ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

[futurehermit]

anyone seen what city raider 3 grens do to longbows?

and yes, land is power, yes it is

 

[Pe Ell]

"Sun Tzu said: In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns."

Quoting makes I look smart.
Do we actaully have the troops to finish of Mehmed within a reasonable timeframe? I'm all for crushing him but regrouping has seldom hurt. And the sooner we can lay our hands on those Samurais the better. I want to see them in action!

 

[Sisiutil]

Why switch into Org Rel (in 125 AD) when your economy is on war footing?.

One possible answer is that you are expecting to whip a lot of infrastructure in the captured cities, and you want to take advantage of the fact that they are already converted to your religion. I would expect Sisiutil to remark upon this were he deliberately being that clever.

The double swap cost an extra turn of anarchy, so the only savings was one of timing. Since you don't really need it until Ankara comes out of anarchy, it could wait.

Well, the current domestic advisor is somewhat deceiving. Prior to this, I was building a mix of military and infrastructure in my cities--granaries, forges, lighthouses, and so on. So the OR bonus was definitely helpful.

I kept OR because, as jerVL/kg asserted, it isn't worth the 2 turns of anarchy to switch to anything else at this point, and I may need to produce some Missionaries soon besides.

So it sounds like the consensus is to trade Civil Service for Feudalism and Machinery to get Samurai ASAP while continuing the war against Mehmed. I agree. I also don't mind the farms around Istanbul--I will likely attempt to produce a Great Prophet there, so the farms will be helpful at first. They'll get gradually converted to cottages so the city will be converted to commerce once the GP appears.

I'm thinking of leaving Guilds alone for now since the AI likes to research it. Either Julius or Freddy will likely get it first, and I should be able to trade Philosophy to them for it. So after the trades, I think Engineering and then Optics make the most sense.

 

[aelf]

City Raider 3 gives the unit a 10% bonus vs gunpowder units.

Didn't know that. Thanks.

Except it doesn't have a bonus against rifles and would actually have to survive long enough to get the XP it needs, always a dicey prospect where siege is concerned. It also doesn't start with Combat 1 like any promoted Samurai will...

I did say they don't get the bonus against rifles. But you get collateral damage in return. Seriously, I would rather have 10 cannons and several fresh grenadiers than 5 cannons and several CR III grenadiers. More cannons will take you further. Your CR III grenades will spend time cowering until the odds are 80+%. And you pay lots of money to upgrade them. Your fresh grenadiers start with a few free promotions anyway. Just build them and focus on getting more cannons asap.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5, Part 1: 575 AD to 1130 AD

I started the round by implementing a number of the tech trades suggested by posters after the last round. The first one was to accelerate the arrival of the UU, Samurai:



This earned me the dreaded "We fear you are becoming too advanced" tech-trading block from Caesar. It's actually one of the few times I've encountered it. This became something of a pain as Caesar gradually became the tech leader, obliging me to research techs I would otherwise usually trade for, such as Guilds.

Frederick remained more open to negotiations, though slightly less useful:



Feudalism revealed that Mehmed was not considering capitulation just yet. I also realized it would be several turns before I could have the Samurai completed and moved into position, so...



No, he wouldn't cough up Music, but the gold would help keep my research going at a decent rate through the brief interval of peace. And I started researching Engineering, anticipating Pikemen (Mehmed would, doubtless, re-pasture his horses), Trebuchets, and the extra road movement point. I began building Samurai in just about every city.

A few turns later, Kyoto produced its next Great Scientist. I used him to lightbulb Philosophy. As suggested, I sent a Hindu Missionary to Kagoshima, so Magyar became the holy city:



I had occasion to utilize Philosophy not long after:



Evidently, Frederick has a higher WFYABTA limit than Caesar. Good to know, and good for me. However, Frederick's research began to lag as the round progressed, no doubt because, at least in part, of the maintenance costs he's paying for those distant southwestern cities. Moron.

