ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[oyzar]

I saw the internet was using in a space race win on diety in the hof. in fact i think it would be quite qruicial for that purpose.

You have discovered Fusion!
You have discovered Fascism!
You have discovered Communism!
You have discovered Artillery!
You have discovered Rocketry!
Ironhead has completed The Internet!

Of course you do actually have alot of these techs allready.
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game_info.php?entryID=4066

Ofc that was diety this is monarch.

 

[jerVL/kg]

i loved your thread about that! questioned your sanity of course, but very much enjoyed reading about your game.

Oh, there's no question about my sanity...it doesn't exist! Speaking of which...

ps to drkodos: "Going third person in posting should be relegated to the mentally insane, professional atheletes, and/or megalomaniacal Hollywood has-beens." how about a crazy in a silly way, totally hates sports, girl that grew up in north hollywood? KMad thinks that qualifies

I can tell you from experience that growing up in North Hollywood -- or anywhere near The Valley -- qualifies you as mentally insane.

 

[TheArchduke]

Kudos on pulling yourself up and beating the Mongolians. I am very sure the added powerbase comes in handy.

Detour to Mass Media if you can, I think Diplo is worth a try if you beat or dogpile the 2nd behind you when the vote comes around. Else I am in with all others, the Internet will be your saviour.

 

[patagonia]

I wasn't done tech trading, nosireebob:

I was fortunate to be able to hit up almost everybody in order to avoid the dreaded WFYABTA excuse.

I may have totally misinterpreted what you've written, but I've picked this out in case one of us doesn't understand WFYABTA and I'm honestly not sure who.

Did you mean you had several people to trade with so you didn't have to worry about those who got WFYABTA? Or that you traded with several people to postpone reaching the limit with any of them?

As I understand it, WFYABTA depends on the total number of techs you've traded with all other civs, not the number you've traded with that particular civ. The limit gets raised slightly with each tech era you enter, but it's possible to meet some of the more stingy leaders and have them already say WFYABTA. Somebody please correct me if this is wrong.

The way around it, of course, is to get another leader up to friendly and then they'll happily trade anything apart from space-race techs. With 2-3 friendly civs you can merrily tech-whore like it's going out of fashion and not worry about the rest of the world. As things stand and neither Mehmed or Huayna will sign a DP with you to push them up to friendly, I'd just sign one with Cyrus (which will make you safe from harm unless he declares on one of the others) and not worry about anyone else. HC may be the tech leader, but he lacks aluminium, iron and coal, all of which are essential for speedy spaceship production.

In general terms, the bulk of Mongolia looks good for converting to workshops and watermills. Old Sarai, Turfan, New Sarai, and Kerkouane can take care of the most production, with a bit of help from Carthage if necessary. And speaking of Carthage, it needs a factory, not Taoist missionaries - any reason for those? You've got no unhappiness problems and no shrine so they seem like a bit of a waste, as any prophet generated now would be better saved for a golden age.

Health is going to be a minor problem until refrigeration/genetics, but I wouldn't worry about a little unhealthiness in the meantime, and as far as clean power goes, you've got uranium so if you can pick up Fission along the way, nuclear plants will take care of your needs.

I'd re-route your fiber optics beeline through rocketry so that you can get Apollo built while you're researching fiber optics to help speed things along. At the current rate that'll hopefully just mean 5 extra turns (if Cyrus lacks computers when you get there, putting 1 turn into plastics will probably make him trade, and then it's another 4 to research rocketry).

And finally, repeat after me: "Hannibal is not a spiritual leader" - at normal speed it really pays to change civics in pairs rather than singly in quick succession.

Now go build that tin can to the stars.

 

[Winston Hughes]

I look forward to your thoughts. Will this be the first ALC that I lose, or can I pull a long-shot victory from the snapping, salivating, offal-drenched jaws of defeat? (Eeewwww...)

You've got to love these ultra-tense late-game situations. Sometimes I wonder if yourself and aelf (hey, that rhymes!) don't deliberately let the AI get a lead just to pull it back in dramatic fashion for our entertainment.

I wish I could offer some advice, but I'm nowhere near good enough to pull off a win from that situation... So I'll just confine myself to wishing you good luck, and saying "thanks!" for yet another gripping thread.

 

[FeedBack]

As I understand it, WFYABTA depends on the total number of techs you've traded with all other civs, not the number you've traded with that particular civ. The limit gets raised slightly with each tech era you enter, but it's possible to meet some of the more stingy leaders and have them already say WFYABTA. Somebody please correct me if this is wrong.

