Al Gore: Hero or Hypocrite?

[MobBoss]

Well you did attacked someone from the Democratic Party and the Liberal Spectrum just because he bought carbon offsets, what would you expect?

Err...I am not attacking Gore because he 'bought carbon offsets'. I am merely putting the story from ABC news up for debate.

The liberals to chuck tomatoes at Gore and give Bush a ticker tape parade? I don't think so.

Again, the thread isnt about Bush.

Well, its possible right now to get most of our energy from non-polluting sources.

I was under the impression that the majority of our energy in the USA was from coal and oil sources. If not from those two sources, then where is the majority coming from?

Including the use of Nuclear Power (Provided that they are built and operated under strict guidelines). If we didn't waste our time protesting aganst Nuclear Power and devoted more time in researching a safer reactors or researching Fusion Power.

Ah...who do you think spends time protesting nuclear power?

What about OTHER methods, Solar Power is feasible in the American Midwest and the South.

Feasible, but it takes a large amount of area for the return from what I understand. Should get better as tech advances I would think.

 

[MobBoss]

By the way, I do know a family that's covered their roof with solar panels. Over the period of each year, they actually have a net income from selling electricity back to the grid. They also have an electric car. And some fancy thermal thing where they pump water to the roof to be sunheated to warm their house at night.

It was a VERY expensive investment but in 7 years they made it back and now they're making money from it. Obviously not for everyone - they live in the Silicon Valley where it's sunny (more power) and urban (less driving) - but it does prove MobBoss wrong. You can live a pretty green life if you try.

Couple of thoughts. Al Gore isnt making money selling energy back to the grid. Al Gore doesnt have an electric car (that I know of). Al Gore is currently spending a crapload on his energy consumption.

I do agree you can probably live a pretty green life if you try. I dont call having a 30k a year energy bill trying that hard.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Did anyone allready make the funny that Al is using so much energy because he has to keep the internet running from his house?

If not I would like to post that one please

 

[REDY]

Its not so easy as it looks, I wanted hear statement from Al Gore. He is only American politican who is respected by me...

 

[azzaman333]

Al Gore is no better than any other politician. They all claim to want to help humanity, but they never do anything good enough to offset the crap they do.

 

[Pontiuth Pilate]

I am merely putting the story from ABC news up for debate.

It's not a "story," and it's not from ABC, two points you ignored.

It's a "press release," and it was released by some thinktank whose impartial name belies its partisan nature. So far as I can tell, it's never made the news before unleashing this Gore hitpiece.

The point of the article has already been debunked anyway. Please address that? If you have any rebuttal that is.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Again, the thread isnt about Bush.

I better not mention HITLER then
But it would be ok to say support the war by not volunteering for the front lines ? Then it would be ok for Gore to champion globel warmming by making small sacrifices

 

[Goa]

Carlos are you sure about those payback times?


I have figures of (UK):

80 years financial for PV (crystal not amorphous)

14-15 years for carbon. I think this assumes made in China.

Life expectancy of around 20 years (they slowly degrade so this is rough)



Are they including all of the carbon from mining the silicon ore upwards? If you're right I'll have to change my view on it (obviously). I've always been a 'thermal man'.

Hi Xenocrates, could you send me your figures please? I have the same numbers as Carlos, and in a photovoltaiv course I took 2 years ago, the prof who was certainly not a photovoltaic "fanboy" but rather someone who knew very well strengths and weaknesses of photovoltaic gave me about the same numbers. So I would be interested in your figures, and especially I would be interseted in who is publishing them.

PS: Perhaps it's only the figures for GB, and without sun, PV is indeed not very efficient

 

[El_Machinae]

Come on...you cant honestly believe that...Not all of Gores energy consumption is green.

I dont think this is deliberate misinformation at all, but just some of the simple facts surrounding Al Gore himself.

Yes it is; Gore is offsetting his bill with carbon purchases. Even if one doesn't understand the system, doesn't mean that Gore's using the system is stupid.

