AI tech(-trading?) on Deity

[BornInCantaloup]

Got it :
@Minimum percentage of trade value that this player will accept :

Note: in the original BtS AI this value was not a variable, the threshold was 2/3 for all AI trades.

Source.
Maybe some multipliers are involved, based on diplo stance and position in the scoreboard.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

AIs will gift techs to "struggling" humans - very noticeable in Deity OCC. Not sure if they also gift to AIs in the same way.


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[Seraiel]

@ Seraiel :
You're looking to know the sort of discounts the AIs get when they trade with each other.
Can't help you, there. Did a quick search, found nothing.
The sequence of what happened with Hattie is pretty clear to me, though, and I don't find it outrageous. It's always easier to catch up than it is to tech ahead.
Imho, she just could 2-turn a tech like Monarchy. Are you sure she couldn't trade for Calendar ? What about her shrine, does she have it, yet ?

Finally, I don't know if AIs can gift techs to each other.
I would tend to think they don't but maybe they do

2-turning Monarchy was impossible for every AI on that map at that time. Even on Normal speed, this would already be ridiculous, but this is Epic. Hatty also had no religion she founded herself, so no shrine possible.

Would you plz describe the sequence in detail? To me it's not clear how an AI can catch up 6 techs in 2 or 3T. Plz be realistic, researching a tech at that time took Gandhi about 8-10T, Hatty is slower than Gandhi.

 

[Seraiel]

Got it :
@Minimum percentage of trade value that this player will accept :


Source.
Maybe some multipliers are involved, based on diplo stance and position in the scoreboard.

So AIs are willing to trade for 0.67% of the trade-value while humans would need to pay more than 1.3 times as much, resulting basically in techs being twice as expensive for humans than for AIs, and this only regards trading, this doesn't regard research where AI already got all those crazy other Deity bonuses.

This is really bad programming from the CIV-DEVs. What probably happened, was, that Hatty continously traded for two techs while offering one, but it's still not 100% clear to me.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Would you plz describe the sequence in detail?

I can try that. The 925 BC tech trade screen would help.


I hadn't realized this is Epic speed.
Anyway, you gifted 2 techs to Hattie, she got 2 trades and completed research of a tech.
Only 1 additional tech to account for. We also know she got fail gold.

 

[TheSunIsDark]

AIs can (and sometimes do) gift techs. I've only had one gifted to me (Assembly Line from Gandhi), after I fell far behind in tech. I actually won that game, after beelining Mass Media for Diplomatic victory.

 

[Seraiel]

I can try that. The 925 BC tech trade screen would help.


I hadn't realized this is Epic speed.
Anyway, you gifted 2 techs to Hattie, she got 2 trades and completed research of a tech.
Only 1 additional tech to account for. We also know she got fail gold.

Nothing on the 925 AD screenshot is different from the 900 AD one.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

This is really bad programming from the CIV-DEVs.

I disagree, Deity is meant to be really, really hard - you're not meant to be able to launch spaceships in 6xx AD

 

[Seraiel]

I disagree, Deity is meant to be really, really hard - you're not meant to be able to launch spaceships in 6xx AD

6xx AD Spaceships are because AI is unable to conduct war and because all advanced techs are too cheap (I 1-turned Fusion in my last game ) . Isolating an AI should be possible, and it should not require giving all techs to all other AIs always so that 0 trades are possible. A good AI would have seen that Hatty is backwards and would have attacked her instead of trading all techs to her.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

If the tech status is the same in 925 and 900 BC, then

Option 1 :
What I can see is that Hattie :
- trades Calendar to Liz for HBR (900 BC)
- self-researches Construction (875 BC)
- trades Construction (+ some gold) to Brennus for Monarchy and Currency (850 BC)


Option 2 :
Hattie :
- trades Calendar to Liz for HBR (900 BC)
- buys Construction with treasure + Pyramids failgold (875 BC)
- researches Monarchy/Currency and trades Construction to Brennus for the other (850 BC)


Note : the tech trade screen doesn't show all of Hatshepsut's gold, it only shows what she is willing to trade the human player.

 

[Seraiel]

Note : the tech trade screen doesn't show all of Hatshepsut's gold, it only shows what she is willing to trade the human player.

How many times do people want to repeat this in this thread?

 

[Ghpstage]

Research Tachy did into the workings of AI-AI resource trades (where the resources value has little to no impact at all!) suggests that radical departure from the rules we trade with AIs under is quite likely.

There is the possibility that the hidden gold is far more than you might think, if you have received a lot of gold for her (though it doesn't sound like its the case here), or if you haven't known her long, or if she has very low pop and few cities then the cap placed on the visible gold can often be be extremely low. In practice they can hide anything from all of their gold to none of it at all.

This question won't really be solved until someone finds and makes sense of all the relevant code.
Number crunching to work out the maximum discounts from all but one civ having a tech, and taking into account the additional 2/3rds multiplier Karadoc mentions may be enough if it turns out to be ridiculously low, but if not then looking into how AIs propose deals and accept AI-AI proposals work will be required.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Number crunching to work out the maximum discounts from all but one civ having a tech, and taking into account the additional 2/3rds multiplier Karadoc mentions may be enough if it turns out to be ridiculously low, but if not then looking into how AIs propose deals and accept AI-AI proposals work will be required.

This one's fairly simple.

Spoiler :

Construction on Standard size, Epic speed costs 886 beakers.
6 rival teams know the tech, that's a 30% decrease in trade value.
Then the minimum to offer is 2/3 of the above :

886 / 1,3 / 3*2 = 454 beakers or equivalent.
Hattie could buy Construction for 454 gold on 875 BC.

Buying Monarchy would be cheaper. The tech costs 760 base beakers and 7 teams had it.
760 / 1,35 / 3*2 = 375 beakers or equivalent.
Hattie could buy Monarchy for 375 gold on 850 BC.

The most surprising thing, here (at least to me), isn't the nature of the deals but rather their frequency.
I suppose the chances that Hattie would be offered deals can only increase when the other AIs are at tech parity.
(e.g. Elizabeth could only get Calendar from Roosevelt or Hatshepsut --> 50% chance she gets it from Hattie.)
(e.g. Hattie was the only possible trade partner for Brennus.)
(e.g. any AI could attempt to sell her a tech that all others have.)

There may be 2 or 3 deals, here (depends whether she got Monarchy+Currency as a bundle or not).
So maybe she offered 1 trade and got offered 2. Maybe it's 1/1, maybe it's 0/2.

 

[Ghpstage]

The most surprising thing, here (at least to me), isn't the nature of the deals but rather their frequency.
I suppose the chances that Hattie would be offered deals can only increase when the other AIs are at tech parity.
(e.g. Elizabeth could only get Calendar from Roosevelt or Hatshepsut --> 50% chance she gets it from Hattie.)
(e.g. Hattie was the only possible trade partner for Brennus.)
(e.g. any AI could attempt to sell her a tech that all others have.)

There may be 2 or 3 deals, here (depends whether she got Monarchy+Currency as a bundle or not).
So maybe she offered 1 trade and got offered 2. Maybe it's 1/1, maybe it's 0/2.

The speed is surprising, but despite my own feeling that this kind of rapid catchup happens more often than it should, I think with one concrete example here RNG weirdness is a satisfactory explanation as it doesn't appear to break any known rules.

Plus i'm more interested in finding out how she paid for it all