AI Cheats

[Dennis_JM]

Hi All,
Although I don't post I have learned much from those who do.
But today I wanted to relate an experience I had yesterday--This to give solace to those who are frustrated by being slapped down by the AI in a manner that can only be described as highly unlikely.
Apparently, when you start to pull ahead sufficiently the AI will cheat rather than have the balance of the game be a foregone conclusion and complete bore. And while I appreciate the intent, the result, at least for me, is to make playing additional games uncertain.
What happened was that I was just beginning to take over when my neighbor, who had been on pleased terms, suddenly attacked with a massive wave of troops that I had not known he possessed (spies).
This was just too much, as I knew that even if I managed to survive the onslaught my economy would be trashed to the point where another civ would take over.
What I did was to use the World Builder to place one invincible defender in each of the three cities that would bear the brunt of the attack. What I discovered was that the AI kept spamming units apparently without end. In each turn more units (by twice) were spammed than he had cities to spam them from.
Apparently, once the directive was initiated the AI would not stop until I was taken down a peg or two. Had I taken the hits it would have presumably stopped. But since it could not win it just kept sending units to certain annihilation, though the random events popup begged for a cease fire based on “mercy” shown by troops (not in this game).
The only way I was able to stop this was to again use the World Builder to place Modern Armor at the gates of his cities, which were quickly taken—this to examine his production capabilities. What I found was a moderately protected group of cites that had not drained past production and had no apparent way to produce the units that appeared.
As a final gambit, the AI blew up a mine and a town (random event).
Dennis

 

[sabo]

I don't use WB, I think I'd be afraid of what I would see , I have seen AI barbs walk right by an AI oppponent though just to attack me, even when the AI opponent would be the better choice

 

[ezwip]

I have never had that happen what difficulty are you playing?

 

[jeffreyac]

You probably know and checked for this, but there is a civic that would allow a civ to draft up to 2 units per city, isn't there? I confess, I don't draft often, so I dont know - it just struck me as a possibility after reading the 'too many units by a factor of 2' comment, and seemed to fit the facts - because, as far as I know, many here who have worked with the coding have said there isn't any such cheats for the AI during the game (the cheats for the AI being instead bonuses to production/economy, and extra starting units and techs...)

Of course, I could be totally wrong...

 

[JujuLautre]

The AI does not "cheat". At least not in the kind of way you describe it.

 

[Willem]

There's no way that the AI can just materialize units out of thin air. As mentioned the Nationhood civic allows you to draft not 2 but 3 units per turn. The AI has to play by the same rules as the humans when it comes to unit production, except for the bonuses they get at higher levels. Which are clearly spelled out in the CIV4HandicapInfo.xml file. This game has gone through extensive testing by various people looking for cheats and none have ever been found.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I'm afraid the only logical explanation is that your recollection of events is inaccurate, or your assumptions were wrong. If you can provide the save before the war we'd be happy to check the worldbuilder each turn and see where the units are coming from.

The most likely situation is that you did not know the true extent of your enemy's military forces and what you thought were units being spammed from cities were in fact units coming from other parts of the empire (or world).

There has never to this date been any proof of the AI cheating in the way you describe. The AI at higher difficulties gets significant production bonuses, making it able to spam units quickly even with little tiles worked. Could this account for your observations?

 

[Formoor]

Its not something new that the AI cheats (It is supposed to - the AI cheats more at each difficulty level, and I'm not talking about the handicap) The most seeable cheat is slavery in my opinion (I'm a marathon player so it may be possible on normal/epic), for instance, a city that whips a unit each turn for 2-3 turns loosing only 1 or no population a whip, or when the cultural border of an AI city expands quicker then your even if they are not cultural, or how an AI can have 1500 gold in 500BC with 5 cities. But that is the magic of Civilization.

 

[Dennis_JM]

Unfortunately, I didn’t document the incident. And there is the possibility that distant cities where I didn’t have my spies could possibly have had a horde of units—I doubt it. I would be glad to know that what happened was indeed impossible. Because the result of this suspicion, as least for me, is that I have no interest in playing again whether the cheat is for me or against me.
I hate to spoil a good game but will document the next such occurrence, allowing that, for now at least, I may be wrong. I would like that to be the case.
My suggestion is for anyone who feels this may be a problem to rerun from the last save and use World Builder (control W) to change the outcome and see what adding a few ringers of your own does to the opposition’s forces.

 

[Roland Johansen]

Its not something new that the AI cheats (It is supposed to - the AI cheats more at each difficulty level, and I'm not talking about the handicap) The most seeable cheat is slavery in my opinion (I'm a marathon player so it may be possible on normal/epic), for instance, a city that whips a unit each turn for 2-3 turns loosing only 1 or no population a whip, or when the cultural border of an AI city expands quicker then your even if they are not cultural, or how an AI can have 1500 gold in 500BC with 5 cities. But that is the magic of Civilization.