In 755 AD, I had all my Samurai 1 turn from completion in my city's build queues, along with several Longbowmen, Crossbowmen, and War Elephants. So it was time to change civics and churn them out:



I produced a half dozen Samurai on the next turn, and sent them all chuggin' north to Istanbul, there to join an equal number of Catapults. I also upgraded my existing Combat 1/Woodsman II Axeman and 2 Swordsmen to Samurai as well. With some War Elephants and Crossbows, I had a pretty decent stack o' doom. So, it was time to visit Mehmed and deliver the bad news:



I managed to keep my "Pleased" ratings with Caesar and Freddy despite this. However, Frederick later converted to Confucianism, and I now have a "close borders" diplomatic demerit with him on top of the different religion hit, so he soon dropped to "Cautious" with me. As he's becoming less useful as a tech-trading partner, I didn't mind much. He also remained behind me in power, while Caesar stayed even.

As my stack lumbered towards Edirne, I was switching production in my cities to a mix of infrastructure (such as a much-needed Market in the capital) or units such as Trebuchets and Longbowmen. Trebuchets are usually suicide units, so I don't care much if they get additional XPs and promotions from civics or not. And since I'm protective, my Longbowmen will have City Garrison II thanks to barracks, which is plenty for city defense. All this meant that I felt it was time to change my legal civic back so that Kyoto could do some of the heavy lifting:



On the next turn, I captured my next Ottoman city:



This earned me a couple of wonders:



I normally don't build either one of those, but they're always nice to capture. Barbs aren't really a problem anymore, but I am planning on razing some cities to avoid excessive maintenance costs. This will likely lead to some fogged areas where barbs will no doubt spawn, so it's good to know that they won't be entering my territory.

Plus I now get that nifty GG bonus when I kill enemy units within my own territory. Which I soon had to do; Mehmed sent a small stack at Istanbul, where I had several units hunkered down. I threw a Catapult at the stack, and his own attack failed (thanks in part to a Wall I whipped in the city). His stack broke up to pillage after that, which allowed the city defenders to come out and pick them off on open ground. Fun!

In the meantime, I had researched Compass and Optics, playing catch-up with Caesar on both techs. I soon had a couple of Caravels out exploring, and began to meet the other civilizations out there:



Ah, one of Civ's not-so-friendly neighbourhood religious fanatics. And useless for tech trading to boot. Wonderful.

Back home, my stack captured their last Ottoman city:



I decided to raze both Gaziantep and Samsun, since they didn't claim any resources and would only add to my maintenance burden.

Elsewhere, Caesar beat me in the circumnavigation race. That wasn't really a surprise, since he beat me to Optics by several turns. Should I have researched Compass and Optics before Engineering? I don't really think so; the increased road movement meant that my war against the Ottomans proceeded that much faster, and that was the primary goal. Plus, as you'll see, I don't think the circumnavigation bonus will be as crucial as usual.

I mean, look who else is out there:



Again, pretty much useless for tech trading, and automatically "Annoyed" over religion as soon as I meet her. Sheesh. Women!

In 1130 AD, my stack finished off Mehmed:



Surprisingly, Mehmed never did capitulate to either Caesar or Frederick. I still would have finished him off, of course, but that would have led to complications back in my core cities.

I earned my 2nd Great General as a result of this final battle. I already had one that I used for a Medic III Horse Archer (who earned Morale for the extra movement point a little later). So we'll need to talk about how to use him.

The Samurai have not really had a hard time of it thus far, thanks to several Catapults and, later, Trebuchets. Their one moment to shine was in the attack on Gaziantep. The city was weakly defended, by 2 Longbowmen and a Pikeman IIRC. However, it was also on a hill. I had used up all my Catapults save for my 4 Accuracy units, and my Trebuchets were still making their way to the front. I stripped the defenses and then had my CRII Samurai attack the Longbowmen, fortified in a city on a hill and still at full health. The Samurai had roughly 40% odds. The first Samurai won! The second died and, to my disappointment, did no damage whatsoever to his Longbow opponent. The third Samurai attacked with the same 40% victory odds... and won! I can't help but put that incredible luck down to the 2 first strikes the units get.

