ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[cabert]

As I recall, I was gonna play as Mehmed next (after M for Mongolia is O for Ottoman, since there's no one with N).

Gunpowder bee-line, anyone?

2 things :
- finish this game please
- I've tried a gunpowder beeline on emperor, normal speed. Got it in 780 AD, but the conditions weren't optimal (only 2 trading partners, one of them teching a lot faster than me :MM, and the other teching a lot slower than me : one of the american guys). I've followed a beeline I wrote down here. Intersting discussions in this thread too...

Frankly, though, if they want to emulate the Ottoman empire accurately, the UU should be a corrupt civil servant who requires constant bribes (baksheesh) to get anything done...

That would be really overpowered
The hammam is quite powerful as UB. First game were I build aqueducts all over the place .

By the way, did you consider adding the "GMs boost your domination rush" to your intermediate gambits?

 

[willpax]

Let me just throw in a suggestion that Sisutil not go up in difficulty for this series--yes, these wins are convincing, but the understanding of this struggling-on-monarch player is that higher levels of difficulty require very optimized play, which may (depending on the leader and situation) mitigate against the stated goals of exploring synergies among trait, UU, and UB. I think allowing the room to try something different makes this more interesting than a "how do I do well on the highest difficulty possible?" style goal.

I've concluded that my warmongering problems may, in fact, be a production problem. Those are some seriously huge stacks (in my experience), which suggests I don't build nearly enough units.

 

[oyzar]

another possible beeline(def wont work on emproer or above) is get religion build stonhenge run a priest start on the oracle, when the prophet comes pop theology then sling paper of oracle. This was outlined here. This seems very risky though since it is a high probabilty of the AI building the oracle before you(getting a relgion is less of a problem after the newest patch). Ofc you can also just do a standard liberalism sling tweak where you get gunpowder first then liberalism afterwards. Picking nationalism will let you draft hordes of janisarries which is quite fitting. If you manage to get 3 GS you can lightbulb paper, philosophy and education or if you skip finshing you can bulb liberalism instead of paper.

 

[Scaphism]

I haven't posted here in a while but I'm still reading and enjoying these threads.

A quick question/suggestion: Can you use a Great Merchant on one of your vassal's cities? Your economy is not in any trouble and you are probably going to switch to culture after you finish researching your current tech. I don't think it would be worthwhile to wait until after your GM has completed his trade mission to declare war.

Declare as soon as you are healed up and have stacks near the borders, send the GM wherever, and save yourself a few turns.

 

[KMadCandy]

Personally I'd like to see you play with the Better AI Mod in your next game, better get used to it now because in the Expansion Better AI is a permenant feature, besides the AI is much more competent at warring and Research, almost like a human player, except they totally suck at Naval Warfare and do a Noob move every once in a while, but still alot better then what we currently play wihtout the Mod.

that's been brought up before and my first priority is that S plays how he wants to since i'd hate to see him get bored and quit doing the series. but my selfish preference is for the ALCs to not make that switch yet, since then the games wouldn't compare as directly to my own. i can't use the Better AI mod with the HoF Mod i do generally use. i'll just adjust to the expansion when i play the expansion.

sheesh. i don't read the forums for a few days and come back to a so-close-to-won ALC (which i expected) and such an elaborate april fool's joke (which i hadn't!)

 

[PublicEnemy]

There's not much left in this game, apart from finishing off the inevitable. Well played as usual.

I reckon you need to move to Emperor, you're too good for Monarch now.

 

[Sam_Yeager]

I reckon you need to move to Emperor, you're too good for Monarch now.

I'm definitely with KMad on sticking with Monarch for the time being. I'm still trying to get the hang of Prince, never mind Monarch. Emperor is just too far away for me to contemplate.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'll be sticking to Monarch for now, mainly for the didactic purposes.

