AI Cheats

Did the axe beat two separate modern armors or did you try it and reload and try it again?

I ask becuase by default the random seed is set once at the start of the game, so reloading will not change the outcome of battles. You have to start a custom game and check the box to regen random seed or something like that if you want the ability to reload when the odds don't go your way.

If you want to quiet the doubters just post any save from your 'recent situations.' We will all load it up and get the same results as you, right?
 
On two separate occasions, an axe beat a full strength modern armor unit!? The odds are of course, 99.9 so it could possibly happen once, but twice?? The odds are literally a million to one.

This is not the way that probability works. You can't simply mention two bad results in a set of turns which both have a 1/1000 chance of occurring and then say that the chance that they both happen is 1/1000000.

It is correct that the chance that exactly that would happen is 1/1000000. However, many other unlikely combinations of bad results could have occurred which you also would have stored in memory as very unlikely. The collection of all of these unlikely events that could have happened during several games is extremely large. The chance that one of them would happen is actually pretty high.

This is just the way that the human mind works. It tries to find patterns. So if elements that should be unlikely still happen, then the mind stores them. And when several of such events were to happen in a row, then you will notice that. You will see that pattern. But it doesn't mean that there is something wrong with the odds. There are many unlikely things that could occur and thus it is only a matter of time until you encounter one of these unlikely events.

The combat calculation in civ4 has undergone statistical analysis and it is proven to not be biased against the human player. The distribution of odds behaves exactly as it should.
 
The combat calculation in civ4 has undergone statistical analysis and it is proven to not be biased against the human player. The distribution of odds behaves exactly as it should.

It *IS* biased, but only because the AI gets such a massive discount on troops. You have far more dice rolls at 70% attacking to fail on than the AI :lol:. That's just how it is when you attack 20 troops rather than 10...your odds of losing multiple 70% battles are that much higher.

Fight 1000 battles/game and you're going to see something nonsensical in more games than not!

The worst is early on though, when 20% odds for that barb unit attacking yours can really hurt, because the barbs keep getting freebies. The worst by far is galleys, which have > 30% odds no matter what you do, and will come en masse' on higher difficulties with some starts...completely unstoppable in a reasonable time frame.

I once lost a full health archer to a 1.6 str warrior attacking across a river. I also lost 2 of my next 4 battlers vs barbs, all at well over 90% odds in my favor...probably one of the least probable exchanges I've ever seen. I lost some livestock that game, but it was an AP game so I still won it easily (note that events cause far more damage than barbs and the RNG can have a lot of fun with them).
 
Since then I have played similar situations from Monarch on down. Just pull ahead sufficiently and the AI cheats to even the score.

Let me get this straight...
1) you posted a random anecdote tainted by confirmation bias about the AI cheating
2) everyone assured you that the civ AI had been examined, explained a few mechanics and offered to look at the saved games you might post to help explain
3) you post more complaints BUT NO SAVED GAMES!?!?!?

Post the saved games or stop wasting our time. Your next anecdotal post without saved games will be reported.

AI unit upgrading & supply costs are 0.5 in every level so they don't rise at all from Settler to Deity. And AI inflation rate is 0.8 in every level above Chieftain.

I just looked in my XML and I have to disagree with the above quote.

XML\GameInfo\CIV4HandicapInfo.xml

at noble:
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>35</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>30</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
<iAIInflationPercent>70</iAIInflationPercent>

at deity:
<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>10</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>5</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
<iAIInflationPercent>20</iAIInflationPercent>


(Am I using the wrong version or something?)
 
Then deconstruct the enemy civ and see if it was in any way likely that what happened could within the bounds of probability. For instance, in one game I was deconstructing one of the enemy cities defended by LB’s and axes. On two separate occasions, an axe beat a full strength modern armor unit!? The odds are of course, 99.9 so it could possibly happen once, but twice?? The odds are literally a million to one.

Even though the most likely explanation for this was that you reloaded the game to try the battle again (hence getting exactly the same result due to the preserved random seed) as mentioned earlier, losing 2 99.9% battles in a row may be slightly more likely than for a pure random number generator (in fact is is probably less likely). The pseudo random number generator used by the game cannot be perfect - no PRNG can be - and as a result streaks could be very slightly more likely. However, there is no way there can be any bias that depends on whether the player is human or AI.