Also on this, the last turn of the round, my Carvel encountered a Trireme from the last civilization I had yet to meet:



Ah, my nemesis from the Carthage game! So Kublai is a little more open-minded than the other two, but is one of the "slow kids", if you catch my drift. Maybe he'll loosen up in a while and trade me Theology. Maybe.

So that's how things went. To see where things stand, I'll follow this round update with a "state of the world" post shortly. Below is the saved game file.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 5, Part 2: The State of the World, 1130 AD

Just FYI, let's start with a look at the civics I'm running:



Not a lot of options available yet there. I may be able to get Banking in a while for Mercantilism.

The Domestic Advisor:



So a mix of military and domestic builds. I definitely need more courthouses, markets, and grocers to get my economy back on track. I should also build the Forbidden Palace soon. Where should it go? I was thinking either Istabul, Edirne, or Bursa.

Foreign relations:



So Caesar is my only friend, and he won't tech trade with me because of WFYABTA. D'OH! I'm thinking I should cultivate Kublai Khan. If he had a little more gold, I'd throw him a tech like Music cheap. Maybe I should anyway--if I can get him from Cautious to Pleased, he might be willing to trade Theology.

In a bit of good news on the diplomatic front, relations between my two neighbours are now strained:





So whichever one I war upon next should not result, I hope, in a demerit from the other. I may even be able to draw the other into the conflict for some mutual military struggle bonuses.

Here's a look at the overall tech board:



And a look at techs vis-a-vis Frederick:



And versus Caesar:



So I'm lagging a bit, but I really just need to build infrastructure such as libraries, courthouses, and markets so my economy is back on its feet. I'm pursuing the Liberalism race; I'll have a GS in Kyoto soon who can lightbulb most of Education. The only competition I have for Liberalism is Frederick, who may or may not be researching Education as well; remember I traded Philosophy to him a while back.

Active trades:



Here's the power chart:



As I said, Caesar and I are neck-and-neck, while Frederick is lagging.

Top 5 cities:



Demographics:



Last in GNP still, but first in several other categories. Things look good for the long term, I think.

The map, with resources:



And without:



And a preliminary look at the other continent(s):



I suspect that there are at least two continents, with at least one civ--Brennus?--isolated. This would explain their relative backwardness due to a lack of tech trading partners, though Brennus' and Isabella's distrust of those following different faiths would also help account for it.

So we have a few discussion points to wrangle over.

War: Who's next, Frederick or Caesar? Both are pretty close to me in score, techs, and power, though Caesar is obviously more of a match.

Caesar won't tech trade with me, so the only way to get him to cough up anything would be in a peace settlement. He's further from my core cities and therefore less of a threat to them, though he's uncomfortably close to Istanbul 's choice land and Edirne's wonders. He has several wonders (the Parthenon, the Great Lighthouse) which will be obsolete in a few turns--it might be nice to get something out of them. His UU's day has pretty much come and gone, but he does have Knights and I'm lacking enough Pikemen to counter them. Right now he's my only friend because of our shared faith. My stack is already close to his cities.

Frederick will trade techs, but I currently have nothing to offer him. He may be chasing after Liberalism, in which case it may be good to take some of his core cities to slow him down. He is obviously weaker than Caesar and an easier target; then again, that may mean he can wait until later, especially since he has such a late UU. I'll face a war on several fronts with Frederick.

It's kind of a toss-up, but I'm leaning towards Caesar. I think it makes sense to go after my strongest rival, and soon. My stack can quickly pounce on Arretium, razing it. Then I'd capture Pisae to take counter-attack pressure off of Istanbul. After that, I would head through the remaining Roman cities counter-clockwise.

National Wonders: I have several of these that I should build soon. The question is where?

The Forbidden Palace will help the economy; it should go in one of the northern Ottoman cities. I'm thinking either Edirne or Bursa.