This is absolutely true. It works this way (at least according to the last version of Blake's AI mod):

Every leader has a "NoTechTradeThreshold" parameter. You can look at it on the XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml. Let's just say that Mansa's value is 20 and Toku's value is 5. You get this value, multiplies by the level modifier (get this on parameter iNoTechTradeModifier from XML\GameInfo\CIV4HandicapInfo.xml; for monarch it's 50) + 100 and divides by 100. Excluding other checks, this is the ammount of techs you can trade with the player without being denied for being a "TECH WHORE". Exemplifying:

Tokugawa:
5 * (100 + 50) / 100 = 7.5
Mansa Musa:
20 * (100 + 50) / 100 = 30

If the number of techs you already traded with everyone, the AI will deny the trade. The only other factor is: this number is compared to the number of techs the player REMEMBERS that you traded. That's the part I hadn't figured out yet.

 

[LosBlack]

i remember (from my only space race game) not being able to hurry production of space ship parts with GE or whatever. is chopping forests the only way to speed up SS parts?

 

[cabert]

If the number of techs you already traded with everyone, the AI will deny the trade. The only other factor is: this number is compared to the number of techs the player REMEMBERS that you traded. That's the part I hadn't figured out yet.

Which player memory are you talking about?
I've also heard that you get some more allowed tech trades for every era, but I need confirmation of this.

Another thing to remember (and that "the internet" allows you to simply ignore) is the AIs won't trade Spaceship techs. It's hard to trade for rocketry!

 

[cabert]

i remember (from my only space race game) not being able to hurry production of space ship parts with GE or whatever. is chopping forests the only way to speed up SS parts?

yes and no
chopping is indeed allowed for spaceship parts, and with factory+power+forge+Iw, you get 100+ hammers for every chop.
No other rushing button is available for a project.
BUT
overflow is allowed.
So if you're ready to deal with high unhappiness from emancipation, whipping the space parts in advance (meaning before you have the techs!) is possible (anarchy won't help though).
$ rushing them in advance is also possible, just play with the queue:
- start a factory, stop somewhere before the end
- start a powerplant, stop somewhere before the end
- start a laboratory, stop somewhere before then end
- $ rush, the laboratory
- next turn, $ rush the factory
- next turn, $ rush the powerplant
- build wealth or science until the spaceship part is available.
- as soon as the spaceship part is available, start building it : you apply overflow from those 3 previous buildings = 3 turns worth of hammers.

This can be "abused" for the last parts, by rushing much more than 3 buildings : temples, grocery, bank, ....
It's better to do it with buildings than with units because of decaying hammers.

I've never done the multiple rushes for space parts, but i did $rush on the turn before acquiring the tech every time.

 

[FeedBack]

When I say player, I mean the AI. Sorry. The code uses the "Player" keyword.
That bonus for every era may mean the AI "forgets" some older tech trades you have made. I'll try to figure this out better. If anyone knows it, please help!

Another thing to remember (and that "the internet" allows you to simply ignore) is the AIs won't trade Spaceship techs. It's hard to trade for rocketry!

I'm looking at the code again. Right below the TECH_WHORE check are the MONOPOLY check, the MYSTERY checks (monopoly on unit, building wonder or building project) and the VICTORY check. The AI won't trade any tech that leads to a victory. Curiosity: the only Victory type that exists on the XML is the VICTORY_SPACE_RACE. I wonder why....

 

[aelf]

And finally, repeat after me: "Hannibal is not a spiritual leader" - at normal speed it really pays to change civics in pairs rather than singly in quick succession.

Well, by now it would take 2 turns to change 2 civics, even on Normal speed.

 

[TheArchduke]

And finally, repeat after me: "Hannibal is not a spiritual leader" - at normal speed it really pays to change civics in pairs rather than singly in quick succession.

Another vote for that. Though it got better, you still swap around civics to often.

In my last game I actually ignored Free Trade as I bee lined to Communism, for so few turns there was no need for Free Trade really.

 

[Galileo44]

I agree with everyone so far, Internet rush seems to be the only viable plan. Hopefully you can get some production centers up in time to build the parts. Also, a war on the other continent would be bad as if you have 1 AI run away with tech and not trade, then you're screwed 'cause the Internet needs two. So hope for peace and trade-happy AI.

Good Luck!

 

[PMabey]

Domination - no way - behind in techs + power. Cross continental invasion will take too long
Culture - no
Conquest - no
Time - no
Space Race - tech situation looks bad but still not out of the question
Diplo - IMO maybe your best chance.
Ok there are some pretty big ifs here. Cyrus is clearly going to be your oponent for this victory, unless someone else builds the UN so he wont vote for you. Tokugawa almost certainly wont vote for you. That leaves Shaka, HC and Mehmed who are all pleased and can probably all be improved. I think with these three civ's votes you will have enough. However IF they like Cyrus more than you then you have a problem - do space race. IF they arent friendly with Cyrus then you have a chance, get every postitive modifier you can and hope. IF you cant get them happy enough then try getting a mutual struggle bonus against Tokugawa. This may also net you or those who will vote for you, some more cities. IF you get close to dilpo limit then farm everywhere and get population up.

Whatever happens, you need to be quick or some AI will complete their space ship.

 

[johnny_rico]

I think you're too far behind to get a diplomatc victory. Once AI has rocketry, they will abstain from voting. If shaka's got rocketry, then everyone's got it.

