ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

[Preston85]

Spam one religion to Toka and a different religion to Rag's ?

 

[Sisiutil]

Sorry for the continued delay. I will try to play the next round and post it sometime this weekend.

 

[pigswill]

If you are first to theology then religious division would become an option. Be handy to get the north west fishing village. Cottages seem to be the next priority.
Does anyone yet have a clear idea of AI's tech paths under the patch?

 

[Phrederick]

The State of the World, 640 AD
Cuman is not exactly a production powerhouse, and while I have marble, I have no forests to chop-rush the Great Library. And I have another big competitor out there, as you'll see. I would not be surprised if I get beaten to it this game. That would be quite an adjustment for me; I can't recall the last time I didn't build the GL. I rely on it not just for the extra research points from the two free scientists; I also rely on its ability to produce Great Scientists.

I really think it would be helpful for you to play a few games and purposefully not build or attempt to capture the Library. I think you place much too high of an importance on it, to the detriment of other things at times. To be honest, I build it in most of my games, probably between half and two thirds of them. However, I only build it when it's convenient and is a better choice than alternative uses for that time and expense.

Edit: After having a chance to look at the savegame, here's my suggestions:

• Change forge to courthouse in Bombay.
• Change library to courthouse in Madras. I wouldn't bother with a library for a while: let them build your military while the rest of the empire is working on economic builds. Don't bother with the Heroic Epic just yet, just drop 4-5 elephants and some catapults, to boost your power and provide deterrence, as well as insurance incase of unwelcome war. Also, turn on the governor and assign max food; build that city up.
• I personally would give up on the Great Library, and change to a courthouse in Cuman. If you want to keep going, then at least work the rice to grow quickly to 4, then switch to max hammers.
• Whip Calcutta and Lahore's granaries as soon as it's possible, so that the benefits start quickly. Work on courthouses next there. Concentrate on high-food to get the population up quickly. Since Calcutta will be able to whip first, send the missionary there so the whip benefits from OR.
• Workers: Why are you cutting down jungle? If you're going to build cottages in Cuman, first build cottages on the grassland before cutting down more jungle. Also there's a dye that needs a plantation. Also, take the three workers you just captured near Lahore and send them back to Bombay. Start building cottages, all on the same tile together. As you build cottages, assign those tiles to be worked; you want to get that city on max food asap. After Bombay, do the same to Delhi.
• After the forge in Delhi, I'd build the settler there for the peninsula.
• Technology: I'd go currency then civil service. University of Sankore is probably going to be worth considering, if you can get it. Then I'd go down the Optics route to meet the other continent.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 8: to 980 AD

Okay, I implemented a number of your suggestions this round. The economy is much better off as a result, but we're nevertheless falling behind the other civs.

To start off, I changed several of the city builds, prioritizing courthouses, lighthouses, and granaries. I also went to see Ragnar for a trade. He wouldn't trade me Currency for love nor money, so I settled for Horseback Riding and some sweet green:

HBR seems like a more attractive tech now thanks to the addition of the Stable, which allows you to produce Level 3 mounted units (with a barracks, of course). I plan on building a few to produce a few Combat II War Elephants. The extra gold allowed me to run the slider in the red for much of the round.

I also changed research, from Theology to Currency, as suggested by Phrederick:

Now remember I had my first great general. At first I was going to use him for a Med III Chariot, but then I realized that I don't have a Chariot with 6 XPs, which with the Warlord's 20 XPs would give me a Level 6 unit for West Point later in the game. In addition, we're going into peaceful builder mode for several turns, so a Med unit would just sit around. So I sent him to Bangalore to be settled instead:

Yes, I've decided to make Bangalore the military (Heroic Epic) city. Madras is just a little too close to Viking territory for my comfort. If Ragnar declares war and captures it, I've lost my HE city. Bangalore has excellent production and is safely away from the front lines.

Speaking of the Vikings, one of their cities flipped, as I thought it would:

I decided not to keep it. It hasn't got much to recommend it and would just be a drain on my finances. If and when Bjorgvin, to its southeast, flips, I'll keep it.

I then got some bad news: I got beaten to the Great Library by Tokugawa, of all people!