The Heroic Epic should be built soon. I have a Great General who can become a Military Instructor there or, assuming I get Education in a few turns, build Military Academy (which should it be?). So which city should be my military city? Most of the Ottoman cities are going to be commerce cities. I know Tokyo is far from any fighting, but I think it's the best candidate. Remember that when I fight the Germans, I'll be fighting some battles close to home.

The National Epic should also be built soon, and I'm leaning towards Istanbul for it. I have some workers converting farms to cottages around that city, but I can stop them. I need to generate a Great Prophet to build the Hindu shrine in Istanbul. I'm thinking of reassigning Kyoto's scientists to tiles once the next GS appears, then sending Confucian and Taoist missionaries to Istanbul so I can load up on temples and priest specialists. Should I bother building Angkor Wat there? I don't have stone, and frankly, I think Freddy is building it for me right now. Temples and Cathedrals seem like better options, so I can generate the GP from specialists. I'd like to get two Great Prophets, one for the Taoist shrine as well. After that, the fewer wonders there are in Istanbul, the more likely I can generate the Great People I want and need there.

Techs: Does everyone think Liberalism is worthwhile? I do. I'm leaning towards Astronomy for it. Why? First off, to boost my GPT with income from trades with the other three civs. Second, for the Observatories to boost my research. Third, I could probably trade it to Freddy for several techs that he will no doubt have on me by then.

Victory condition: If I can conquer my continent, it looks like this game will be in the bag. The other three civs don't appear to be much of a threat. I'm leaning towards a domination win, and as early as possible. This could be my highest-scoring game yet!

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Lovely little continent they got there, eh? Always nice to know the civs on the other continent are backwards hicks and not speeding through the tech tree faster than you can say "Mansa Musa." Really, that's quite lucky actually. Caesar's the most tempermental civ on your continent, and I'm sure Brennus and Kublai don't exactly have a warm relationship with Miss Burns-Heretics-at-Stakes there. Kublai might be able to be swayed if you butter him up some though.

That said, once you finish up Freddie and JC, domination shouldn't be too difficult. The grumpy fanatic bunch figures to be horribly backward....

 

[ratrangerm]

Will be interesting to see the situation on the other continent once you get to that point... one would tjhink Izzy and Brennus have been at each other's throats, given their religious fanaticism.

Also, they're behind you in tech, as is Kublai. So it looks like it's just a matter of taking over your own continent, then dealing with the others at your leisure. The only one who might get on good terms with Caesar is Kublai. Izzy and Brennus are likely to remain Cautious at best, more likely to become Annoyed.

EDIT: As far as who to target next, Caesar might be your better option. You have the Hindu holy city, so you can spy on most of his cities and know how well defended they are, and to an extent, you might know what other forces he has. If you target Caesar, pillaging his resources will be high on the list, so you should get at least a few Knights for that, then add Pikemen to your stack that will attack cities, so Knights can't overwhelm it.

Freddy would be the easier target, but going after him first could risk that Caesar jumps further ahead in tech, meaning he will be harder to take down later on. Getting to Liberalism first would be nice, but given that Caesar so close to you in terms of power and is ahead in tech, I think it would be better to target him and set him back, and if Freddy gets to Liberalism first, so be it, as it still won't give him a huge advantage in technology. And more than likely, if Freddy gets to Lib first, he'll pursue something that either gets him closer to Riflemen, or something that gets him closer to Democracy and Universal Suffrage.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

It May be awhile before you capture it but Antium looks like a good candidate for the FP ( i say you should attack JC next)

 

[cabert]

freddy is next in score, he is tech leader and going to beat you to liberalism : good target IMHO

 

[carl corey]

Whoever you decide to attack, just be careful: Caesar has a stack in Magyar that you'll have to take care of, and Fred has a couple of War Elephants and a Horse Archer wandering south. When you go to war against one of them just be sure it doesn't make those units pop near one of your lightly defended cities.

