Alarming silence of Firaxis

[Tridus]

Folks, its not up to the developers to do "official" releases about patches. Thats up to marketing and the executive types. They're more interested in hyping up new games, since a new game will make more money then a patch will.

Developers coming around here saying "we're working on a patch, but it may take a while" is probably all they're allowed to do.

Take it for what it is: a sign that the developers care about fans of the game. Getting mad at them for not posting more or in an "official" capacity is a lot like yelling at a cashier in a grocery store because they stopped carrying your favorite brand of cheese doodles: venting frustration at someone who can't do anything about it.

And as far as time goes... I work as a software developer. I'm not in games (thank god), but I have friends who are. Most likely they actually don't have time to read or post here very often. Game developers are severely overworked, and constantly get pushed to meet completely unrealistic schedules set by management.

When you get forced to work 90 hour weeks for a couple months, then have to release something you know wasn't done because marketing says so... then you can get back to me about having ten minutes to post on the forums.

 

[White Elk]

I wouldn't call the patches crippleware. I suspect that a lot of people don't even notice the bugs left.
I'm actually quite happy with the current state of the game (3.13 + bhruic).

In any case, the quality of the patches and some Firaxians posting here (in an inofficial capacity and on their free time) are separate issues to me.

Good, the fact that fan boys like you are still sluts for Civ does bode well for the future of the franchise. And I do still hope for a future for Civ. But unofficial postings mean absolutely nothing... nothing beyond the bravery and sincerity of those that have unofficially posted here on behalf of firaxis. But it means absolutely frackin nothing!!! There is no accountability here for unofficial postings by firaxian fanatics. They can freely say anything they feel here because none of it is backed up by their employer. We can respect them for what they do! But what they do with their unofficial announcements is absolutley nothing as relates to the fixing of this broken game. Their employer is trash who won't fix their game in a timely manner and doesn't bother to OFFICIALLY let their fan base know what the heck is going on with them. From their history and present, I and others can safely assume that despite what unofficial announcements that the few CivFanatic firaxians make, the company at large is happy to take our money and run. They think there are enough of you dumbstruck fanbois out there that they can get away with this garbage. I beg to differ, and beyond being pissed off by getting ripped off I am concerned for the future of a game franchise which used to produce the only game I ever needed to play!!


Those that don't notice the bugs that 3.13 left are probably those that Civ Revolutions caterers to. The fan patches to the firaxian frackups don't even begin to address the real problems with the game. They do fix some very obvious frackups but neither fan fixers have ever addressed the major root problems with the game. I give much respect for them for fixing some very big and obvious firaxian frack ups. But they have only dealt with the donkey manure that firaxis pawned on us. No work is done with the bonehead AI and no work is done to actually make the BTS features worthy of its existence. BTS was to fix the broken Warlords and not only did BTS fail in fixing Warlords but it failed in every aspect that was new in BTS. It is such garbage that I wonder how even the most clueless fanbois can argue otherwise!

Moderator Action: Warned! - Flaming. The insults weren't needed.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[BSmith1068]

Wow - that was constructive.

The only reality that we all need to rememeber is that Firaxis has NO legal/contractual obligation to even patch the game once. Once you fork over your hard earned cash for the game - that ends the official relationship you have with them. Period.

Now - it makes good business sense to relase patches and fixes after release, but they don't have to do it. At least Firaxis is not like EA and is still releasing patches and supporting games once they are released.

We complain that we don't hear anything from them at all. Then we do. So how do we respond? We complain that it is not "official". Can we not just take the info that Jon has given us and at least be happy that there is indeed another patch on the way?

I agree with the previous poster that this thread can only devolve into nothingness like the last few. It is time for it to be closed before it becomes a total flame/troll war.

 

[White Elk]

I wouldn't call the patches crippleware. I suspect that a lot of people don't even notice the bugs left.
I'm actually quite happy with the current state of the game (3.13 + bhruic).

Yeah +bhruic or solver is the problem ain't it? They rapidly fixed obvious firaxian frack ups in a matter of hours in some cases. Yet firaxaxis cant solve the same within many months!?! But forget for a moment the obvious stuff that the fans have fixed... think of the root problems in the game that the major modders now have a MAJOR problem with. And think of how many of us think the AI is still daft. Or who think that the warlord vassals are still broken. And who think that the BTS promised fixes, only broke the game worse! Not only did BTS fail with BTS, bit it also failed to fix warlords which was left unfixed waiting for BTS to fix it. BTS didnt fix warlords... it only broke it worse and then it even fracked up everything that was new in BTS. It is so unreal how they fracked it up that it is surreal! Truth is stranger than fiction and firaxis has fracked it up so bad that our best fiction writers may have had trouble imagining just how badly firaxis has fracked themselves up. You can argue this from a fanbois slutty pov but look at the facts of this matter and you can NOT argue that BTS fixed nothing and only broke everything that it introduced. Garbage in, Garbage out!