The OP is a hitpiece, and apparently it's had some success. You'd think that people who've been deliberately misinformed would be offended that they were used thusly.

 

[carlosMM]

The OP is a hitpiece, and apparently it's had some success. You'd think that people who've been deliberately misinformed would be offended that they were used thusly.

Why should they, if it fits their political view? Rather, use the cheap 'gun' it provides to spread the lie further, advance your party's position! Can you say 'Swift Boat Veterans'? 'Conservapedia'? The list goes on.....

 

[El_Machinae]

Why should they, if it fits their political view?

I would assume that their political distaste for Gore is due to Gore's policies (or desired policies). It's perfectly reasonable to call him on those things.

To aid in the deliberate spreading of lies should leave a distaste in anyone's mouth. It's fundamental to the democratic process that true information reach the consumer, not false information.

 

[carlosMM]

To aid in the deliberate spreading of lies should leave a distaste in anyone's mouth. It's fundamental to the democratic process that true information reach the consumer, not false information.

So what, if you do not care for democracy, but just want to have things your way?

 

[El_Machinae]

So what, if you do not care for democracy, but just want to have things your way?

I continually forget that people don't think in the long-term. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[JollyRoger]

I dont call having a 30k a year energy bill trying that hard.

It seems that some inconvenient truths (that even fit within your narrow parameters of acceptable posting on this thread) presented by many in this thread have not been addressed by you yet and it would be interesting to see your take.

For example, Gore's use is 6 time less than a similary situated high profile user had in 2001. Plus, you have ignored that making "green" choices cause your energy bill to actually be higher.

Do you expect Al Gore to live in a cave and communicate to the rest of the world by banging coded mesages from drums? He is a former Vice President and an advocate of many causes who's residence also doubles as a place where he conducts business with many people - it is just common sense that he will have an energy bill higher than the average consumer.

A little light on the subject from a known-before-yesterday Tennessee group, the Tennessee Valley Authority:

TVA and participating local public power companies, working with input from the environmental community, have created a program called Green Power Switch® to produce electricity from renewable sources and add it to the Tennessee Valley’s power mix.

. . .

Why does green power cost more?
Although renewable sources like sunlight and wind are free, the technology used to capture the energy they produce is still more expensive than traditional power generation methods. However, increased demand may lead to expanded power production capacity and eventually to lower costs.

http://www.tva.com/greenpowerswitch/green_mainfaq.htm

Not a bad site to look at for those who would would prefer to be better informed in their legitimate debate of the issues presented by this thread.

 

[MobBoss]

It's not a "story," and it's not from ABC, two points you ignored.

What part of the ABC News logo are you unable to see just beside the storys headline? Hmmmm?

It's a "press release," and it was released by some thinktank whose impartial name belies its partisan nature. So far as I can tell, it's never made the news before unleashing this Gore hitpiece.

ABC News released it first yesterday....other news outlets have it out today.

The point of the article has already been debunked anyway. Please address that? If you have any rebuttal that is.

No...it hasnt been debunked at all. I would like to know exactly how someone can offset a 30k a year energy bill in Tennesee of all places.

 

[El_Machinae]

No...it hasnt been debunked at all. I would like to know exactly how someone can offset a 30k a year energy bill in Tennesee of all places.

See, now you're asking question, that's a good thing.

He's purchasing carbon offsets. This means that he's hired a service to count his CO2 output, and they're charging him money based on his consumption. They then put this money into subsidising electrical purchases elsewhere in the country, so that that green energy is being bought by other people, instead of coal-fired electricity. (in addition to other things, like green research and carbon sequestering).

The sum total of this is that (after factoring in the money he spends) his family produces less total CO2 than an average family. If he wasn't purchasing the offsets, then people wouldn't be using the Texan windfarms (for example) as much as they are, because they're not priced properly yet.