Well, it wasn't all bad news. I could theoretically capture the GL since it's on my continent. And, of course, I got a pile of gold that allowed me to keep researching at a rate beyond my economic capacity. Notice how CS is going to take me all of 11 turns instead of the 24 it would have at the start of the round?

With the research slider so high, it was time to expand. Since I wasn't warring, I did so peacefully:

First build: a workboat for the clams. This is one of those maps where building the Colossus made a lot of sense, with so much seafood around.

And Tokugawa finally warmed up a little:

He wouldn't trade me any techs, but at least he's feeling friendlier.

If finished researching my second tech of the round...

And immediately switched civics. I started researching Machinery next, in order to green light Macemen.

In another interesting development, Tokugawa founded Taoism on that same turn:

So here's how things look in 980 AD. In terms of technology, we're really falling behind:

I've never seen Tokugawa as the tech leader before. Obviously the enhanced AI is indeed making a difference! No one else has Civil Service yet, but that can't be far off.

Relations:

Mehmed, by the way, has become Toku's vassal.

Power:

I'm slowly catching up, but still dangerously far behind.

And that other unknown civ continues to go wonder-crazy, adding the Sistine Chapel to its growing repertoire:

The demographics:

So... is the game lost, or can we still pull something off? I myself see two options: one is to continue to play peacefully and prioritize Optics to find the other continent; the other option is to get Macemen and go to war. The latter strikes me as dangerous--with the other civs on my continent being Friendly with one another, I'll probably end up fighting all three. That may be inevitable, however; Ragnar and Toku have got to be chomping at the bit to take me on. It would at least make for a spectacular finish!

 

[cabert]

peaceful is lost IMHO.
You could have gone peaceful from the scratch but not now...

 

[patagonia]

So... is the game lost, or can we still pull something off? I myself see two options: one is to continue to play peacefully and prioritize Optics to find the other continent; the other option is to get Macemen and go to war. The latter strikes me as dangerous--with the other civs on my continent being Friendly with one another, I'll probably end up fighting all three. That may be inevitable, however; Ragnar and Toku have got to be chomping at the bit to take me on. It would at least make for a spectacular finish!

This game isn't lost by any stretch of the imagination. Despite all the hyperbole earlier in the thread, it never was.

You're still a way behind in terms of GNP, but that's because you've got fewer citizens working fewer cottages than the current leader. However, by this stage of the game, the new AI is already close to maxing out its cities and its only increases from here on will be due to cottage maturation. On the other hand, you've still got a lot of growing and development to do in the land you've already secured, which should see you gaining parity by the Renaissance and taking the lead by the Industrial era.

It's unlikely that any AI on the other continent is more advanced than anyone on yours, because you haven't seen any caravels yet and Taoism went to Japan. Now that there's another religion on the continent, you might want to get a couple of Buddhist missionaries out there to shore-up the Viking faith. Toku will switch to Taoism fairly soon and close borders with you and Ragnar as a result, which means you stand a chance of being able to get the Vikings to dogpile him with you if you do fancy another war.

If that's the route you follow (the alternative would be a missionary spam to Japan to try to keep him Buddhist, and continue the current peaceful buildup), I'd research machinery and engineering ready to fire up the war machine. Maces are a bit redundant in the short term and I'd be inclined to stockpile crossbows (anti-melee), elephants (anti-everything), trebuchets (anti-city) and the odd pike and longbow for protection. Maces are worth building if you're going for domination and want units to upgrade to CR3 infantry, but in the current era they don't do any job as effectively as either trebuchets or crossbows.

Toku will trade you Feudalism and his available gold for bureaucracy, which is probably worth doing as it'll get you longbows for defense and give you the option to vassalize him or Mehmed should you war and be so inclined. It'll also get you the Vassalage and Serfdom civics, which will help you enormously: Vassalage so you can stockpile units one turn from completion and then have a quick civics swap for the extra XP; and Serfdom to get all that land developed faster and to keep you from whipping all your precious population away!

 

[Phrederick]

Toku will trade you Feudalism and his available gold for bureaucracy, which is probably worth doing

It also gives him samurai, which is bad if you're planning on going to war. However, my instinct says stay peaceful for another round, and go to war with gunpowder. I'll take a look at the save later on and post some more detailed comments.

