort Knox Wonder

• Can only be built in your Capital
• Built in 5 installments of Federal Bullion Reserve, costing 10,000 gold each
• Bullion Reserve has a 5 turn purchase cooldown
• Each installment has a -100 gold maintenance

I get what you are going for here. However, there are a few issues I can see with this. Stockpiling Gold is extremely difficult until you unlock Police Station and Police Station is unlocked just before Information Era. Then, there's the -100 Gold maintenance which seems like a lot. After the fourth one, you have -400 Gold deficit. I don't know what's the standard income for most people so maybe this is reasonable. However, I don't see this being possible until Police Stations are built as any theft will make accumulating any large sum of Gold impossible. Either you are the leader where enemy spies are all stealing from you left and right until you get Police Stations or you are behind, not dealing with spies, and simply lacking the momentum to get this done before the leader wins.

Armageddon
+100% Military Supply from Population. A Free Military Unit appears in every city and Military Units receive +25% Defense. All Civilizations who do not share your majority religion are Permanently at war.

I think the Devotion tree looks easiest to run as a domination civ, where you are focused on capturing population, rather than capitals, and then converting via inquisition. You could try to focus on conversions, but that sounds like an uphill battle.

In this case, should I go for Autocracy? If capturing cities is the best way forward, Autocracy seems to give me the better tools to do that. Then, I have no reason to pick Devotion as Autocracy helps me secure Religious Victory without needing to capture all the enemy Capitals.

I hope I don't sound harsh or anything. These are the big things that jump out at me.

 

[pineappledan]

I get what you are going for here. However, there are a few issues I can see with this. Stockpiling Gold is extremely difficult until you unlock Police Station and Police Station is unlocked just before Information Era. Then, there's the -100 Gold maintenance which seems like a lot. After the fourth one, you have -400 Gold deficit. I don't know what's the standard income for most people so maybe this is reasonable. However, I don't see this being possible until Police Stations are built as any theft will make accumulating any large sum of Gold impossible. Either you are the leader where enemy spies are all stealing from you left and right until you get Police Stations or you are behind, not dealing with spies, and simply lacking the momentum to get this done before the leader wins.

The gold maintenance seemed like a great way to give a synergy to Order, since they have a -20% on building maintenance. 10,000 might be too high, but I think if you were going for a win condition, setting all your TRs to external, and working Wealth, it sounds pretty doable. In my last game I was making 1400 GPT in the last few turns with Autocracy.

Maybe 4 installments is all that's needed. That would mean you could complete the wonder in 16 turns, which seems more reasonable (13 with Prosperity's Soft Power)

In this case, should I go for Autocracy? If capturing cities is the best way forward, Autocracy seems to give me the better tools to do that. Then, I have no reason to pick Devotion as Autocracy helps me secure Religious Victory without needing to capture all the enemy Capitals.

Sure, you could go Diplo with Order, or whichever victory makes the most sense.

This is why religious victory could be hard to make work, because you can simply convert everyone by the sword, so religious victory either needs to have a very high threshold (66% or more was what I figured would be a good start), or it needs to have some overt peaceful requirement, but I'm not a fan of that idea.

The possibility of a victory path that doesn't have such rigid requirements as a pure Dom victory appeals to me though. Religious victory lets you vassalize without having to take the capital, and lets you build a late game around spreader enhancers like Way of the Pilgrim and Orthodoxy.

The Great Wall is already very powerful as it is. Now, you not only have a Great Wall for the rest of the game but also take away any healing when Medic units aren't involved. I've yet to see AI handle facing Great Wall well so this Tenet will likely cripple any attempts by AI to invade your territory on land. I also won't enjoy attacking enemies during the late game when I have many units to move. Slowing it down will make it a bigger grind than it already is.

My initial idea was to have Devotion inflict higher war weariness on opponents, like the Huns UA, but that's new code. Maybe it would be worth it to ask for that DLL change though. Or, maybe the -5 hp on enemies in your borders is enough of a bonus on its own?

 

[amateurgamer88]

The gold maintenance seemed like a great way to give a synergy to Order, since they have a -20% on building maintenance. 10,000 might be too high, but I think if you were going for a win condition, setting all your TRs to external, and working Wealth, it sounds pretty doable. In my last game I was making 1400 GPT in the last few turns with Autocracy.

