ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[pigswill]

Well done, victory from the jaws of defeat. Strong late game pulled it off for you.
Having said that the early game was not your strongest. It seemed to me that you were reluctant to leave your comfort zone at the start but at the same time felt you that you should (particularly re NC) and so tended to dither and not have a coherent strategy.
I played a quick (and spoiled) shadow of your start, got HBR and 3 cities by 1000bc and a stack of ten NC by 1ad which would be enough for an early war. I didn't pursue this as the game was already spoiled and I was busy with other stuff but it did demonstrate that NC would have been an option.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Why didn't I try for the diplomatic win? Well, based upon the SG voting, I really didn't think I'd win. In fact, with Huayna being in the running for a space race win, I thought he'd abstain.

You are giving the AI too much credit. Even in 2.08, the AI doesn't have very much "will this cost me the game" built into it. The diplo vote is simply "Which candidate do I have the best relations with? It is higher than my voting threshold?" The AI is compelled to vote for you, under the right conditions, even when one turn away from a victory of its own.

Yup, the Internet is a really big deal when you are behind two or three civs in the tech race.

If you poke around at the various AI cities, you'll probably see why Blake felt a need to rip apart the Natural Wonder selection routines. Kyoto is pulling in 37 base gold per turn, but because the Hermitage was built there, Wall Street is instead being build in Satsuma. Tiwanaku has 41 base gold, but built the Hermitage and Ironworks (on 13 base production!)

The best of the AI cities for production are Susa (40 base) and Perseopolis (32 base).

 

[Sisiutil]

i'm the 'this is my land, that land is your land (until i decide you die)' type.

This land is my land
This land ain't your land
I've got a shotgun
And you ain't got one
If you don't get off
I'll blow your head off
This land is private properteeeeeeee...

Some of us might consider replacing Baba Yetu with this jaunty little ditty...

The best of the AI cities for production are Susa (40 base) and Perseopolis (32 base).

Yeah, and I'm convinced that's mainly because Cyrus happened to have the most and the best land on that continent. This is why I almost always beat the AI to the space ship. (1) I don't get sidelined by techs I don't need and (2) I'm better at creating production cities, or converting cities into them.

 

[patagonia]

The next game will get us back on the anal-retentive alphabetical track: Japan and Tokugawa. It'll be at Monarch level still, but at Epic speed to ensure I get more use out of the UU than in this game. I'll start it sometime next week.

Congratulations on the win. You may not have led in tech for much of the game, but you did when it mattered and that's the important thing.

The only civ I've ever intentionally beelined a horse-archer rush with is Mongolia, when I've researched HBR before Alphabet and spammed Keshiks from 3-4 cities until my neighbour is dead. Unless the RNGod is particularly vindictive, you'll lose at most one per archer taking cities, but they're a better unit than Numidian Cavalry and have the mobility to quickly take out the enemy metal supply.

Looking forward to the next ALC, but consider this a plea to stick to normal speed. Samurai are based on macemen which means they have a long window of usefulness in an era when war is generally advisable, so you don't need to tinker with the settings to get the most out of them.

Get used to those unhealthy power plants too, if you're going to be exploiting his UB!

 

[KMadCandy]

Some of us might consider replacing Baba Yetu with this jaunty little ditty...

Yeah, and I'm convinced that's mainly because Cyrus happened to have the most and the best land on that continent. This is why I almost always beat the AI to the space ship. (1) I don't get sidelined by techs I don't need and (2) I'm better at creating production cities, or converting cities into them.

oh that song is too funny, i've never heard that version! that attitude is very me in civ4. my favorite thing is to block someone off my part of the map using a panama-canal-city so that i have access to both sides of the ocean. but i <3 baba yetu. i even modded warlords to start with the vanilla intro and stuff (i think using hints you posted maybe), until i started using HOF mod.

converting cities into production cities is something i've never done. in fact, be sure you're sitting down for this part ... i have never used state property, ever ever. i've built like 6 workshops in my entire civ4 life. then again i've only won by space race once i think since i started playing again. i should aim for that sometime soon. my current game tho, i'm KMao and cho-ko-nus are hella fun!

 

[carl corey]

Congrats Sisiutil! Nice job again! I don't think I've ever used the Internet before but I see it's something to really consider.

As for production cities, KMad, below are some of my production monsters. Using State Property was probably one of the reasons I managed a successful pass from Prince to Monarch. Late game huge empires really benefit from it, and I wouldn't dream of going for Space Race victory without a production monster like that. I've even workshopped full grown cottages or over resources just to max the production sometimes.