All right, I checked out the savegame. I think both peace and war are viable, but I'd tend towards war. Briefly, if you do go peaceful, I'd go paper, machinery, compass, optics, and trade with Toku right now for Feudalism. Build Univ of Sankore in the capital, and get temples/monestaries in all cities. Otherwise, prepare for war as soon as you get 4 trebuchets. They truly are wonderful for dropping cities. The reason I'd choose war is that you don't have a hugely dominant position on your island, either in land, tech, or infrastructure. Your economy is strong enough to support a large war to subjugate someone, though.

City by city:

• Delhi: Why build an aquaduct? When unhealthy, two health is equivalent to two food, and you aren't food-poor. Work the pigs and you won't have any problem for quite a while. It's already almost built, though.
• Bombay: After the library finishes, I'd finish off the forge. If it wasn't half-built, I might skip it and just build military, but since it's already half-done, might as well finish it.
• Cuman: I would personally work dyes over cottages. It'll take longer to get the cottages up to speed, but the dyes have a much larger immediate payoff. Also, if you do go to war, there's a chance that the cottages might get pillaged anyway. Why farm the plains? You have two high-food tiles (and aren't working one?!?), so I wouldn't have improved that tile yet. Build granary then forge next.
• Bursa: Why the chariot? Their military usefullness is over. What can they kill?
• Lahore: Lighthouse should have been built after the courthouse. You already have scabs of high-food tiles, an extra 1-2 food is less important than a 1-2gold savings in city maintenance.

I'd also consider dropping walls in bursa/calcutta, just in case you're invaded. It'll only take three turns each, and that seems pretty short. I usually play Epic, though, so my sense of time is slightly skewed. With the workers between Delhi and Bombay, I'd cottage that final floodplain.

Who to attack? It's unlikely that you'll be able to split Ragnar and Toku, even if Toku converts to Taoism. That'll remove a +4 and turn it into a -3 probably, and I doubt that will be enough to bribe Ragnar. Ragnar is closer, so I'd aim for him. Plus, his UU is only offensive, and you should be able to keep him from attacking your cities.

If you wait for Engineering, you'll have 15 turns. Here's what I'd build:
Madras: 2 elephants, 2 xbows. Skip the catapults; you want to build them where they'll have 5exp and can get accuracy.
Bursa: chariot, elephant, xbow.
Bangalore: 2 catapults (gives total of 4 Accurate cats), 1 ele, the rest macemen
Delhi: Elephants then macemen (probably can get 2 then 4)
Bombay: After finishing the forge, a couple macemen

After engineering, switch all to trebs. As soon as you get 1-2, take Bjorgvin. By this point you should have added to your military roughly 4 elephants, 3 xbows, 4-6 macemen. That should be enough to take Ragnar down.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

My thoughts:

1) Are you teching on autopilot? That is to say, did you review each of the techs available, and decide that Macemen were your priority in this position, or did you surrender the decision to your inner war monger without thought?

I'd recommend the exercise of writing up a review of each tech as you choose the next research path

2) Your cities are still too small. This might have to do with the fact that several of your cities are not working all their best food tiles.

3) Your cities are under improved - you've got Bureaucracy running, and an underdeveloped capital, and your workers are clearing jungles and building mines that your cities can't use yet?

4) Workboats are transferrable hammers. Too late to do anything about that now, but there you go.

5) A lot of your tile assignments are loose, and you've got some overlap issues as well. I'm sympathetic if that part of the game isn't fun for you, but if that's so maybe you should turn the governors back on (which doesn't help with the overlap issues).

 

[Zarah Neander]

Why should the game be lost?

I concur with patagonia and want to add that the power rating of both is a paper tiger cause a good part comes from walls and longbowman. This however will chance, personally I wouldn't wait till gunpowder. Also worthwhile to note, Ragnars only source of iron is very near your borders.

Toku is the leader, but the vassalage adds quite a bit, so he isn't really that far ahead.

 

[aelf]

I agree. You are definitely not lost. Your GNP has moved up to 3rd place. That's a good sign.

