ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[DarkFyre99]

Even with the good luck with the good huts, mind you, I might have gotten bogged down if not for Brennus so conveniently building the Temple of Artemis, and then all those Great Merchants. I've never bothered with that wonder before, but now I'm having second thoughts. Same thing for trying to generate GMs. I usually skip the GM wonders (ToA and GL, though I sometimes build the Colossus), but now I'm wondering if it doesn't make sense to try to cluster 2 or 3 of them in one city and power your way through things with all those GMs. Like I said--a GM economy. I wonder whether it would be feasible to do that on purpose from the get-go. I think if you were an industrious leader and/or had marble available early on, it might be feasible. If nothing else, this game showcased the benefit of letting the AI build a wonder while you build units to take it for yourself.

Congrats on your win.

Recently, I've been trying the inverse of the specialist economy, where I keep my science slider at 100%, and use merchant specialists to generate the gold I need to keep my government afloat, generating an obscene amount of Great Merchants, especially since I build the National Epic in my intended Wall Street city.

I usually don't send them on trade missions until late in the game, though. I preferr to settle them my intended Wall Street city, which helps with the gold per turn and adds more food to the city, allowing more merchants to be supported there. I can see having cash on hand can be nice as well.

 

[Sisiutil]

Edit: "If nothing else, this game showcased the benefit of letting the AI build a wonder while you build units to take it for yourself. ". Are you overcoming your wonder addiction?

I think I am. Look at the early ALCs where I just couldn't imagine bypassing Stonehenge and the Oracle. Compare that to more recent games where I often forgo wonders until well into the ADs.

Hans L. said it way back in the Hatty game thread: "I war in order to build". If you forgo the early wonders and focus on units, you'll often find yourself in a position to build whatever the heck you want by mid-game, and may have captured several of the early wonders to get their benefits.

And will you stop using Killroyan's avatar? It's confusing!

 

[Tyrant Roger]

Have you considered using the new AI Mod in the next ALC?? It is available to all and will make the Monarch level more of a challenge.

Will you stay on epic speed or move back to normal? That would also make Monarch more challenging.

 

[LucyDuke]

I've only followed two, but I really like these games, Sisiutil. Thank you.

My favorite bit about this one was Monty. You kicked the ass of everyone on the planet... except the one guy that always makes trouble! If I'd've been doing this one, I'd've had to go on and at least knock him around a little.

 

[Sisiutil]

Have you considered using the new AI Mod in the next ALC?? It is available to all and will make the Monarch level more of a challenge.

Will you stay on epic speed or move back to normal? That would also make Monarch more challenging.

I'm reluctant to employ any mods in these games, preferring to stick to the widely-avialable, widely-implemented commercial releases. As I understand it, the better AI will be included in the next expansion pack, so when I start playing games with that, the new AI will be on display.

I also prefer to stick to epic speed. It's what I play offline, so it's what I'm used to, and I gather epic and marathon are the most popular of the game speeds, so they're more relevant to everyone participating. In addition, the longer game speeds allow for more time to put the unique unit into the field, and since the main purpose of the ALCs is to highlight each leader's unique characteristics, of which that is one, it serves that purpose well.

As I mentioned before, this game was very unusual because of the fortuitous goody huts and the Temple of Artemis being built so early on in such a nearby and strategically advantageous location. Plus I was playing as one of the Khans and going for all-out war for much of the game, at which a human player has a much stronger hand than the AI. So it's hard to go by my pwnage in this game and say it's time to move up a level.

Many people are in fact asking me NOT to move up, fearful that doing so will make the games less relevant to them since they play on the lower levels. It may also preclude some of the more unusual tactics and gambits that I attempt. Take this game's very unusual "GM Economy". Could I have pulled that off on Emperor? I don't know, I don't play that level--others who've mastered it like aelf may want to chime in on that. I myself kind of doubt it.

However, I am not blind to the trend in the last few ALCs, and a level jump is likely in the cards in the near future. My off-line monarch games, where I don't have the benefit of the group mind, are starting to meet with as much success, and I have learned to take that as a sign that I'm ready to move up. So let's table this discussion until after the Mehmed game, which I expect to follow a more standard pattern.

 

[pigswill]

Maybe getting more comfortable at monarch will mean that you could pursue more experimental gambits because if they didn't work out you'd still be able to 'save the trash game' (TM) by playing conventionally with increased skill.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

bum bum bum another one bites the dust

Nice game once again

 

[Yakk]

I do strongly recommend trying BetterAI on your offline games.

Seeing AI civilizations make plans to win is neat, and having AIs that decide "I need to expand. That means building up a massive army, finding a nearby weak person, and munching down." is also neat.

 

[Bhruic]

Very nice game Sisiutil!

I would recommend against using the "BetterAI", however. I tried it in a friendly co-op game with a friend - the AI were useless. We were both able to declare war on the AI with impunity - while they would beef up the defenses of the city you were planning to attack, they were completely unable to mount a counter-attack. At one point, I had all my cities defended with left over Warriors, just to see if they'd make a play for one, but they never did. Absolutely passive. They never even sent Pillagers into my terrain. That's certainly the last thing you'd want in a game series like this.

Note, I'm not suggesting that my experience was typical, but the fact it could happen makes me think that "BetterAI" isn't quite ready for the big leagues.

