ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

[Sisiutil]

I thought the Internet, Apollo and SS parts are classified as projects and therefore can't be hurried.

Exactly. You can whip something else and have the hammer overflow go towards a project, though. However, I think I've done enough civics changes in this game, so a change back to slavery seems unlikely. I may still have to do one more switch to US later on, for the extra hammers from towns; I chose Representation for the research boost from specialists, and because I had no gold for rush-buying anything.

 

[Syndrome Zed]

I wouldn't risk it. The AI can be remarkably stingy when it comes to techs, and Shaka will likely vassalize himself to Tokugawa, which will put you in DEEP doo-doo. On the other hand, if you're feeling spunky and think you can fend off another Toku invasion, why not go for it? (Hmm...we never did capture Shaka's Pyramids, did we??)

I agree. The greatest probability outcome is Shaka sending enough units at you, even though they may be suicidal, to increase your war weariness unhappiness enough to drag you down into the trough of the wave at a time when you want to focus on riding the crest of it into space. And the odds of him giving up rapidly or giving up rocketry without you having to take 3 or 4 more cities are fairly low. I've had very little success with blitzkrieg-like mini-wars since the Warlords patch. The AI seems to be much more persevering in spite of overwhelming odds these days....and all it does is slow us down.

 

[pigswill]

One of the factors is going to be how quickly you can make your new cities productive. You may be able to catch up production and if internet allows you to catch up research then you may have a chance. On the other hand you are a bit behind so its by no means certain. I guess its high research until fibre optics then 0 research to cash rush useful builds (factories, labs etc).

 

[Validator]

Sisuitil,

My initial thought was that addition of the Mongolian lands might have come too late to make a difference, however on closer inspection I think you've got an excellent chance at a space race win. In fact you shouldn't even have to resort to sabotage or nuking.

I was initially concerned that Cyrus and HC might be significantly more advanced that the foreign advisor tech screen shows (since you won't see any techs they have which you don't have pre-requisistes for). Then I realized that Cyrus doesn't have Fission, and HC doesn't have Flight and neither has Refrigeration (which they need for Genetics). This makes me think that they probably don't have much beyond what is on the screen now.

The tech screen shows that at your current research rate Fiber Optics, its pre-reqs and Rocketry would take a combined 30 turns. But with some pre-req discounts that you'll pick up, plus increasing contributions from your Mongolian cities, and maybe building Research in some cities it seems that Fiber Optics will be done in 20 to 22 turns. Old Sarai at that point should be able to build the Internet in 10 turns or less, so about 30 turns until you're basically even with the AI in tech.

There's a good chance Cyrus and HC won't even have all the space ship techs by the time you finish Internet. You would be even with them (or maybe ahead ) in starting the most expensive of the parts. They'll have a big lead in building the cheaper parts, but you have enough secondary production cities that can build the cheapies while your best cities are building the big ticket items.

It won't be a very early space race win, but I really don't see any of the AIs coming close. For that reason I would try to stay peaceful until the end. Then again I may be wrong and Cyrus may be more advanced than I surmise (I don't really consider HC a threat at this point because of limited production and no aluminum).

A couple of little things to think about when you restart: I would emphasize growth in Old Sarai for a while. Its only at size 11 at this point and it needs to grow to 18 to make maximum use of its tiles. If I calculated right its capable of over 60 base hammers at that size . Also I noticed that a couple of Karakorum's towns got assigned to the little city to its north even though that city has no commerce multiplier buildings .

 

[Eggolas]

It's a space race, in my opinion, one which you can win if you leverage your territory and production. Certainly the Internet will be of prime importance, but having the base production will also be critical.

Identify the cities that need to specialize production and those that need to provide research and commerce.

I have not opened the file, so I don't have a good sense for precisely how advanced Cyrus is or what his production cities are capable of achieving. I suppose my optimism may be misplaced, but perhaps a few spies would be in order, just in case.

[I wonder how many turns have been used to change civics and whether they really made a strategic difference, as opposed to a tactical difference, during the war.]

Good luck. Nothing like having a cliffhanger to make the forum interesting!

 

[patagonia]

Well, by now it would take 2 turns to change 2 civics, even on Normal speed.

When does that change kick in? Is it linked to game date, or empire size?

As far as civics in this game go, one last switch to US is almost certainly a good idea, especially before you trigger a golden age so that you get bonus hammers from every town.

In terms of specialising production, you've got 14 workers which means you can build 2 watermills/lumbermills (or 3 workshops) and one railroad a turn. That'll easily be enough to develop 2-3 production powerhouses by the time you're ready to crank out the parts as long as you focus their efforts.

 

[cabert]

When does that change kick in? Is it linked to game date, or empire size?

As far as civics in this game go, one last switch to US is almost certainly a good idea, especially before you trigger a golden age so that you get bonus hammers from every town.