You should get used to having a lower power rating and being behind in techs. These are common circumstances on the higher levels, and Monarch on the new patch belongs to that category.

 

[Phrederick]

You should get used to having a lower power rating and being behind in techs. These are common circumstances on the higher levels, and Monarch on the new patch belongs to that category.

Yeah. If you wait until you're equal in power, you've waited too long. I'm almost never at the top of the power chart until it's obvious I've already won. Same for the tech lead. And you've lost some momentum, but this game is still easily winnable.

 

[curtadams]

Falling behind techwise was an inevitable result of the course you took with Mehmed - adding one small and 2 new cities early in the game. As your cities develop, your economy will catch up. War isn't desirable now - it's the worst time to fight Ragnar and Toku, because of their UUs, and you also face the possibility of falling behind the other continent. With elephants and catapults, you don't much need Macemen so I'd push for Optics and try to set up relations with the other continent. You should consider gifting Ragnar, Toku, or both with resources to get the "you have given us resources" bonus and build up your military so you're less of a target (I suspect you're perilously close to getting autoattacked by Toku now - 2 to 1 power ratios seem to be about where the AI figures it can just kill you). With luck Toku will switch to Taoism and I think you could get Ragnar on your side in a war then.

A brutal alternative is to bribe Toku into a war with Mehmed. Make sure it won't get you another demerit from Ragnar, though, and it's not worth it unless Mehmed hangs around for a while.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Classic example of the dangers of war vs the dangers of peace. I still feel that war is really the obvious option, but for the sake of relations, because the AI diplomacy engine is such that warmongering leaders respect each other more, and same to peacemongers. You're been waring for a while: attaking Toku might get Ragnar to respect you a little more anyway. As to Samurai... you'd much prefer to face those than longbowman anyway.

 

[aelf]

If you bordered him and Toku attacked you, that might actually be a gift from heaven. Unfortunately, as it is, it would only be a nuisance. Capturing and keeping Toku's cities would be a logistical and financial nightmare at this stage of the game. I guess you could benefit somewhat from capturing his vassal's remaining territory, but that wouldn't really help to end the war and you might still need to march on the Japanese cities in order to force a peace before WW begins to get heavy. Tough luck with the circumstances.

However, that is not to say that you should be peaceful or defensive. You have elephants and can soon have trebs, both highly effective units. Use them to your advantage! The next target would naturally be Ragnar, your only possible friend on the continent. See, what did I say about leaving Mehmed alone earlier?

 

[Rashkaar]

Ragnar needs to die, and fast. You will need to take his territories along with extorting tech/pillage money in order to keep up in the tech race.

This, along with workers preparing your land to fully utilize after Ragnar is crippled/vassalized (not a bad option if he still has some cities left, to help demolish Toku later), will ensure massive growth and eventually catching up to the other continent sometime around 1500ad.

Pump out that stack of doom, add some trebs when research is complete, and go to war. Just watch your back, Toku is a true psycho and may decide to join the war on either side (if he converts to Taoism, keep checking if you can bribe him into breaking off trade)

Peace will only hurt your long-term objectives.

 

[uncarved block]

Well, this is even worse than the "Gandhi on the other continent" problem, isn't it? Tokugawa's main weakness is lagging in techs, something that looks lost for good at the moment. If he doesn't attack with Samurais, my guess is he'll beeline to Chemistry and do it with Grenadiers. But once he switches to Taoism (and the AIs almost always switch to the religions they found, right?) I'd say war is just a matter of time.

VoU, not having Macemen and Crossbowmen seems to be just like hanging a big "Attack me now!" sign on your back, from what I've seen in my games. It's not as critical a tech decision as Bronzeworking, but it's right up there, IMO.

My two cents: war against Ragnar is possible, but the long term game plan seems to be peace. I think Toku is going to beat you to Gunpowder and all the other military techs, and with the Protective trait, war will be really, really painful. Heck, conquering somebody on the other continent looks like a better option right now, but maybe I'm just pessimistic-- I've been getting smacked around pretty hard since the patch came out. (Grumble, grumble.) OTOH, I've seen Sisiutil work wonders before, so who knows . . ?