Maybe 4 installments is all that's needed. That would mean you could complete the wonder in 16 turns, which seems more reasonable (13 with Prosperity's Soft Power)

External TR are vulnerable to things like Sanctions and wars. Unlike the other Ideology, this feels very punishing if someone going for DV decided to sanction you as it impacts your corporation and TRs. The tools Prosperity provides for DV are also related to gold so not having enough gold will make that tough as well. As for making 1400 GPT, is that the average of all your games? What difficulty is it? What civilization are you playing as? I feel like there are lots of factors that can impact the GPT one makes. I can definitely see Spies crippling someone going for Prosperity and I don't recall many defensive spying Tenets.

Sure, you could go Diplo with Order, or whichever victory makes the most sense.

This is why religious victory could be hard to make work, because you can simply convert everyone by the sword, so religious victory either needs to have a very high threshold (66% or more was what I figured would be a good start), or it needs to have some overt peaceful requirement, but I'm not a fan of that idea.

The possibility of a victory path that doesn't have such rigid requirements as a pure Dom victory appeals to me though. Religious victory lets you vassalize without having to take the capital, and lets you build a late game around spreader enhancers like Way of the Pilgrim and Orthodoxy.

Religious victory is certainly tricky because it can have a lot in common with Domination. The reason why I put this on hold and decided on working on my overhaul is due to this exact thing. Religion is designed where it's very strong early game and it steadily weakens until it's mostly irrelevant in the late game except for Great People purchases. I feel that there are more than can be done two extend religion to make it even relevant in the late game. For VP, that is too drastic of a change though.

My initial idea was to have Devotion inflict higher war weariness on opponents, like the Huns UA, but that's new code. Maybe it would be worth it to ask for that DLL change though. Or, maybe the -5 hp on enemies in your borders is enough of a bonus on its own?

Even -5 HP is extremely powerful. It doesn't seem like much but the defensive side now has a huge advantage. I also don't know how well the AI can handle such a problem when their first wave of units just withdraws once lowered to a certain HP threshold. Defending against AI might just become so much easier as a whole.

 

[pineappledan]

External TR are vulnerable to things like Sanctions and wars.

Both Prosperity and Order have ways of dealing with that though. Order has massive bonuses to ITR and prosperity can send gold ITRs

As for making 1400 GPT, is that the average of all your games? What difficulty is it? What civilization are you playing as?

Canada, King difficulty, so it's on the high end, since Canada does have bonuses towards gold, but it still wouldn't be that hard to reproduce, since I wasn't consciously maximizing gold

Spoiler :

 

[pineappledan]

edited my previous post with all the ideology proposals a little.

• All the pictures should be visible now
• Added Collectivization tenet to Order to replace Cultural Revolution, since Order isn't going CV anymore
• buffed a lot of Devotion policies (there was almost no happiness or bonuses outside Faith)
• changed Armaggedon. No longer forces you into war. Can buy Nuclear weapons with Faith

Some ideology ideas I had that didn't make the cut:

Spoiler :

• Building Great Person Tile improvements could claim all adjacent tiles. It's a significant sacrifice to not bulb GPs late game, but if you need to steal tiles for monopoly resources, you could chain GPs to steal land from neighbors and take their land without war.
• Original idea for Armageddon was to give a major defensive buff to your own units and lock all other civs into permanent holy war against you
• Instead of disabling the franchise cap. Prosperity could give the ability to build a second Corporation, with its own separate franchise cap
• Could add back the double tech stealing rate for spies as a "corporate espionage" tenet
• Spies could steal copies of luxury resources (don't know how they would choose which one though)
• I originally wanted to make it so Prosperity Diplomats could do spy actions.

 

[pineappledan]

Putting this here so I don't lose it or forget about it. @InkAxis and a few others were discussing a different idea for how Economic victory could work.

The idea, essentially, is to have a project that is unlocked by your corporation that, when completed, wins the game. You win an economic victory by creating such a powerful economy and corporate monopoly that the world starts using joint stock in your company as the world currency.