The combat calculation in civ4 has undergone statistical analysis and it is proven to not be biased against the human player. The distribution of odds behaves exactly as it should.

It *IS* biased, but only because the AI gets such a massive discount on troops. You have far more dice rolls at 70% attacking to fail on than the AI :lol:. That's just how it is when you attack 20 troops rather than 10...your odds of losing multiple 70% battles are that much higher.

That's not the same as bias. If you roll a 6-sided die that has only the numbers 4, 5 and 6 on it, just because the numbers are different from the standard 1to6 die doesn't mean it is biased. Bias is when certain outcomes are made more likely than one should reasonably expect. If you're rolling an unusual die you have to change what outcomes you expect. ;)

The worst is early on though, when 20% odds for that barb unit attacking yours can really hurt, because the barbs keep getting freebies. The worst by far is galleys, which have > 30% odds no matter what you do, and will come en masse' on higher difficulties with some starts...completely unstoppable in a reasonable time frame.

What do you mean by barbs getting freebies? And where are you getting the 30% odds for galleys? These sound like numbers that are completely explained by combat mechanics.

In fact, on Prince and lower, when you still have free wins vs barbs remaining, the odds calculator lies to you by under-estimating your odds vs. barbs, making it biased in the human's favour. It's funny that I have never ever seen anyone complain about the RNG when playing at lower levels! :lol: So many players must have won absurbly unlikely battles vs. barbs only because they still had free wins left.
 
No, the AI is programmed to choose easy pickings. Humans with high score are normally easy pickings, because that score is normally from wonders and if you are making wonders , you're not making a army.

There is one more thing that the AI has: it starts with 10 extra hammers in the capital city queue. Probably to help avoiding "lone warrior takes them all" scenarios in small maps....

P.S About visibility. land units actually see more than their operational range, to compensate for roads. A 1 move AI land unit normally can see , for warring effects , 6 tiles away IIRC

in my recent game peter declare on me even through i was more advance and had more troops because he was bored. After i destroy a few of his units he offered to capitulate.
 
That's not the same as bias. If you roll a 6-sided die that has only the numbers 4, 5 and 6 on it, just because the numbers are different from the standard 1to6 die doesn't mean it is biased. Bias is when certain outcomes are made more likely than one should reasonably expect. If you're rolling an unusual die you have to change what outcomes you expect.

Precious few people understand absolutely everything about how the dice is weighted though, including me ;).

I had a good grasp of how the RNG acts in most cases. I still don't 100% understand things like the "dagger" strategy and why RTT doesn't work for AI to AI.
 
The AI does not cheat. It cannot cheat. If it could (well enough to be consistent and get away with it), the code size of the game would not fit on the three CDs the game ships with. Even I know something that rudimentary about computer programming.

For each and every time I've had a complaint that the AI has been unfair, or that I've felt it had an unfair advantage (or "cheated"), it's been due to an error on my part, or my own lack of attention to (or experience with) the game. (Or an imperfect RNG)

Humans tend to have selective and imperfect memory. It's a proven fact that we think that we remember patterns and occurrences that form exaggerated relationships to each other which are not valid. I invite you to consult any reputable text on psychology for further information. That is something I do know about.
 
A few points:

I "cheat" against the AI = I am smarter and know how to exploit advantages I have learned from multiple experiences. Therefore, I have reached a level that I am in the process of being 2 for 2 in wins on Immortal level. I don't use WB. I can free think and exploit weaknesses of the computer programming.

I have experienced situations in life where I couldn't explain how an opponent was so GD lucky and ALWAYS won! (especially in strategic card games). I initially believed that this person was so ridiculously LUCKY! Luck is nothing more than a manifestation of minimal chance barely tipping the advantage to a superior strategy.

Bottom line: It is possible you think you are a better player than you really are and you really do not have the best strategy. (This was, me one year ago!) Read all the strategy guides, move up 1 to 2 levels and follow the walkthroughs!

I admit I get PO'd when my battleship attacks a wounded destroyer and loses, but it happens. This is luck, not strategy... but you could argue that if you don't have >95% chance of winning a battle, this is bad strategy for Ci IV. My philosophy--sack up! and attack!
 