 

[jerVL/kg]

and another note to jerVL/kg ... i already thought you were crazy, and now you add in liking archipelago maps? sheesh! i personally don't like them, i'm the 'this is my land, that land is your land (until i decide you die)' type.

Hey, I'm the same way...even though I like isolated, pacifist games, there always comes a time when I think, "Hmm, I've got this army sitting around doing nothing...hey! Isabella's got cows! I could sure use those..." Or whales. Lately in my games, any civ that owns whales is the first to get attacked...

I just think Archipelago maps look way cool. Regular Continents just forms these two amorphous blobs...fugly. Come to think, maybe a Fractal map would work? It's the same as Continents, but the land masses look much more interesting.

converting cities into production cities is something i've never done. in fact, be sure you're sitting down for this part ... i have never used state property, ever ever. i've built like 6 workshops in my entire civ4 life.

Wow! I don't think I could live without my +1 workshops & watermills...

 

[DarkFyre99]

congrats on your win... and once again thanks for doing these threads. I still learn new things, and I'm finally getting almost comfortable on Prince.

Ironically enough, the RNG for the game I just started pulled up Hannibal for me and Tokugawa happened to be at the tip of a peninsula to my East, allowing me to choke him off to five cities.

Made sure I beelined for NCs, so they took the one city he managed to sneak past my expanding borders and razed the desert city on my border. They then pulled back destroyed his raiders as they crossed the desert between me and him, while I researched catapults to take out his second best city, and now trebuchets to take Kyoto because he now has longbowmen.

They are very useful in taking out the barbarians that keep sweeping in from the tundra to the south.

 

[jerVL/kg]

As for production cities, KMad, below are some of my production monsters. Using State Property was probably one of the reasons I managed a successful pass from Prince to Monarch. Late game huge empires really benefit from it, and I wouldn't dream of going for Space Race victory without a production monster like that. I've even workshopped full grown cottages or over resources just to max the production sometimes.

Funny how none of those city names match the civilization who owns them...

 

[carl corey]

Funny how none of those city names match the civilization who owns them...

Well... ugh... umm... Yeah, what can I say, they were gifts.....

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

As for production cities, KMad, below are some of my production monsters.

Bragshots of production centers should really show base hammers.

 

[carl corey]

Eh, I was just showing the tiles for State Property's effect, not the production output written there. They all have Ironworks in them so of course they're very pumped up.

 

[Winston Hughes]

The win:

The thread:

The song:

Cyrus:

 

[aelf]

you play so fast, aelf is way behind you now. he began emc4 before this game, and you finished first

Are you complaining?!

 

[johnny_rico]

nice win. It's nice to see the power of the Internet , in the game I mean. I didn't think you'd be able to pull it off. But here we see the late game inefficiency of the AI. You simply steamrolled Cyrus on production (and the rest of them).

I'll echo patagonia's comments on playing normal speed with toku. The samurai have a very long window of usefulness. Especially if you're cranking them out by 1 AD, which is very possible. Oracle > metal casting, speed towards civil service and use a GE for machinery. Musketman/knights are their first real counter and they perform quite well against them. X-bows fair ok against them but the AI doesn't seem to make many.

I suppose that discussion will be pertinent when you fire up the next ALC. Great job, again.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Go ahead with Epic. IMO, it's just a better speed overall. It is true that he'll have samurai sooner, but he'll also be without them longer. I wonder if the UB will even make an appearance. Toku's total military bent lends itself to ending the game with early gunpowder units....they really ought to have a builder leader for Japan..

 

[flamingzaroc121]

Are you complaining?!

Maybe

 

[cabert]

I'm an addict of the internet rush when going for space.
Why?
Because the AI won't trade spaceship parts tech anyway

For the next ALC, you're the boss, and do wht you want.
But I hate slow speed.

 

[Armor (Veteran)]

Sisiutil, since you're moving from some "standard" to "favorite" settings for the next game (i.e. epic speed instead of normal), any chance the ALC will ever change to fractal maps as well?

I know things need to stay somewhat standard to compare the leaders, but the standard continents tends to lead to similiar strategies due to the unvaried terrain. There's almost always two big blobs from pole to pole with flat coastlines, with 4 civs on one and 3 on the other.

Fractal is usually continents-like, but much more interesting (irregular coast, choke-points, etc. It would be more fun to figure out how the leader can take advantage of the particular cards they are dealt. There'd be a greater chance of conquering someone just because they had terrain suited to your civ's unique abilities. As it is leaders who thrive in coastal environments tend to be a bit underpowered.

Didn't fractal used to be the old continents script anyway? I know I stopped playing continents as soon as Fractal was introduced

 

[rustydusty10]

Who will be the next ALC leader?