Spoiler New Victories :

Economic Victory:

• Must have founded a Corporation (which means you must have at least 1 monopoly)
• A Corporation unlocks a massive project called "Adopt [CORPORATION_NAME] Bucks" (ie. Giorgio Bucks, Sid Bucks, 2Kay Bucks etc.)
  • Each Corporate Franchise increases Production towards your currency project by 10%
  • Each Global Monopoly on Empire increases Production towards your currency by 10%
  • Every 2 Net GPT on empire (ie. your gold per turn after deducting Unit/building maintenance and trade deals) increases Production towards your currency by 1%

Religious Victory:

• Must have founded a Religion
• >66% of the total world population must follow your religion
• Must build the Sumeru Wonder
  • Purchase 5 Gurus (2000Faith each)
  • Have a "Pilgrimage" action that expend the Gurus in your Capital to build a peak of Sumeru

Spoiler New Ideology/Victory distribution :

Order has a problem with its current cultural victory path because many of its tenets are isolationist, and work against that victory type. The other ideologies have fitting

Freedom - Cultural, Diplomatic, Science
Autocracy - Cultural, Diplomatic, Domination
Order - Economic, Domination, Science

Prosperity - Economic, Diplomatic, Science
Devotion - Cultural, Religious, Domination

Spoiler Prosperity :

Wonder:
View attachment 587897
EPCOT
Unlocked at Corporations
Requires Prosperity Ideology and 18 social policies
1600
11
1 Free Social Policy
50 When Adopting Policies or discovering Technologies, Scaling with Era.

National Wonder
World Trade Centre
Unlocked at Electricity
Requires Wire Service in the City
+15%Gold, +15%Science
+1 Great Diplomat Points
1 Civil Servant Specialist
+1 Paper
Receive one vote in the World Congress for every 2 Civilizations giving you Open Borders Agreements

Tier 1
Pop Art
20% of Tourism in Cities is converted into Gold. +5 Gold and +3 Production to Hotels, Stadiums, and Airports

Regulatory Capture
Free Stock Exchange in all Cities. +100% quantity of Strategic and Luxury Resources from City-States, and resources from City-States Contribute to Global monopolies.

Lobbyists
5 and 5 per turn in your Capital for each Delegate you control in the World Congress. City State Influence decays 25% more slowly

Gospel of Wealth
Great Merchants grant 200 Influence from Diplomatic Actions. Gold investments in Buildings reduce their Production cost by an additional 10%.

Insider Trading
+2 Trade Routes. Can establish Gold Internal Trade Routes. +5Gold and Food in your Capital for every Active Trade Route

Too Big To Fail
+3Gold to Banks, Stock Markets, Academies, Manufactories, Towns, Villages, and Unique Improvements.

Soft Power
+30 Influence for Diplomatic Mission Actions. Unit Purchase Cooldowns are reduced by 1 turn.

Tier 2
Diplomatic Immunity
+2 Spies and the Chance to Steal Gold is greatly increased. +50 Culture whenever a Spy completes an Advanced Action.

Tonnage War
Can build the Flower Class. +20XP for purchased units.

Spoiler Flower Class :

View attachment 587898
Flower Class - From JFD’s Canada mod
Replaces Destroyer
Unlocked at Rocketry
1300 (300 less than destroyer)
75CS
6Moves
Can detect submarines
Intercept (25)
Bonus vs Cities (33)
30 Air Strike Defense

Panopticism
+10%Gold and Science in all Cities. Unhappiness in Cities does not affect yields. ( Unhappiness still reduces Golden Age Progress, triggers rebellion, and stops settler production).

Indigo Era
Receive a Free Great Merchant and Great Scientist. +15% Gold during 'We Love the King Days'. 100Gold when you discover a new Technology, Scaling with Era

Corporate Personhood
Trade Routes provide +33% more Yields and move 50% faster. Yields from Processes in all Cities are increased by 10%.

Company Towns
+100% Production towards Settler units. Newly settled Cities claim all Resources within 3 tiles, and Start with a free Factory.

Big Pharma
Free Medical Lab in your Capital. +100% Production towards Medical Labs on Empire. Research Labs and Medical Labs gain 5and 5

Tier 3
Campaign Contributions
Can purchase Votes for the World Congress with Gold.

Horizontal Integration
All Improved Luxury Resources Provide 1 additional Resource copy . 10Gold and Science in the Capital for each Global Monopoly

Private Spaceflight
No limit to the number of Corporate Franchises on Empire. +2%Production Towards Spaceship Parts in your Capital for every Corporate Franchise you control.