I'm sure that you have several savegames that can clearly show these AI cheats without any doubt because otherwise you'd never think about making such claims.

Could you please provide these savegames with exact steps of how to reproduce these instances of AI cheating? Please tell us exactly where to look and what instances of AI cheating occur at which moments. This way we are able to reproduce these instances of AI cheating and clearly prove that they exist. We have been trying to find these instances of AI cheating for more than 3 years now and haven't been able to find them, so we're very grateful for any help.

Thanks.

 

[Willem]

for instance, a city that whips a unit each turn for 2-3 turns loosing only 1 or no population a whip,

Most early units only make you lose 1 citizen, so how is this unusual?

...or when the cultural border of an AI city expands quicker then your even if they are not cultural,

They're called Monuments.

or how an AI can have 1500 gold in 500BC with 5 cities.

That would be a stockpile after popping a bunch of goody huts.

 

[phungus420]

The only AI cheats are:
1)The AI gets line of sight to all possible places any of it's units can move. This is the most true cheat, but it's to compensate for the fact the AI has no memory, it litteraly does everything spur of the moment, and so can't track down fleeing enemies, so this was done mainly to compensate.

2)The AI get's handicap type boneses, depending on difficulty level.
-This includes:
Free starting techs (Monarch & above--Wich leads to the AI getting free archers at monarch & above instead of warriors, the AI gets no free techs at Prince or below)
-Free starting units (Emperor & above).
-Reduction in unit upgrade cost
-*Production bonuses
-*Happiness Bonues
-*Maintenance bonuses
-*Tech Cost bonuses
-*Combat Bonuses vs Barbarians

*These slide with the difficulty. The greater the difficulty the greater the bonus. Basically at Monarch difficulty the AI gets the same level of bonuses a human player does playing Chieftan. At Emperor & above the AI city maintance costs are so low the AI can just city spam, allowing the AI to get rediculous amounts of money and a large empire where the Human players economy is still being strangled. Personally with all the bonuses the AI starts racking up, I'm surprised anyone can play Immortal or Diety level games, but some players need the AI to get these huge bonuses in order to have a challenge.


Anyway, the Cheating as described by the OP and Formoor does not exist. You can look in the SDK if you want, no such "free unit" or "Bonus whipping" code exists. The AI gets no such cheats, it simply does not exist. Though the Bonus Whipping can apear to exist, as the AI gets bonuses to it's production at the higher levels, so that I believe at Emperor level 1 whipped pop point gives the AI double the hammers (or rather the build queue is reduced to half cost, so each hammer goes twice as far).

 

[Peteyboy]

Hmmmm my main suggestion to Dennis & Formoor is to play more and get used to using the civics to a better effect, as much of the above just comes from a lack of know-how regarding the game and its mechanics - When I first started playing all the above points seemed to show the computer having excessive advantages - but you'll soon learn - In reality with Nationhood you can create 10-15 units per turn dependant on cities, Whipping helps too, and I'd seriously doubt you could see everywhere with spies somehow... Also if you had such spy supremacy surely you'd have seen on the demographics that your supposed power superiority wasn't so great - implying you shouldnt have gone to war (and if the computer is DOWing you - its gonna have something significant!) Over time you'll get used to it - took me several attempts to beat Prince, and i'm now a competent Monarch player challenging Emperor - and still gaining knowledge with each game. The game does take time - it seems a shame you want to write off a game because you have come across a stumbling block - one which there are a whole host of people explaining where you're going wrong. Just reduce the level of difficulty if you constantly struggle and build up confidence and ability over time - and remember there is no quick fix to the game, and the fun of Civ 4 in many ways is that you find new challenges all the time.


Formoor - an additional point regarding the computer having excess cash which is not to be ignored is if a wonder has just been built - often the next turn the computer has been given gold for production, so there is a whole host of reasons it may have a lot of gold (also remember razing barb cities can be 'profitable' early on.

 

[jeffreyac]

The only AI cheats are:
1)The AI gets line of sight to all possible places any of it's units can move. This is the most true cheat, but it's to compensate for the fact the AI has no memory, it litteraly does everything spur of the moment, and so can't track down fleeing enemies, so this was done mainly to compensate.

I'm so glad you said this. This used to drive me nuts, in that I felt the AI could see the whole world all the time, and it drove me absolutely nuts to have my one weak unit steamrollered, because the AI 'magically' knew it was there.

Now, though, it makes much more sense - after all, I wouldn't want the AI to not be able to make reasonable moves (like chasing my fleeing privateers!) just because it has to act spur of the moment - so I think you singlehandedly just stopped me from being frustrated next time this happens. I'll just shrug, and realize it's beter than the alternative.


So, hey, have a cookie! You just increased my Civ enjoyment...

 

[Xellos-_^]

the AI probably has that stack of doom somewhere already and i had similar situtation where the AI will just attack out of no-where.