As for choice of targets: I vote for Freddy too. The two SW cities don't matter. He doesn't have enough production in them to kick you from behind. Just build a couple of units and be ready to counter anything he sends your way until you take his core cities. I don't really care if he beats you to Liberalism or not. In one game I killed the AI that got Liberalism and Economics first and I sooo didn't care about how advanced he was. You'll miss some freebies if he beats you to those races, but you'll still have enough in your favor.

As for National Wonders, I know this might go counter your idea of using Istanbul as a commerce/GPs city, but how about building Heroic Epic/Globe Theater in it and adding an MI too? It could become an awesome draft/whip city, and it's close to both war fronts. You're going for Domination after all! And in case you decide for this just go with National Epic in Kyoto to boost those free Scientists that you get from the Great Library. After Education you'll be able to lightbulb Printing Press on your way to Rifles, and an intercontinental invasion at that point should easily give you the win. Oh, and Astronomy will give you Galleons, much more important than Observatories since you'll be teching far ahead of anyone on the other continent(s) anyway.

 

[pigswill]

On the other hand Jules is more likely to backstab you; if you don't get him as an ally you should be mindful that Fred may bribe him against you.

You could try something radical; wipe out Jules then co-exist peacefully with Fred while racing towards space. I suspect if you don't annihilate Jules then sooner or later he'll try wiping you out.

 

[PMabey]

Attack Freddy first, Caesar's your only friend so he might as well stay that way for a while. Take all of his cities to the East, you can leave those 2 crappy ones to the SW of you. That will give you a chance to launch an invasion of Caesar later on from 2 fronts - Hamburg and Edrine/Bursa.

You wont need to worry about the others getting near to victory so a domination win will be the best i think. You'll probably find that you'll face very outdated units when you attack Izzy/Brennus/Kublai.

 

[Harbourboy]

Fascinating stuff. Looks like you are well on track. Are you definitely going for Domination then?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I'd kill JC. Freddie is just going to sit around and twiddle his thumbs, in all likelihood. You would then have Freddie engulfed and he'd crumple like a house of cards, as you'd effectively have three invasion routes. I'd actually leave the southwest for last...it's the weak link of his empire, and unlikely to threaten you. JC, on the other hand, is less reliable and you're pressing the dreaded "WFYABTA" limit with him anyways. He's the only threatening opponent left, crush him, and, given the tendency for the three civs across the pond, they're likely to become progressively more backward, which means the game is all but won with JC out of the picture. Be Tokugawa...fearlessly crush your opponents and prove Japanese intellectual superiority by teching everyone else into the ground on your own power....it looks like your trading partners would benefit more anyways...

 

[jerVL/kg]

I vote JC next. He will only get more powerful as time goes on, and he's less likely to capitulate to Freddy than vice versa. Freddy's not going anywhere -- he still hasn't cleared out all that jungle, for cripes' sake. And JC has some nice shiny wonders; Parthenon will be obsolete once you capture it, but TGL still has a lot of life left.

While Liberalism would be nice, what do you plan to get for it? Astronomy? Wheee. You're getting Education soon, so it's worth considering. On the other hand, once you get Edu & Astro you'll be tempted to fall into "builder mode" for all those new improvement...which, on this map, is a bad idea. Better, I think, to beeline Gunpowder & Chemistry instead, and take out JC with those CR3 Grenadiers...Knights are no problem vs. Grennies!

Interesting how Izzy founded Christianity (apparently) but she's Jewish instead, while her neighbors all went Xtian...send some missionaries over to Kublai and convert him, with luck he will start trading techs then. (You sure hit the WFYABTA limit early in this game, I didn't think your trades were that excessive -- is the limit lower on Monarch?)

BTW, whenever I sent out my first Caravels I always build Explorers to go with them. This is a Fractal map, so it's likely there's some undiscovered goodie huts on isolated islands out there, somewhere. I've popped Astronomy from a hut more times than you can imagine.

If you're going to make Istanbul your GP farm, leave the farms alone. Don't bother with Angkor Wat, too painful to build w/o stone. Build temples & cathedrals for the priests you'll need, followed by National Epic & Globe. Edirne should get Forbidden Palace (Istanbul would be the better choice, but it's already got 2 wonders planned for it) or wait and build it in one of JC's cities later. Heroic Epic? Hmm...I always build it in my second most productive city (i.e. not where you plan to build Ironworks) and without looking at the save I can only guess where that is -- Osaka, perhaps? Or maybe Konya?