Spoiler Devotion :

Wonder
Abraj Al Bait Towers
View attachment 587899
Unlocked at Ballistics
Requires Devotion Ideology and 20 social policies
1700
Must be built in a Holy City
12
1 Free Social Policy
Free Hotel
50% of Faith is converted to Tourism in this City

National Wonder
Interfaith Worship Centre
Unlocked at Flight
Must be Built in your Holy City
+15%Faith, +15%Culture
+1 Great Diplomat Points
1 Civil Servant Specialist
+1 Paper
Receive one vote in the World Congress for every 10 Cities following your Religion

Tier 1:
Ribat
+3 and 2 to military training buildings. Can build Mujahideen

Spoiler Mujahideen :

View attachment 587900
Replaces the Light Tank
Unlocked at Ballistics
1200
55CS, 55RCS (1 range) (up from 52/52)
20 Air Strike Defense (up from 5)
5Moves
May not Melee Attack
Interception I (25)
Can retreat after attacking
Penalty vs cities (-33)
Naval Target Penalty (-20)
Benefits from Terrain Bonuses

Divine Wind
Can purchase Air units with Faith. Air Units have +25% vs land and sea units.

Charitable Works
Each Public Works projects provides +10%Great Person Rate in the City. 100 Food when a Great Person is Expended, scaling with Era. Can purchase Workers and Work Boats with Faith.

National Myth
Cities can purchase Cenotaphs with Faith. Faith Purchase costs reduced by 25%.

Spoiler Cenotaph :

View attachment 587979
3, 3, 3, 1
When you construct a Unit in this City, gain Science, Culture, and Gold equal to 10% of the Unit's Production cost
+50% Religious Pressure

Religious Art
+3 to Great Works. +20% Tourism and Great Person Rate in all Cities during Golden Ages.

Not-For-Profit Organization
+2 to Corporate Offices. Corporate Franchises in Foreign cities exert +50 Religious pressure (standard speed). -20%Distress on Empire

Shepherd of the Nations
+3Faith to Pastures, Holy Sites, Landmarks, and Unique Improvements. Purchasing Great People with Faith also contributes 10% to the progress of that Great Person in the City.

Tier 2:
Graveyard of Empire
Enemy units lose all movement when entering your borders. +5Defense in all Cities. -33% War Weariness.

Autocracy's Martial Spirit changed to -20%Empire Size modifier​

Televangelism
Free Stadium in all Cities. +25% Religious Pressure Distance for your majority Religion.

Administration of Savagery
2 Additional Spies. Thieves in Enemy cities Steal Great Works more quickly, and reduce City Strength by 10.

The Great Commission
Tourism Modifier for shared Religion increased by 34%. Missionaries are 100% more powerful. 5 Missionaries appear at your Capital.

State Religion
Receive a Free Great Prophet. Cities Following your Religion gain +5Tourism, Gold, Culture, and Golden Age Points. Bonus is Doubled in your Holy City.

Reliquaries
Museums gain +3 Gold, +3 Faith and +100% Production towards Museums. Theming bonuses are Doubled.

Just War
15 Units do not cost Gold Maintenance. All Military Units are healed and gain 50 XP Immediately.

Tier 3:
Millenarianism
A Permanent Golden Age Begins. +2Happiness in all Cities.

Armageddon
+100% Military Supply from Population. Receive 1 Free ICBM. Can purchase Nuclear weapons with Faith.

The Will of God
All Citizens in your Empire are instantly converted to your Faith. 1 Faith and Tourism for every follower of your religion in Foreign Cities.

Spoiler Revised Order Tenets :

Dictatorship of the Proletariat (Old)
+50% Tourism to civilizations with less Happiness. +1 Happiness from Factories.

Dictatorship of the Proletariat (New)
+1 Happiness from Factories. Can construct Commissariats

Spoiler Commissariat :

art by Janboruta
View attachment 587901
requires Dictatorship of the Proletariat and Industrialization Tech
1000
no maintenance
+5, +5, +5
-5% from all Needs and Empire modifiers in this City
10%Production and +10XP towards military units in this City

Cultural Revolution (Old)
+34% Tourism to other Order civilizations, and +5 Tourism from all Great Works. Spies steal technologies at double the normal rate.

Collectivization (New)
+50% Worker Improvement Rate. Gain 50Production, Scaling with Era, and Retain 10% of Food when a new Citizen is born

Iron Fist - loses 50% worker improvement rate. Gain Science in Capital equal (100%) to the Tribute demanded from City-States.​

Great Leap Forward (Old)
Receive 2 free technologies.