I think that you should include the following in your OP, so that people can form a more reasoned opinion. This will change the nature of the OP into one that inspires debate. As well, since many people only read the OP, they're not getting the information that Jolly Roger already included. You're not currently bringing forward the knowledge that the $30,000 is green power. Keep in mind, too, that this $30,000 is being paid at a higher rate, because he's capturing the cost of the CO2 production.

This afternoon, ThinkProgress reached Vice President Gore’s office for response to Hannity’s attacks. Here’s what his office told us:

– Gore lives a strict carbon-neutral lifestyle both in his work and private life. That means he tries to reduce his emissions as much as possible, and then purchases carbon offsets for the remaining emissions.

– In his private life, Gore tries to reduce his emissions as much as possible. He drives a hybrid, flies commercially whenever he can, and purchases green power. In the few instances where work has demanded that he travel privately, he purchases carbon offsets for the emissions.

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/16/hannity-gore/

 

[Taliesin]

No...it hasnt been debunked at all. I would like to know exactly how someone can offset a 30k a year energy bill in Tennesee of all places.

Put simply, one offsets the carbon emissions created by a $30K energy bill by paying somebody else to use less emissive energy. Imagine that I'm using coal power, but could be using hydro power if I paid more for it (which I can't afford to do). You, in addition to paying your coal-energy bill, pay me enough so that I can switch to green energy.

This is a gross simplification, of course, because individual consumers don't give each other credits like that, but it's the basic principle of the system.

 

[angeleyes]

The important question is not if Al Gore is a hypocrite or not, it's if he is right or not.

 

[carlosMM]

The important question is not if Al Gore is a hypocrite or not, it's if he is right or not.

which can be answered fairly simply, and with an answer certain people do not want to hear. So instead, they write hitpieces like the one quoted in the OP and try to pull attention away from the important question.

 

[MobBoss]

It seems that some inconvenient truths (that even fit within your narrow parameters of acceptable posting on this thread) presented by many in this thread have not been addressed by you yet and it would be interesting to see your take.

For example, Gore's use is 6 time less than a similary situated high profile user had in 2001. Plus, you have ignored that making "green" choices cause your energy bill to actually be higher.

Do you expect Al Gore to live in a cave and communicate to the rest of the world by banging coded mesages from drums? He is a former Vice President and an advocate of many causes who's residence also doubles as a place where he conducts business with many people - it is just common sense that he will have an energy bill higher than the average consumer.

A little light on the subject from a known-before-yesterday Tennessee group, the Tennessee Valley Authority:



http://www.tva.com/greenpowerswitch/green_mainfaq.htm

Not a bad site to look at for those who would would prefer to be better informed in their legitimate debate of the issues presented by this thread.

All very nice, however, you declined to highlight the following:

How much does Green Power Switch cost?
Green Power Switch is sold to residential consumers in 150-kilowatt-hour blocks (about 12 percent of a typical household’s monthly energy use). Each block adds $4 to the customer’s monthly power bills. Consumers may buy as many blocks as they like. In other parts of the country, residential consumers who participate in green power programs pay an extra $2 to $10 per month for green power. Green Power Switch is also marketed to commercial and industrial consumers, who are asked to buy blocks based on the amount of energy they use.

If a 150 kw/hr block is 12 percent of an average household energy use then to cover an average house totally for green power is only an extra cost of $36. Green power is only supposed to cost a bit more, not a lot more.

Considering that this shows that Green power is only slightly more expensive than usual does not explain Al Gores huge energy bill. It is also not clear as to the extent that Al Gore buys Green Power. To say he buys Green Power could mean he buys a single block (a whopping $4 expense).

Bottom line, from the story, we need he buys offsets and has a few cost saving bulbs in his house (remember the solar panels are planned, so not in place yet). To me, that does not indicate that he is operating in a null carbon footprint at all. To me it means he is making token efforts at energy savings (light bulbs and solar panels are supposed to save you energy, not make it more expensive) not operating at 100% green.