This has been a fun game to read...keep up the good work!

 

[jerVL/kg]

Another thing...you're trading with Freddy for Bananas & Sugar, which you'll lose temporarily if you declare on him, and only get back once you take his cities, leaving you with a net gain of nothing. (You'll have to raze his wine city & replace it...what a crappy location!) JC, on the other hand, has Silk, Wine, Crabs, Sheep, Whale and COPPER -- a much nicer bounty! Plus, Freddy has War Elephants, which will give your pillaging Knights lots of grief.

Speaking of whales...were you planning on building a new city in the far south to harvest them? Don't know if you can afford yet another city at this point, but it would be nice to get some use out of whales during their short lifespan.

 

[Sisiutil]

BTW, whenever I sent out my first Caravels I always build Explorers to go with them. This is a Fractal map, so it's likely there's some undiscovered goodie huts on isolated islands out there, somewhere. I've popped Astronomy from a hut more times than you can imagine.

You'll be glad to know that my lone surviving Scout is indeed on one of my two rambling Caravels.

I doubt I'll convert Kublai; he has Christianity's holy city. Take a closer look at the score display. I stand a better chance of converting Brennus--but what for?

As for JC's resources, I, too, have sheep, wine, and silk, but you're right, he does have some nice things I don't.

 

[patagonia]

Based on the logic that Mehmed was target number 1 since he posed the biggest threat, Caesar should be target number 2 for the same reason. Get a few more pikes built and turn on him before your nicely promoted Samurai start to get bored.

I'd favour using your GG as a military instructor in the HE city (once it's selected). Then you can pump pikes with formation there without needing to swap civics (and later rifles to nerf any cavalry you encounter on the quest for domination).

At a guess, the other 3 civs are spread over 2 continents: Kublai and Brennus on a Christian bloc, with Isabella isolated. We'll know more by the end of the next round, but you may only need to invade Spain to secure the land you need to put this one to bed.

 

[Melon Head]

My money's also on taking out JC. If you can plant the FP up in Mehmed's lands, the distance from your current capitol won't be that important, so I would just go with the target with the best lands. Sure, Fred is closer, but you haven't reached WFYABTA with him (do you know if that will wear off eventually?), so there's a slim chance you can trade some tech from him before killing him to secure your continent.

Also, taking out JC will cement your place economically. At the moment, you're more than keeping up in tech with everyone else despite running 50% on the slider. A lot of that is your skillful use of lightbulbing and trading, but a lot of that is the size and better development of your lands compared to the AI. As you begin to bring Mehmed's lands online, you'll be even better off. The midgame wonders aren't too important, so being the first to most techs isn't a big to do. Lib is nice...but whatever. It's not a necessary component for victory.

Furthermore, your power graph is incredibly telling. You are equal in power to the top AI. WOW! This tells me that you can crush just about any AI. And I don't think the power graph takes into account UU's, either. As an example, look at Aelf's 1050AD - 1290AD EMC 3 section, or 1290 AD - 1400 AD. He was contemplating an offense vs Brennus, with a power graph height half to 2/3 that of Brennus. I'd say go ahead and crush JC. You'll have the land which gave the best teching AI it's lead, plus both your and Mehmed's lands. While it's true that you don't have any economically beneficial traits, JC only really has organized. It's nice...but most of those lands will be making enough commerce to get them past the maintenance costs quickly, if not as soon as they leave resistance.

Remember that finishing off an AI is significantly better for you in terms of happiness. If the AI is still around, you have lots of "We want to rejoin our homeland" saddness going around, which is a huge pain.

Very nice work against Mehmed. Overall I'd recommend finishing your Samurai's window against JC, suing for peace if you can't finish him before people start picking up muskets, then teching to grens and rifles to polish him off.