I'd say the Internet for space race will be the most likely path to victory. I'd recommend ICBM's to help prevent anyone else building a spaceship. Perhaps you could nuke enough of your opponent to merit enough votes on your own for a diplomatic victory. I've never tried that. Melt your opposition on your way to victory, hordes of mutants in your wake.

 

[uncarved block]

Actually, this looks to be setting up fairly nicely, though <Bugs Bunny voice> I could be wrong. If the Space Ship is more about production than research, then Mehmed and Cyrus only have two decent production cities, looking at the save. Buy the Internet, whip for the Apollo Program (and maybe the Engine), and I can see winning this about five turns ahead of the AI. Overly optimistic, maybe, but with HC being such a tech monster, I see this coming down to maximizing city management-- and I've also never seen the AI switch to Slavery in the modern era. The final demographics may suffer, but hey, better than losing, eh? Sabotaging the Space Elevator would be helpful, but it may be too late for that.

Now, I'm not saying I could do this, but after reading through all these ALCs, Sisiutil certainly gets my vote of confidence that this is possible.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

If you have spare production build the The Manhattan Project and a couple of nukes... if your unable to stop the AI from building the last spaceship part because all your spies have been caught, the tiles around the City building the spaceship part becomes useless, you'e saved yourself a few trurn , by declaring wars on the AIs... but it's probably worth it since your near the end game. Btw I havn't used Nukes in Civ4, won most of my dominations before modern era.

I love tha Intarweb!! I agree with the rest of the gallery, so go get your JFK mask on and start rehearsing your "To the moon in 10 years" speech now. You're go for launch, SASA! (That's Sisiutil's Aeronautic and Space Agency) Once again, I advocate heavy use of spies. It worked for the Great , right? And like Kniteowl and jerVL/kg said, having a couple ICBM's on hand as a last ditch standoff tactic isn't such a bad idea.


On the other front, the diplomatic one - I just negotiated a diplomatic end to a potential crisis brought on by my wife's ex- , so excuse me if I'm in a diplomatic mood right now and say it's definitely still a possible victory route. I think space is more likely, but you could possibly use a war against Toku as diplomatic coin with Huayna or Mehmed. Maybe a DefPac with Huayna or Mehmed would be possible after a joint war. I suggest them instead of Cyrus just to try and increase your vote count, as everyone else has pointed out that a DefPac (sorry, can't call it a DP, my mind's always in the gutter ) with Cyrus wouldn't help your vote count.

Don't forget, you don't actually have to get the UN for your diplo vic in this case, too - You and Cy are the two big dogs - so you don't have to devote resources or research towards it.

You should play these games then start writing for 24 next season - you sure can build the tension towards the endgame!

 

[Sisiutil]

Good recommendations. I will slip Rocketry in there before Fibre Optics just to get the Apollo Program started, I'll see about a defensive pact with Cyrus, and I'll build a factory in Carthage and let its food surplus deal with the resulting health problem. I don't think a war is likely--once the AI gets Rocketry, it tends to focus on it.

(Just throwing out an idea: Shaka is very weak--what if I declare war on him, take that northern city, and then insist on Rocketry in the peace settlement? Or is that too unlikely and too big a risk? It would certainly do in any hopes of a diplomatic victory.)

I'm also thinking I should hang on to any Great People I generate from this point on in hopes of being able to trigger a Golden Age. I've noticed the AI makes Fibre Optics and Fusion a low priority, so who knows, I might luck out and get the free GE. We'll see.

In defense of the civics changes, it was a VERY long round and I was focused on the war, so they didn't seem excessive at the time. It was just when I went through the screenshots that I realized how many I'd made!

 

[jerVL/kg]

(Just throwing out an idea: Shaka is very weak--what if I declare war on him, take that northern city, and then insist on Rocketry in the peace settlement? Or is that too unlikely and too big a risk? It would certainly do in any hopes of a diplomatic victory.)

I wouldn't risk it. The AI can be remarkably stingy when it comes to techs, and Shaka will likely vassalize himself to Tokugawa, which will put you in DEEP doo-doo. On the other hand, if you're feeling spunky and think you can fend off another Toku invasion, why not go for it? (Hmm...we never did capture Shaka's Pyramids, did we??)

I'm also thinking I should hang on to any Great People I generate from this point on in hopes of being able to trigger a Golden Age. I've noticed the AI makes Fibre Optics and Fusion a low priority, so who knows, I might luck out and get the free GE. We'll see.

Absolutely save all the GPs you get from now on. Don't burn any more on techs. A last-minute GA might be what makes or breaks this game. I wouldn't count on the free GE, though -- HC already has Fission, so he's probably heading for Fusion right now, if he's not already there. (Too bad you can't sabotage research like you can with spaceship parts!)

 

[Validator]

Buy the Internet, whip for the Apollo Program (and maybe the Engine)

I thought the Internet, Apollo and SS parts are classified as projects and therefore can't be hurried.