AI cheat?

[Ermelinho]

^^ I don't know if it is related with your unit, but animals can't enter resource tiles ( don't know why.... ). Maybe your mod unit has some animal like "code" usage?....

no, it has worker usage

That's actually an interesting question and I don't think it has been tested before. If AI workers *do* know about hidden resources, then this could give the AI a slight advantage (for example by mining the hill where copper will surface instead of all the other hills available). That would probably be a bug rather than a cheat though. Also, I wonder, doesn't the AI use the same algorithms like the player when he automates his units? If so, then there'd be little room for cheats.

i haven´t concluded the test concerning this issue. i just wanted to see if the ai does actually know how to USE the unit. the fact that existing res are being replaced made me reject the idea of having such a unit quickly, because humans definately DON`T know about hidden res without cheating.
but if you´re really interested, i could adjust test conditions on the cheating problem.
as yet, it could still be fluke.

 

[Psyringe]

but if you´re really interested, i could adjust test conditions on the cheating problem.
as yet, it could still be fluke.

Well, count me as really interested. Don't let it interfere with your modding schedule of course, but if you could squeeze in an additional test to explore this behavior, I'd be grateful.

 

[r_rolo1]

Another interested soul.... ( not counting you.... AI seeding horses everywhere should not be fun at all )

P.S Anyone has a idea how to test it in regular game?

 

[ViterboKnight]

A question about something I noticed during my last game.

I know that AI receives bonuses on levels higher than Noble, allright!

However, I was about to attack an enemy civ. Espionage allowed me to examine his cities, and I saw his next longbowman was being produced in three turns. So, to avoid him to finish a new unit, I attack immediately.
I declared war, moved into his land, and ended my turn.
While no more units moved from outside the city to defend it, another longbowman appeared inside, and he was actually starting to build a new longbowman.
So, no way! The unit, that was expected to be built in three turns, was finished in only one turn!

Ok, I realized that rushed units (I tested whip, not sure for buy) are produced BEFORE enemy turn, so if you rush a unit in an undefended city with enemies just outside, you still have time to defend.

So....this was a false alarm!!!

 

[Ermelinho]

sorry to say that here´s another false alarm.
there is no significant evidence that the ai tries to avoid planting horses on tiles with hidden resources.

consequently i apologize for my rash pronouncement.

 

[Psyringe]

P.S Anyone has a idea how to test it in regular game?

Roland already reported that the AI does build (for example) windmills over coal resources that it schouldn't be able to see yet, so it seems unlikely that the worker AI (even if it could see the hidden resource) really makes use of this knowledge.

A better controlled test could look like this ... aww, it's probably more work to write it down than to just put it together in the worldbuilder, so I'll do the latter. Hold on a minute ...

 

[Psyringe]

'kay, here it is.

Load the attached savegame. You're Mansa Musa, the AI is Bismarck. I gave the AI a 3x3 island made of plains hills, and placed a Great Spy for you in his city for convenient viewing. I suggest to just infiltrate the city.

First run: Just watch what the AI does. Bismarck will mine all the hills (well, it's not that he has many options ), but he will leave the copper resource alone for a while. Instead, he'll start mining the north tile, and then works his way clockwise around the island.

Second run: Reload the game. Immediately contact Bismarck and gift him Bronze Working. End turn. You'll see that (now that he can see the copper) he immediately moves the worker to the copper tile and starts mining it.

Seems like conclusive evidence that the worker AI does not know about the hidden resource. Or did I miss something?

Of course, this still doesn't explain the behavior observed by ermelinho when testing his mod. But it demonstrates that the AI workers do not know about hidden resources. (Edit: Just noticed that he decribed the previously observed behaviour as false alarm already, so I'd opt for "case closed" )

 

[weasel77066]

My beef tonight seems to be combat order. Perhaps Im missing something, but this seems curiously strange for typical combat procedure.

I had a naval stack of 5 stealth destroyers sitting off the enemy coast. One of these destroyers I hit the -sea patrol- button to guard a fish next door, the other four, I had sentry (none of these were grouped together, they were just on the same square) OK so I loaded up a submarine and slipped him into the stack and sentry him as well...

Next turn, enemy destroyer sails out, pillages fish, then sails back into city. (no effect what-so-ever for the sea patrol key)... second enemy destroyer sails out and targets my submarine which is the weakest vessel in the stack. My stealth destroyers, move backwards a square (retreat) and my submarine is sunk along with his missles. The enemy sails back into city. Argh. Unless Im missing something about stealth destroyers, then isnt the strongest unit supposed to defend? In this case its a +7 promoed stealth destroyer.

Later I build up and the same thing happens again but with a fully loaded transport of highly XPed marines. Each stealth destroyer moves away one square and four battalions of young marines go bubbling down to ole Hob- Something is not right..

In this very game Ive attacked his naval forces and his transports or galleons are the last in line, and he's always been able to land his ground forces due to--- I run out of attacking ships to hit them after his strong ones are gone. But he seems to be able to TARGET mine first then flee away to safety.

It certainly has some salty phrases coming out of my mouth. Anyone have an idea what is going on here? Am I missing something about stealth? I'll try to get a non-stealth unit available to add in the stack and see what happens. Just that Im running out of war..