Bh

 

[Sisiutil]

I do strongly recommend trying BetterAI on your offline games.

Seeing AI civilizations make plans to win is neat, and having AIs that decide "I need to expand. That means building up a massive army, finding a nearby weak person, and munching down." is also neat.

I tried a Better AI game a couple of weeks back. I was kind of nervous about it, so I played as the leader whom I consider the strongest in the game, Augustus Caesar. Well, the fractal map script plunked me down on a Pangaea--always bad news for the AI if you're Rome--and my Praetorians kicked Better AI's sorry butt all the way to a domination win, so next time I'll have to try someone with less built-in pwnage (i.e. somebody not named "Caesar").

 

[Sisiutil]

Slightly off topic: I've been working on a strategy article on the leader traits for about a month now and finally decided it was ready for posting. Link is in my sig. I look forward to hearing what you folks think of it, since I tried to put a lot of your thoughts into it.

 

[aelf]

At least don't move up to Emperor for the next game, so that you can do a Gunpowder beeline without distractions.

 

[martin031]

Hey, just wanted to say these threads are great, sometimes they are more fun to read through than actually play a game.

Anyway, since I have been struggling to adapt to monarch, I decided to try to play one of the games you had already finished, so I could go and read your recaps and compare it to myself in the game, as well as see all the suggestions. The first one i tried (actually, in the process) was Mansa. Needless to say, I wiped Kahn off the map about 500 years before you did. And how? I popped Iron Working from a goody hut right after I finished with BW, and had a settler ready to go. Otherwise I think I would have been up a creek.....

Anyway, thanks for posting these, they are agreat read

 

[Syndrome Zed]

Congratulations, once again. Looking forward to the next one (no pressure though ).


And since you mentioned one of my favorite shows (Buffy), my favorite line has and always will be the final line from Spike's rant towards Buffy and Angel:

"I may be love's b**ch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it!"

Instant classic

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Why move to Emperor so quickly? Some of your noob readers haven't even gotten past Noble yet. I thought I saw some one say that Mehmed is next. I'm looking forward to it, since I've never played as Memmy and don't know how to leverage his traits or how to beeline to Gunpowder without killing my economy.

 

[Sisiutil]

Why move to Emperor so quickly? Some of your noob readers haven't even gotten past Noble yet. I thought I saw some one say that Mehmed is next. I'm looking forward to it, since I've never played as Memmy and don't know how to leverage his traits or how to beeline to Gunpowder without killing my economy.

Good point, I keep forgetting that these threads keep picking up new readers, and several of them are working their way from the lower levels to the higher ones.

 

[JackRules]

While reading the last 3 ALC's, I won my last 5 games on Noble...all different victory types. Unfortunately, I tried to move up to prince, but when Barbarian axemen started showing up against my warriors, I knew I was in BIG trouble. Back to reading I guess.

 

[Yakk]

While reading the last 3 ALC's, I won my last 5 games on Noble...all different victory types. Unfortunately, I tried to move up to prince, but when Barbarian axemen started showing up against my warriors, I knew I was in BIG trouble. Back to reading I guess.

Dealing with barb axemen is easy: Get bronze working early. If there is copper nearby and you can hook it up really quickly, go build a city on/next to it.

Slavery is most powerful civic in Civ4, and just got it. Possibly wait a few turns for a unit to be produced, then revolt into slavery. Chopping is also ridiculously powerful: 2 workers can chop a 3rd worker in 10 turns (including movement) on marathon. Note that 2 workers working 2 forests seperately take 20 worker turns: 2 workers working 2 forests one after another take 22 worker turns. (the extra turn is because of the costs of moving into a forest: you pay it more if they work together)

Tech wise, if you can't produce axeman ASAP, you can produce archers. Lots of archers. Lots and lots of archers. Place some in your city and some in forested hills around your empire.

Building a barracks can be useful (meaning you get CD1 and G1 archers).

Fortified Archer in 20% hill city: 3 + 20% + 25% + 50% + 50% = 7.35 strength.
Fortified Archer in 20% city: 3 + 20% + 25% + 50% = 5.85 strength.
Fortified Archer in 0% city: 3 + 25% + 50% = 5.25 strength.
Fortified Archer on Forested Hill: 3 + 25% + 50% + 50% = 6.75 strength

Promotions make this more gross:
CD1: +0.6
CD1&2: +1.35
CD1-3: +2.25

G1: +0.6
G2: +1.5

It does mean you have to concentrate on military techs before your social techs, but whatcha gonna do.

 

[manu-fan]

Great game.

One thing I've been meaning to ask though.

When you knew you were going for domination, had about 57% of the required 64%, had the techs you really needed, why didn't you swtich nearly all your cities to Wealth generation, switch your tech slider way down, and your culture slider way up?

Wouldn't you have finished several turns sooner and got an even higher score?

Cheers.

 

[Bhruic]

A viable alternative is to go for Animal Husbandry early, get horses up, and build Chariots. With their attack bonus vs Axemen, they can relatively easily take on any of the early barb units. The only danger comes from attacking Archers on hills or forests - but barb units will generally attack your units, so you can avoid that. Otherwise, Chariots will rule the day. And with their 2 movement, they can better shift around to counter incoming invaders.

Bh