In terms of specialising production, you've got 14 workers which means you can build 2 watermills/lumbermills (or 3 workshops) and one railroad a turn. That'll easily be enough to develop 2-3 production powerhouses by the time you're ready to crank out the parts as long as you focus their efforts.

It's empire size (population if i'm not mistaken) that makes the switches longer.

And I agree that you certainly need the hammer from towns more than the 3 beakers from those non existing specialists.

 

[aelf]

It's empire size (population if i'm not mistaken) that makes the switches longer.

I have the impression that it's related to the number of years that elapse between each turn.

 

[pax]

Something that worries me....

I agree that the Internet is the path to technological salvation. There's no doubt about that. And, obviously, it's good to prioritize that path so as to get to the Internet first. But! There's the problem of the UN. You have no need to go after the UN, as it would be a waste of hammers at this point. That said, you will need to worry about winning the Secretary-General-ship. Your population will help, but you'll definitely need a few other votes. And you really want that position.

Why do you need to be Secretary-General of the UN? Because you need to prevent any votes against nukes. If you're going to keep a few nukes in your back pocket in case Cyrus or Huyana get too close to making a run for the Outer Rim, you need to prevent that vote. Sure, it can happen later, once you've built a few ICBMs, but you definitely need to stave off that vote until you have your arsenal of democracy operational. Something to consider for the future.

 

[carl corey]

Ugh, nukes cost a lot to build. I'd rather have spies and build Space Ship parts than build the Manhattan Project and nukes. Cheaper and more clearly toward our goal.

Btw, pax, nice sig.

 

[johnny_rico]

Ugh, nukes cost a lot to build. I'd rather have spies and build Space Ship parts than build the Manhattan Project and nukes. Cheaper and more clearly toward our goal.

Btw, pax, nice sig.

Quite true. Still, I'm curious to know if you could achieve victory with a backdoor diplomatic victory by nuking your oppostions population. Too bad there's not a psychopath/megalomaniacal victory, that hasn't been achieved in the ALC's yet.

 

[Sisiutil]

Too bad there's not a psychopath/megalomaniacal victory, that hasn't been achieved in the ALC's yet.

And it would be appropriate, wouldn't it?

 

[jerVL/kg]

But! There's the problem of the UN. You have no need to go after the UN, as it would be a waste of hammers at this point. That said, you will need to worry about winning the Secretary-General-ship. Your population will help, but you'll definitely need a few other votes.

Sisiutil has 33% of the world's population, and will likely top 40% once his newly captured cities start growing, so I wouldn't be too concerned about losing the UNSG chair. Certainly, it's a mistake to build the UN yourself, since that will make Cyrus your opponent, a worst-case scenario. (He's probably got more friends than you do, the brown-nosing mooch.)

In my experience, the AI doesn't bother with the UN once they're committed to a space race...but they WILL build it if they're way behind on space techs, especially if Broadway/R&R are already built. (The rationale, I suppose, being a shot at winning by Diplomacy if Space isn't possible...regardless of whether anyone likes them or not. ) I'll wager that if anyone builds the UN, it'll be Tokugawa -- in fact, you might consider gifting Radio (or trading it on the cheap) to him so he'll commit to that beeline. Up to you, of course.

Dang it, you guys have me thinking about buying Warlords just so I can download the save and check all the fine details...

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

It looks to me as though the development of the Old Serai and New Serai needs some revision.

1) The workers need to be teamed. Not merely paired, but teamed. 1 improvement on turn 1, and another improvement on turn 2, is better than no improvements on turn 1, and 2 improvements on turn 2.

2) It's not a problem to be 10 below the happy cap. It is a problem that you cannot correct that in 10 turns. These cities need to grow grow grow grow. Careful of the unworkable tiles, though - your target sizes are smaller than normal.

3) Remember: workshops and watermills don't need time to develop. Farms first to hit the growth curve, then start adding the improved replacements.

 

[Armor (Veteran)]

Another reason winning the UN Secretary-Generalship is important is to keep the AI from forcing you to environmentalism. That ruined my workshop-driven ironworks city one game.

 

[Sisiutil]

I played the final round last night. The game ended in 1950 AD. I'll post the update tonight.

 

[pax]

I played the final round last night. The game ended in 1950 AD. I'll post the update tonight.

Interesting that Sisiutil didn't say "I won in 1950." Or am I parsing words too carefully?

Btw, pax, nice sig.

Thanks. Especially in Civ, I find it important to remember to adjust my perspective according to the goals I'm after.

 

[thefais]

Interesting that Sisiutil didn't say "I won in 1950." Or am I parsing words too carefully?

Have more faith in our fearless All-leader Challenger!

 

[Welnic]

Well, if he posted that he won, then nobody would bother to check out the update, would they.

 

[Sisiutil]

Interesting that Sisiutil didn't say "I won in 1950." Or am I parsing words too carefully?

No, you're not. I like to think I know how to build a little suspense.