I had one game instance a AI ask to join it in a war and i did, 3 turns later the same Ai declare war on me.

i also had peter in my current declare war on me because he was bored and i had 2 double his military strenght at the time.

i think the AI are program to declare war on you if your score is higher then the AI by a certain amount.

you just have to keep a eye on it and prepare with a some military units ready.

 

[r_rolo1]

No, the AI is programmed to choose easy pickings. Humans with high score are normally easy pickings, because that score is normally from wonders and if you are making wonders , you're not making a army.

There is one more thing that the AI has: it starts with 10 extra hammers in the capital city queue. Probably to help avoiding "lone warrior takes them all" scenarios in small maps....

P.S About visibility. land units actually see more than their operational range, to compensate for roads. A 1 move AI land unit normally can see , for warring effects , 6 tiles away IIRC

 

[MkLh]

2)The AI get's handicap type boneses, depending on difficulty level.
-This includes:
Free starting techs (Monarch & above--Wich leads to the AI getting free archers at monarch & above instead of warriors, the AI gets no free techs at Prince or below)
-Free starting units (Emperor & above).
-Reduction in unit upgrade cost
-*Production bonuses
-*Happiness Bonues
-*Maintenance bonuses
-*Tech Cost bonuses
-*Combat Bonuses vs Barbarians

*These slide with the difficulty. The greater the difficulty the greater the bonus. Basically at Monarch difficulty the AI gets the same level of bonuses a human player does playing Chieftan. At Emperor & above the AI city maintance costs are so low the AI can just city spam, allowing the AI to get rediculous amounts of money and a large empire where the Human players economy is still being strangled. Personally with all the bonuses the AI starts racking up, I'm surprised anyone can play Immortal or Diety level games, but some players need the AI to get these huge bonuses in order to have a challenge.

AIs don't get happy bonuses at any level. Likely they don't get city maintenance bonuses either (instead human player cities cost more in higher levels). They get increasing bonuses in city growth, civic maintenance, training units, constructing buildings (except world wonders), war weariness, unit costs, per ear modifiers and advanced start points. AI unit upgrading & supply costs are 0.5 in every level so they don't rise at all from Settler to Deity. And AI inflation rate is 0.8 in every level above Chieftain.

 

[Cryptoanarchist]

Unfortunately, I didn’t document the incident. And there is the possibility that distant cities where I didn’t have my spies could possibly have had a horde of units—I doubt it.

Did you have visibility everywhere? The AI could have had a massive stack about to/currently/just finished invading another AI. Recently I watched ragnar trek across my lands to attack the french and then quickly double back from france when I stabbed him in the back

Also I play marathon/monarch and a pleased Gengis dropped a 62 unit strong stack on my doorstep in 1200 AD*. The AI can have alot of units...

*reloaded the game and counted

Oh and to explain the attack while on pleased terms thing in your original post, each leader has a certain threshold before they wont attack. Most are pleased, some are friendly while I believe Gengis Khan, Montezuma and possibly Alexander (I can't remember) will attack you regardless. Though if you have a decent army they tend to look for someone they dislike more first.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

No, the AI is programmed to choose easy pickings. Humans with high score are normally easy pickings, because that score is normally from wonders and if you are making wonders , you're not making a army.

There is one more thing that the AI has: it starts with 10 extra hammers in the capital city queue. Probably to help avoiding "lone warrior takes them all" scenarios in small maps....

P.S About visibility. land units actually see more than their operational range, to compensate for roads. A 1 move AI land unit normally can see , for warring effects , 6 tiles away IIRC

Units also get line of sight for their entire movement range possible. So that knight knows your worker 2 tiles in on your border is there and will attack it, and that damaged destroyer will find your wounded transport in the fog no matter where it is, if it's within destroyer movement range.

 

[Dennis_JM]

As I said in my last post, I didn’t save the game to reproduce exactly what went on. Therefore I readily acknowledged that I could have made a mistake, though I really couldn’t see how. Since then I have played similar situations from Monarch on down. Just pull ahead sufficiently and the AI cheats to even the score. (Admittedly, I had to use the world builder sometimes on monarch to gain an unfair advantage for the test)
Then deconstruct the enemy civ and see if it was in any way likely that what happened could within the bounds of probability. For instance, in one game I was deconstructing one of the enemy cities defended by LB’s and axes. On two separate occasions, an axe beat a full strength modern armor unit!? The odds are of course, 99.9 so it could possibly happen once, but twice?? The odds are literally a million to one.
However, I see that most of the highly experienced players doubt this. They could be right. But I know for myself that the possibility that Sid is toying with me drained interest in the game totally. So, I would suggest caution before testing the fairness of an excellent game for yourself. It’s regrettable to spend a great many hours with a game and then find out it has all the cards and they’re marked. It was not my intention to reveal this but to provide solace for those who have been frustrated by the game. It isn’t you; you never had a chance unless the AI lets you win. If you doubt this just up the level.