Thousand Little Things (New)
1 free copy of all Luxury Resources on the map. An Additional 10% Towards your Corporate Currency for each Global Monopoly on Empire (total of 20%)

Spoiler Ideas for WC, Tech Tree and Wonder Integration :

WC proposals:

• Fiat Currency: -100% Production modifier towards establishing a Corporate Currency
• Cryptocurrency WC Project
  • Unlocks at Corporations
  • Bronze: Free Great Merchant and Trade Route Slot
  • Silver: Server Farm built in your Capital city
    • 10
    • -5%Gold Maintenance from buildings on Empire
    • 15% of Gold Purchases in this city converted to Production
  • Gold: Builds the HyperLedger wonder in your Capital
    • 1Culture
    • Each Corporate Office on Empire acts as 1 Corporate franchise (Stacks with Order's Nationalization Policy)
    • Doubles the % Production modifier towards establishing your Corporate Currency from Net Gold Per Turn (1GPT=1% production modifier)
• Secularization: All cities generate -50% Religious pressure

Wonders:
Fort Knox
Unlocks at Advanced Ballistics
11
2Great Merchant Points
8CS in city
PreventsGold Stealing Spy action in all Cities
Every 25 Gold you have stored in reserve contributes +1% Production towards establishing your Corporate Currency

Sagrada Familia
Unlocks at Electronics
3500 cost (very high, almost 2x the pentagon)
1010
A great engineer is born
+100% to religious pressure From all cities on empire
+100% resistance to religious pressure on empire

 

[amateurgamer88]

@pineappledan Thanks for the suggestions! I will revisit this after I finish one of my smaller mods. I'm brainstorming ideas and will probably tackle one victory at a time.

• Each Corporate Franchise increases Production towards your currency project by 10%

• Each Global Monopoly on Empire increases Production towards your currency by 10%

These two jumped out for me. If you have a luxury banned or get sanctioned, your Franchises and/or Global Monopoly vanishes? Do we really want someone going Diplomatic Victory to have the tools to shut down someone going Economic Victory so badly? If an AI goes Economic and I go Diplomatic, I can focus everything at the civilization to grind that victory to a stop and there would be little to no consequences other than war. Economic isn't a Domination focused victory.

 

[pineappledan]

If you have a luxury banned or get sanctioned, your Franchises and/or Global Monopoly vanishes? Do we really want someone going Diplomatic Victory to have the tools to shut down someone going Economic Victory so badly?

So first, some perspective:

• There are WC proposals to shut down other specific victory types (eg. travel ban, Peace accords, nuclear non-proliferation, spaceflight regulations, science initiative/endowment for the Arts)
• w.r.t. the relative power of those WC counter-resolutions, The power of a sanction might already be consistent with other impediments.
  • I would expect the average player to get >300% modifiers on the currency project, whereas an average SV player gets between 50%-75% on spaceship parts, depending on if they built the Hubble Wonder.
  • Recall my late game Canada example above, which would be getting almost 800% modifier from its GPT alone (1 GPT = +0.5% Currency modifier).
  • With that in mind, the -25%production penalty from Spaceflight regulations would be equivalent to a 150+% currency penalty. Hence my Fiat Currency proposal, which has 4x the penalty relative to Spaceflight Regulations.

By comparison, each banned luxury is only a 10% reduction, and that is trivial when weighed against your modifier potential for franchises, gold income, other monopolies, and other sources like the beneficial wonders and WC proposals.

The real issue is sanctioning, and that really could hurt. My point of view on that is sanctioning is a ready-made WC counterproposal to the Econ victory, so maybe we don't need that Fiat Currency WC proposal?
The two main EV ideologies are Order and Prosperity

• Order has no diplomatic boosts, but its nationalization policy lets you ignore the effects of a sanction (2 franchises in your cities with a corporate office).
• Prosperity does need franchises in foreign cities, but the ideology has a lot of Diplo boosts to help protect their interests in the WC.

So, there is already some counterplay available to protect the Econ victory. Order can just ignore the WC like usual, and Prosperity is given the power it needs to defend its interests in the WC. You are right, however, about Sanctioning being very powerful in a more general sense, because it also shuts down Trade routes. With that in mind, maybe Franchises should only count for 5% each? That way a Sanction won't hurt you so bad, relative to the other modifiers.

We're going to have to do some testing in order to adjust the relative power of Monopolies/franchises/gold income/gold reserves for currency project modifiers. The power of sanctions and monopoly bans to shut down an EconV needs to be a part of that weighting. You want them to hurt, to take as much as 1/3 off the speed of that victory type if passed, but you don't want them to just defang a victory condition.

 

[pineappledan]

updated proposals with the reworked ideology unit replacement mechanic. reworked some policies so they use more existing code.