Precious few people understand absolutely everything about how the dice is weighted though, including me ;).

I had a good grasp of how the RNG acts in most cases. I still don't 100% understand things like the "dagger" strategy and why RTT doesn't work for AI to AI.

Hmm I should have said the actual combat calculations are not biased, as Roland said, but the typical battles fought by players don't necessarily represent a broad test of the RNG.

It should be noted, when you lose 3 high odds battles in a row, it is not a streak of 3 bad rolls but in fact a streak of maybe 15 or so bad rolls out of maybe 20. Each battle itself is not a dice roll but each combat round fought in each battle is a single call of the RNG (dice roll). So losing three battles in a row might be a matter of LLWLWWLLLWWWLLWLLLWLLWWL where W=win, L=loss and these separate rounds are maybe W=90% and L=10%. This might result in 3 battles at 99% odds being lost in a row but looking at the individual RNG values returned to cause that result are less remarkable. This is similar but not quite the same as what Roland was speaking of earlier.

TMIT, did you see the other questions I asked you in my previous post?
 
No I didn't :lol:. By freebies I meant freebies. Units appear out of nowhere, that's what was intended :p. Still can be a massive problem.

My problem with barb galleys has nothing to do with combat odds directly, but rather indirectly, as in there's exactly ZERO means to cost effectively defend them during the time period they're a problem, other than abusing their pillage code per DanF's info. And don't tell me get metal casting either. If someone wants to say that, try getting MC on immortal while isolated, before barb galleys screw you...and do it without hurting your long term prospects DRAMATICALLY. It's so bad it's hard to make a case it could possibly balanced - what was fireaxis thinking making them 4x more likely in 3.17, when your best defender vs them is sub 70% on defense?! Couldn't they have just, say, made other barb naval units later on...or possibly added more variety to naval units so it wasn't so ridiculously skewed?

Even ARCHERS on land can get better odds against the best barb land units of the following era! On water? You lose seafood, on some maps, period.
 
lol now I see what you meant by freebies. Seems like you were pointing out the obvious then, eh? :p Anyway, I agree the galleys vs. galleys is a problem. What irks me most is when you build a fishing net then build a galley when you notice a barb on the way. You put the galley to defend the fishing net right away but the barb kills you and pillages the net on the same turn. Then you build another galley as quickly as you can but by then the enemy barb is fully healed as has Combat 1 already (having taken 4XP from killing your prev galley). :( In the end I build 4 galleys and 2 workboats where 1 workboat and 2 galleys would have sufficed - annoying as hell when you're still trying to get your coastal city's granary built.

Basically it's worth making sure you have 2 galleys before you face the first barb galley. Once you have one at combat 1 things become a bit surer.
 
in my recent game peter declare on me even through i was more advance and had more troops because he was bored. After i destroy a few of his units he offered to capitulate.
AI don't declare war because they are bored ... and Peter is not Monty , that will consider attacking a Civ with 195% of his power or Sitting Bull, that will not take distances in account when deciding if a Civ is a good target ( in spite that peter is quite sneaky as well ). I'm pretty sure that what you said is not the whole story
 
(Am I using the wrong version or something?)

I suspect so as these are the numbers I get for Diety:

<iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
<iAIUnitUpgradePercent>50</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
<iAIInflationPercent>80</iAIInflationPercent>

You're possibly looking at the Civ values, the handicaps were changed quite a bit with BtS when the AI improved.
 
Unfortunately, I didn’t document the incident.

Blah, blah, blah...

I wish I had a nickle for every time some newbie screamed "The AI cheats!" and yet never bothers to provide any proof whatsoever of his ridiculous claim.

Sigh...
 
um... I get pissed when a 99% battle is lost, but if I didn't use spies and open borders scouting to check the status of my neighbors and one aggressive one decided to attack me... the fault is my own. If the AI programming checks on victory conditions or what not and sees that you are going to win unless challenged, it is more than willing (programmed) to devote the entirety of its military to stopping you. Just think about AP or UN resolutions. If an AI at war is going to be forced to stop and it isn't in the cards, they will REFUSE until their cities are population 1 each. I've seen this happen and I know some of you have too.

Better preparation makes the WB unnecessary.
 