Moderator Action: Using fracked doesn't change the meaning, or intent. Please don't use that type of language.

 

[White Elk]

Wow - that was constructive.

The only reality that we all need to rememeber is that Firaxis has NO legal/contractual obligation to even patch the game once. Once you fork over your hard earned cash for the game - that ends the official relationship you have with them. Period.

Now - it makes good business sense to relase patches and fixes after release, but they don't have to do it. At least Firaxis is not like EA and is still releasing patches and supporting games once they are released.

We complain that we don't hear anything from them at all. Then we do. So how do we respond? We complain that it is not "official". Can we not just take the info that Jon has given us and at least be happy that there is indeed another patch on the way?

I agree with the previous poster that this thread can only devolve into nothingness like the last few. It is time for it to be closed before it becomes a total flame/troll war.

We hear NOTHING from them save for unofficial civ fanatic postings by firaxian employees which is NOTHING!! Their unofficial postings mean absolutley NOTHING. Hear that it means NOTHING! I respect their heads up but there is NOTHING to hold there talk accountable. They can say any best wishes unofficially. Thy can even believe it as I think they do. But it means NOTHING as they have no control over the powers that be who probably treat them like mushrooms... as in keep them in the dark and feed them shite.

As to the ...<Snip>... having no legal/contractual obligation to patch their game well I do think that can be disputed but we are not yet ready for that as societies. There are lemon laws for cars and there are laws for software as well. But even though there may be no lemon law or standards to base a case on the firaxian crap right now, that they have sold us, it is clear that their future rests upon just how we take this BS. Promises offered and marketed but not kept will soon apply to software as it does everything else. But the ...<Snip>... may be dead long before then due to their stupidity and lack of foresight, and possible greed.

 

[Commander Bello]

Wow - that was constructive.
[...]

You should have seen that he was quoting somebody claiming to be satisfied with the state of the game after 3.13 AND the Bhruic patch.

I mean, come on! This actually is really the behaviour of a fanboy. The fanbase (actually, mostly two persons) have patched the patches over and over, and now somebody states to be satisfied with the Firaxis performance.

In addition to this, I do not see anybody complaining about the fact that Jon Shafer communicated with the fanbase, yet the complaints are directed to Firaxis/TakeTwo as a company.
Here I have to agree completely. The company still makes some money with Civ4 in whatever version they throw it onto the shelves, but they obviously do not care very much about any customer who already has paid.

Of course, there is no legal requirement to issue patches, yet the way in which this company acts - based on their official announcements - is not very respectful, to say the least.

Pointing out these things I cannot see as a flamewar or bashing somebody.

 

[gunter]

My UN resolution proposal is to wait for the next patch to come before going on on posting inside this thread cause considering the answer has been officially given I would wait a while before spawing this threrad again

 

[Methos]

Moderator Action: Come on people, what's the deal. There are complaints when Firaxis is silent about patching and than when they state (unofficially) there will be a patch, there are complaints about that!

Thread closed!

 

[Methos]

I'm going to open this thread back up, but let's understand a few things. You can complain about Firaxis/Take2 all you want, but please do so respectfully. Calling them them insulting names is no different than calling another poster that.

Keep this discussion civil.

 

[White Elk]

I apologize for any derogatory remarks I have made towards firaxis and any posters in this thread. My emotions havent changed, but perhaps I should have used different words?.. actually I do see how I could have said near the same things differently. Sorry all... for that disrespect

 

[BSmith1068]

You should have seen that he was quoting somebody claiming to be satisfied with the state of the game after 3.13 AND the Bhruic patch.

I mean, come on! This actually is really the behaviour of a fanboy. The fanbase (actually, mostly two persons) have patched the patches over and over, and now somebody states to be satisfied with the Firaxis performance.

Actually - I was referring to the language and the flaming as being non-constructive - not the greater point he was trying to make.

And yes - grumbler was saying that he was happy with 3.13 and Bhruic's work. I did not read that as being "rah rah Firaxis" only that he was happy with the game in that state and for him it wasn't as bad as it is for White Elk.

@White Elk - thanks for standing up and taking responsibility. Many of our fellow posters would not be so honorable.

 

[toft]

With the "luck" and quality of work put into the latest patches, I have zero hopes for the next and perhaps last patch.

 

[r_rolo1]

Moderator Action: Come on people, what's the deal. There are complaints when Firaxis is silent about patching and than when they state (unofficially) there will be a patch, there are complaints about that!

Thread closed!