 

[patagonia]

Ragnar needs to die, and fast. You will need to take his territories along with extorting tech/pillage money in order to keep up in the tech race.

This is actually impossible.

By definition, going to war means building a lot of units (preferably whilst adopting war civics like Vassalage or Theocracy). That implies a drop in civilian/economic builds and growth. Add in inevitable war weariness and going to battle can only harm your tech situation in the short-mid term.

Where it will come to fruition is in the long term once you've consolidated your gains and grown/developed them sufficiently to help you overhaul the disadvantage that warring caused you in the first place. That point hasn't yet been reached with the land taken from Mehmed (it's still probably at least one tech era away), so in that sense another war, while in many ways advisable due to the units that are about to become available (everyone new to Warlords should play with treb stacks at least once), is possibly a bit premature.

With the land you already have, you can overhaul Toku and Ragnar (plus anyone on the other continent who doesn't go conquest-happy) by 1500-1600AD through continued peaceful expansion and the addition of a couple more cities to fill in existing gaps. Taking out another of the neighbours will allow you to blow the rest out of the water in terms of tech even more impressively, but not until about 1750-1800AD because of the hit to development the war will cost you. This has pretty much always been the tradeoff you make with war, but is much more magnified now with the new AI since it does peace much more effectively than before, and you can't drag everyone's development back simultaneously.

 

[gdgrimm]

VoU, not having Macemen and Crossbowmen seems to be just like hanging a big "Attack me now!" sign on your back, from what I've seen in my games. It's not as critical a tech decision as Bronzeworking, but it's right up there, IMO.

A War Elephant force is, IMHO, more effective as a deterrant than a Macemen/Crossbowmen force.

Out of the gates (Barracks/Stables), War Elephants are 8 + 20% (Combat I/II) = 9.6 against almost everything (weak against Spearmen/Pikemen, strong against non-Elephant mounted).

Macemen will be 8 + 10% (Combat I) = 8.8 against most things (weak against Archers, strong against Spearment/Pikemen).

As a secondary bonus, the Elephants will eventually upgrade to Cavalry, which are by far the best deterrent force one can have until Armor rolls around.

 

[Phrederick]

By definition, going to war means building a lot of units (preferably whilst adopting war civics like Vassalage or Theocracy). That implies a drop in civilian/economic builds and growth. Add in inevitable war weariness and going to battle can only harm your tech situation in the short-mid term.

[snip]another war, while in many ways advisable due to the units that are about to become available (everyone new to Warlords should play with treb stacks at least once), is possibly a bit premature.

With the land you already have, you can overhaul Toku and Ragnar (plus anyone on the other continent who doesn't go conquest-happy) by 1500-1600AD through continued peaceful expansion and the addition of a couple more cities to fill in existing gaps. Taking out another of the neighbours will allow you to blow the rest out of the water in terms of tech even more impressively, but not until about 1750-1800AD because of the hit to development the war will cost you. This has pretty much always been the tradeoff you make with war, but is much more magnified now with the new AI since it does peace much more effectively than before, and you can't drag everyone's development back simultaneously.

Looking at some of his cities, I'm not sure what he could build besides military units. I don't often build markets/groceries for another era, since at 80% research, they only add (10%*25%) .25% gold per commerce, or 2-3 gold per city. What else is left? And if you're building units, why not use them? Yes, you will take a hit from war weariness. And yes, you will take a hit from increased maintenance. And yes, it'll take longer until the investment pays off. But I think it would be worth it.

I'm unsure about whether or not we would be able to overtake the other continent with our current lands. I know it would be hard to impossible on Emperor. Monarch makes it easier, but I don't think Sisiutil is that interested in the intense micromanaging that makes economic supremecy possible with average-sized territory. However, I don't have enough experience with the new patch to know how much it changes things.

Alternatively, has there been a game yet where Sisiutil hasn't conquered his entire continent? I can't think of one offhand. It could be fun just for variety to not conquer anyone else on this continent.

Aelf: One thing to consider if we did war with Japan: the Forbidden Palace could take care of the distance maintenance for Japanese territory. They're still not as attractive a target as the Vikings, but I think it would be possible.