AI don't declare war because they are bored ... and Peter is not Monty , that will consider attacking a Civ with 195% of his power or Sitting Bull, that will not take distances in account when deciding if a Civ is a good target ( in spite that peter is quite sneaky as well ). I'm pretty sure that what you said is not the whole story

that was the reason the AI gave me. Maybe there was another reason but i that was the one the AI gave me.

i had just finish off alex, our relationship was on please, we share the same religion, he declare war on me once before but i used the AP to stop it while i took out Alex. At that point in the game i had tanks and destroyers and all peter had were rifleman, calvary and ship of the line.
 
for all you wanna be programmers out there... Who probably think you know enough about code to say that and i quote "if the AI did cheat the code wouldnt fit on 3 disks"


you are full of crap... 3 of my buddies and i play on a consistent basis.. one thing we noticed is... combat odds dont mean squat when you attack the AI..

Ive attacked AI warriors in a desert with INFANTRY and lost. 99.9% that would be a 1 in 1000 chance of the warrior winning... its happened enough that i dont even look at the odds anymore.

Case in point... During our last MP game David and conway were in a 3 way war with me and my vassal Asoka... Even though Asoka only had longbowmen and knights.. his knights were kicking the crap out of tanks... now folks.. come on .. a 28 strength unit with 10% and 20% strength bonuses versus a knight that gets no defensive bonuses... and 1 knight actually managed to kill 3 tanks... this is not only ridiculous it shows me the AI cheats.

another case in point in the same game... I gave Asoka flight because david and conway decided to start bombing my cities and my garrison of 2 fighters in each city wasnt cutting it.. now asoka has emancipation frees speech etc... he doesnt even have the nationalism technology (why because i didnt give it to him) the VERY NEXT turn asoka has 3 fighters in every city... now he only has 10 cities.. and he has just increased his fighter count from 0 to 30.... how are you programming geniuses gonna explain to me and others that the AI isnt a cheating bastard when they win on combat odds of .01% in their favor and they spam units like no other... keep in mind we were playing on noble level.. so there is no way there was an automatic bonus for the AI.. they cheat enough we dont need to be giving them free bonuses too.

Moderator Action: Don't flame other posters
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
for all you wanna be programmers out there... Who probably think you know enough about code to say that and i quote "if the AI did cheat the code wouldnt fit on 3 disks"

Yeah this is nonsense (EDIT: sorry Lemon ;)), code is very small compared to data. I have been a pro games programmer for 14 years.

But the AI still doesn't cheat wrt combat odds ;)
 
for all you wanna be programmers out there... Who probably think you know enough about code to say that and i quote "if the AI did cheat the code wouldnt fit on 3 disks"


you are full of crap... 3 of my buddies and i play on a consistent basis.. one thing we noticed is... combat odds dont mean squat when you attack the AI..

Ive attacked AI warriors in a desert with INFANTRY and lost. 99.9% that would be a 1 in 1000 chance of the warrior winning... its happened enough that i dont even look at the odds anymore.

Case in point... During our last MP game David and conway were in a 3 way war with me and my vassal Asoka... Even though Asoka only had longbowmen and knights.. his knights were kicking the crap out of tanks... now folks.. come on .. a 28 strength unit with 10% and 20% strength bonuses versus a knight that gets no defensive bonuses... and 1 knight actually managed to kill 3 tanks... this is not only ridiculous it shows me the AI cheats.

another case in point in the same game... I gave Asoka flight because david and conway decided to start bombing my cities and my garrison of 2 fighters in each city wasnt cutting it.. now asoka has emancipation frees speech etc... he doesnt even have the nationalism technology (why because i didnt give it to him) the VERY NEXT turn asoka has 3 fighters in every city... now he only has 10 cities.. and he has just increased his fighter count from 0 to 30.... how are you programming geniuses gonna explain to me and others that the AI isnt a cheating bastard when they win on combat odds of .01% in their favor and they spam units like no other... keep in mind we were playing on noble level.. so there is no way there was an automatic bonus for the AI.. they cheat enough we dont need to be giving them free bonuses too.

1st, are you a programmer?

2nd, Asoka probably upgraded his airships to fighters.

3rd, if you fight 1000 99.9% battles, you will lose one 99.9% battle and you'll remember that one lost battle.
 
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