I think that the point of this thread still stands, Methos ( and BTW IMHO you did well on reopening it )..... Firaxis as a company simply had been silent since the release of the 3.13 patch ( that has some "loose strings" to say the least..... ). The only thing that we had until now were posts from CFC members ( that ,by accident , are part of the Civ IV programming team ) stating some developments. With all the respect for Shaefer and Alex, in terms of reliability, that has the save valour of a kitchen gossip or of a bar talk ( the point that White Elk tried to expose with a somewhat overflamming language.... ). Patches are released by Firaxis and not by Shaefer or Alex, and if tomorrow a Take2 shark decides, because of something not specified , that there is no patch ( like if CEO decisions were always rational.... ), even if they are working in one until the present moment, do you think that the patch will come out?....

What some people here wanted ( and what the OP said ) was a line in the BtS , in the official Civ IV or in the Firaxis/Take2 site saying something among this lines " we are currently working in a patch to BtS and it is expected to be released in x time". It would worth as much as any corporate promise, but it would be a nice gesture ( and IMHO a good PR move ATM )

 

[Methos]

What some people here wanted ( and what the OP said ) was a line in the BtS , in the official Civ IV or in the Firaxis/Take2 site saying something among this lines " we are currently working in a patch to BtS and it is expected to be released in x time".

I can't see that ever happening. If they posted that than they would be obligated to fulfill it. By not posting it, than if the decision is made not to patch, they can do so without have to back out of a public announcement.

 

[r_rolo1]

I can't see that ever happening. If they posted that than they would be obligated to fulfill it. By not posting it, than if the decision is made not to patch, they can do so without have to back out of a public announcement.

But that is exacly the point, Methos. Some Civ fans want a little certainty about the future of the game they bought, and Firaxis ( by reasons that do not concern to the argument ) is not willing to give it... And all the fuzz of this thread ( and others that died out ) resumes to that. Some people stated that in their ( and mine ) opinion Firaxis has a moral ( can't find a better word ) obligation of resolving the problems of the game they sell ( software should come with a warranty, like any other product IMHO, but I understand the dificulties of implementing that ) and some other stated that Firaxis does not have any kind of legal obligation of patching ( true enough ). And like both groups were talking of diferent things, the mood soured quickly..... But on topic again.....

Until now Shaefer and Alex had been a reliable source of intel. Let us just hope that it continues that way

 

[OctopusOverload]

I hereby suggest a general amnesty for Firaxis and wish them good luck with Civ: Revolution!

(while secretly hoping any money earned goes into either Civ 5 or the next patch )

 

[Smidlee]

I couldn't tell you how many times I've went to the movies (I seldom go now) or buy a DVD and found stupid mistakes in the movie which was never corrected. Thus games or movies are seldom perfect. Even if there isn't another patch I've got my money worth out of BTS and am thankful for all those at Firaxis for all their hard work put into the game even if it does have flaws.
Even at Galciv2 forum with all Brad has done to his game, got some who complain about how buggy the game is. Brad suggested to one not to ever buy a game from them again as it will probably have bugs also.

 

[Loopy]

I can't see that ever happening. If they posted that than they would be obligated to fulfill it. By not posting it, than if the decision is made not to patch, they can do so without have to back out of a public announcement.

God forbid they make a promise to fix a game and actually fulfill that promise.

To twist your words, are you saying that Firaxis isn't willing to do something that simple? That they'd be unable to follow through on a patch? Or they're not "man enough" to admit they'd run into delays if they did?

Other software companies happily make official announcements to their user base. Others have regular communications. Many choose to make such promises, choose take action, and choose to follow through. And then there are some companies that don't.

I'm surprised that Firaxis would actively direct users to a site like this and then choose to not have an official spokesperson to address things when bad press comes up. As I've said before, I suspect simply having an official line of communication to keep us in the loop would address most of our concerns. Regularly popping in once a month to give an update, pimping a new download on their site, and plugging an upcomming release would keep everyone happy (bean counters, lawyers, and marketers included).

And to grumbler, their patches that introduced gamebreaking bugs were most definitely crippleware.

 

[Methos]

To twist your words, are you saying that Firaxis isn't willing to do something that simple?

I don't work for Firaxis, so I can't speak for them. I'm just a poster like you, expressing my opinion. Besides, this isn't as simple as you think.

That they'd be unable to follow through on a patch? Or they're not "man enough" to admit they'd run into delays if they did?

Your forgetting that it doesn't just consist of them saying they will or won't. There is a financial obligation involved. Consider the resources that would need to be delegated towards the patch, when they could be used on other projects.

Other software companies happily make official announcements to their user base. Others have regular communications. Many choose to make such promises, choose take action, and choose to follow through. And then there are some companies that don't.

I agree, but your statement doesn't really say anything.

I'm surprised that Firaxis would actively direct users to a site like this and then choose to not have an official spokesperson to address things when bad press comes up.