PS- I checked the combat log and it gave no clue. Just appeared as though his destroyer attacked and destroyed my transport. No lines detailing why the fleet retreated a square.
Seems like a cheat to me.........

 

[r_rolo1]

Your enemies couldn,t see the stealth destroyer and, because of that, they couldn't attack it ( and were bumped away, like happens to subs when they come across a enemy ship that can't see them in the same timle ). You should not use them for escorting ships.....

 

[KMadCandy]

Your enemies couldn,t see the stealth destroyer and, because of that, they couldn't attack it ( and were bumped away, like happens to subs when they come across a enemy ship that can't see them in the same timle ). You should not use them for escorting ships.....

the bumping thing is listed on the change list for the ComingRealSoonNow patch (which we now have an ETA for, alexman says they think 'the plan is to release the patch after the weekend (Monday or Tuesday) so yay!):

"Invisible units no longer get bumped when an enemy occupies the same tile."

i don't like stealth destroyers simply because once you can make them, you can't make plain-old destroyers any more, and there are some things that the old-fashioned ones are much better at! besides defending against attacks vs. ships since they're not invisible to them, normal destroyers can see subs but stealth Ds can't. i don't know why they designed it that way. i'd rather see them as two different units, sure add the stealth one in with stealth but don't make the other one go obsolete, since the "upgrade" is definitely not better for all purposes in every situation.

so i just have to try to remember to make a stockpile of destroyers before i learn stealth. my privateers i turn into destroyers and not stealths so far. oh i'm going way off the original topic i'll hush now.

It certainly has some salty phrases coming out of my mouth.

*giggle* i've never heard it put quite that way before.

 

[Psyringe]

Next turn, enemy destroyer sails out, pillages fish, then sails back into city. (no effect what-so-ever for the sea patrol key)...

"Sea patrol" is different from the "Intercept" mission for air units. Intercept works in the turn of the attacker. Sea patrol wroks in *your* turn. When it's the respective destroyer's turn to move, he'll look for enemies, and if he sees them, attack them. Since the enemy destroyer is already out of sight again, your destroyer doesn't attack it.

Unless Im missing something about stealth destroyers, then isnt the strongest unit supposed to defend?

As others pointed out already, the game regards stealth units as units that want to stay hidden rather than defend. Hence they are a bad choice as escorts.

Seems like a cheat to me.........

No just some non-obvious rules in a complex game. The AI plays by the same rules (meaning you can do the same to the AI that it did to you), so it's definitely no cheat.

 

[weasel77066]

OK, well Im glad there is no bug or cheating involved. I wasnt aware that stealth worked that way, so I will use my destroyers for escort and stealth units will will strictly for hunting. Ive upgraded just less than half, so I still have some destroyers left.

Also thanks for clearing up the sea patrol.. So the best way to defend a resource is still to park on it a hit sea patrol with a non-stealth unit. (I was trying to cover lines of adjacent fish thinking I would intercept....)

 

[Pariah]

How do you guys explain this?

Asoka has researched physics ahead of me, but the tech trading screen still shows electricity in his "can research" box. Meaning he still doesn't have it, right? And without electricity, he can't have radio.

So how did he manage to complete the Rock & Roll wonder already?!?! That must be an instance of AI cheating.

 

[Roland Johansen]

How do you guys explain this?

Asoka has researched physics ahead of me, but the tech trading screen still shows electricity in his "can research" box. Meaning he still doesn't have it, right? And without electricity, he can't have radio.

So how did he manage to complete the Rock & Roll wonder already?!?! That must be an instance of AI cheating.

The 'can research' column doesn't function properly.

 

[gunter]

The AI doesn't "cheat" really, it's just given bonuses in production, commerce, and pretty much everything else.

 

[azzaman333]

The 'can research' column doesn't function properly.

It functions perfectly fine in this respect, as all the player knows is that Asoka has researched Physics so he is unaware of any tech progress beyond that.

 

[Roland Johansen]

It functions perfectly fine in this respect, as all the player knows is that Asoka has researched Physics so he is unaware of any tech progress beyond that.

In normal English and according to the game rules of civ4, a technology that can be researched is an unknown technology. You can't research a known technology in civ4. So logically people will deduce that the fact that a technology is in the 'can research' column means that the AI doesn't have the technology yet.

Now I know the 'can research' column doesn't work like that. It actually means something like: we don't have all the prerequisites for this technology, but the AI has or the AI hasn't researched this technology yet. But it's wrong to name such a column 'can research' or it is wrong to allow such a different class of technologies to be placed under the column name 'can research'.

I thus concluded: the 'can research' column doesn't function properly. Pariah's complaint has nothing to do with AI cheating.

 

[Pariah]

But if the AI already had electricity and radio, wouldn't those techs show up in the Will Trade / Won't Trade / Can't Trade columns?

 

[Roland Johansen]

But if the AI already had electricity and radio, wouldn't those techs show up in the Will Trade / Won't Trade / Can't Trade columns?

That depends on whether you actually have the prerequisites. You can't trade for a technology for which you don't have the prerequisites. In this case, you can't trade for electricity before you have physics. You don't even know that the opponent has that technology, so you sure as hell can't trade for it.

 

[SlightlyMad]

A more accurate name for the "can research" column is probably "could be researching."