I'm currently at work, so I don't have access to the official site, so excuse if I'm wrong on this. I'm basing it off memory. Doesn't the link on the official site that points towards CFC state it is in regards to technical issues and other problems?

As I've said before, I suspect simply having an official line of communication to keep us in the loop would address most of our concerns.

I agree, but this is just our opinion.

 

[King Flevance]

Not to stir a hornet's nest but I am inmild agreement with alot of what WhiteElk said. Just minus the frustration. My frustration period was in Vanilla. At this point, I got milked, I am aware. Won't be happening again. And I will be dissappointed if I continue to watch civ go down this road.

This thread has came a long way since I last read it. So allow me to bounce around.

Firaxis was responsible for making it moddable enough so that someone like Bhruic could fix most of their bugs. So you gotta give 'em some credit.

I agree with that to an extent. The reason T2 'allowed' the SDK was because they saw "$$$" because they know moddability is good for sales. Not because they thought it was something that would make a great game better or to show love to the fans of the title.
As Bello said:

I always thought that the moddability of Civ4 was both, good for the modding community AND good for marketing,<snip>

This here is why they did it. It is win/win. And btw they don't really care that it is win on our side. It got a "checkmark in the box" because it was win on T2's side.

as they can always "duck and cover" behind this.

I don't even think this was planned. This I think was something the community has granted them by giving us a "win" on our side. So really T2 is winning 2 times out of this deal. They get their win. (Profits) And also somehow get credit for our win. (Moddability - suppose to be there for mods not patches.) I have no problem sharing that credit with Firaxis. As alot of people that made 4 are fans of the game. But T2 shouldn't get credit at all. As far as I am concerned, that's business. How many deals do you think I take a day that is win/lose and not in my favor? I would hope no one on this forum does that.
To buy this game I had to invest or even "risk losing" money by purchasing the game that I may or may not like. To make me want to buy this game T2 had to invest or even "risk losing" money to make the game worth buying. No they don't get credit for that.

I wouldn't call the patches crippleware. I suspect that a lot of people don't even notice the bugs left.
I'm actually quite happy with the current state of the game (3.13 + bhruic).

But is that statement true if you take off "+Bhruic"? Was it true with 3.02 if you take off "+Solver"?
Wouldn't it be great if the "moddability" of civ 4 could actually be seen as the "moddability" and not the "possibility for a proper investment"?
View it from this perspective and see if you feel the same way:

But from the perspective of someone who's not a regular in these forums, or a computer newbie uncomfortable with unofficial patches, then yeah, I agree that Firaxis really dropped the ball. Without Bhruic's unofficial patch, and given the low quality of Firaxis/Take2 tech support, those folks are left stranded with a broken game.

Civ 4 probably came across to these people as a game that "had a neat idea" but couldn't pull it off.

But unofficial postings mean absolutely nothing...

This is very true.
This is a quote from a Firaxian on this site. Pre-Warlords release when the fans were upset that they had to buy the new expansion pack to get any further "fixes" (patches) for the game. And, of course, they thought it sucked and were starting a tantrum throwing contest I participated in.

It was mentioned a few times in this thread that Warlords will be required for future Civ 4 patches. Where was this ever mentioned before? As an FYI, Civ 4 will remain independent of Warlords for any future patches.

Notice how he says "Where was this ever mentioned before"? Wel,, it hadn't been. Because they didn't have fan communication back then either. But the fans had guessed it right.
But for kicks, notice how he said Civ 4 will remain independant of Warlords for future patches. He was right. And they never patched Civ 4 again until 1.74. Which had to do with multiplayer bugs I believe. Chariots still don't counter axes in vanilla IIRC.
So yes, while we may appreciate Firaxians communicating to us. Just remember "fibbing" is a form of communication. I am not saying that a Firaxian would intentionally lie, but I am saying that they may unintentionally do it. As anytime a Firaxian speaks up "unofficially" they are putting words in the mouth of T2. What they will relay is what is on the "rumor mill" at Firaxis.

Can we not just take the info that Jon has given us and at least be happy that there is indeed another patch on the way?

No we cannot. It is not an official announcement. It's hearsay. It could easily rumor based off the fact that T2 is discussing possibly funding or coming out with another patch.

BTS was to fix the broken Warlords and not only did BTS fail in fixing Warlords but it failed in every aspect that was new in BTS.

And Warlords was the "fix" for vanilla. I am tired of seeing this constant money leeching form of financial support. We support them more than they support us.

The reason I mention these thing s along with the "Silence" as I know some people are saying "what does that have to do with anything?" But this all falls under the "support" catagory. I wouldn't care about the silence so much if the game didn't seem to be constantly sitting on a hollow foundation of support.

Meh this'll work. As I am re-reviewing the thread seems alot of this will actually get double-triple coverage.