Beyond that, keep in mind that in many ways this game was atypical. First of all came those amazing goody hut pops for the exact techs the Mongols needed, then there was Brennus building the ToA for us so close by, which fueled the GM economy. Not to mention the fact that his ToA city/capital had horses AND made a great GP farm.

I wouldn't expect to be duplicating that sort of luck any time soon.

 

[KMadCandy]

I'm definitely with KMad on sticking with Monarch for the time being.

but KMad was talking about the better AI mod! KMad gave no opinion on royalty *giggle* disclaimer: this poster is currently taking heavy-duty cough medicine and should not be held responsible for actions such as referring to herself in the third person. yes it is doctor prescribed and no she will not share with you.

...Not to mention the fact that his ToA city/capital had horses...

it was all about the piggies last time, and much early discussion centered on ponies this time, and most of us even missed spotting those ponies ... what critter will it be next game?

 

[Sisiutil]

it was all about the piggies last time, and much early discussion centered on ponies this time, and most of us even missed spotting those ponies ... what critter will it be next game?

My vote is for whales. I say we go for broke, take a page from way outta left field, and build a whale-based economy. Who's with me?


[insert sound of crickets chirping]


Hello?

 

[KMadCandy]

hmmz, are you allowed to build any wonders before optics in this type of economy? what happens at combustion, the whole thing goes boom?

 

[ChienFou]

I've learnt a lot from these ALC's, I reckon just reading them and trying some of the ideas out has moved me up half a level already. I win noble now; I'm getting close on prince.. The audience that's reading this is IMHO largely Noble/Prince players lurking mostly and Monarch/Emperor players posting out of proportion to readership. Were you to go to Emperor, I think you'd lose a lot of fans of this series, and i guess the micro-management aspects would overpower the strategy aspects. If one set an objective to run 30 games to show you how to advance a whole level; that'd be a pretty good mission in its own right, and to me that's what makes this series fascinating. Maybe another series; SisiUtil could take a well earned sabbatical if he chose moving up another level would be a good follow up, but the historical content of these threads is just as fascinating as the excitement of watching them unfold real-time.

My 2p worth, and thanks for the efforts from everyone. I hope I speak for many.

 

[Sisiutil]

hmmz, are you allowed to build any wonders before optics in this type of economy? what happens at combustion, the whole thing goes boom?

Your awesome whale-powered navy should have conquered the world by then, the whale oil craze having fueled your economy for centuries.

 

[Sisiutil]

Round 10: 1574 AD to 1628 AD

As I started the round, several of my units had to either heal or shuffle their way out of English territory or both.

(Thanks again, Mansa, for pillaging all those roads! You're a valuable friend and ally of the Mongolian Empire, yessireebob. Thank me? Oh, no no no no! Thank you, Mansa! Your contribution to the war was invaluable. Why, without you, all those captured cities might have road networks and viable economies! And you know how I love a challenge...)

Anywho, I sent my GM into German territory. I wasn't fussy, I just settled for a trade mission to the first German city he reached.



So that guaranteed the economy would stay afloat until the end of the game. How many GMs and trade missions is that? Was anyone counting?

As I got my stack o' doom ready to invade Germany, I finished research:



I started on Railroad right after that. I figured it might come in handy if the war was prolonged.

Speaking of war, it was time to get this show on the road:



Despite the shared religion, Bizzy had dropped to "cautious". Maybe watching all his former friends becoming my vassals was ticking him off? Like I cared.

The war started off with a little naval action. Caravels versus Frigates--not a fair fight:



That's okay; I hate fair fights. As my SoD probably indicates:



I am reminded of one of several wonderful exchanges from one of my favourite shows of all time, Buffy the Vampire Slayer:

"...isn't that overkill?"
"No, I think it's just enough kill."

Then again, the handful of turns I waited before attacking at least gave Bismarck an opportunity to finishing Rifling. So at least he was going to make things sporting. Somewhat.



Yeah, okay, not so much. He still didn't have Chemistry for Grenadiers and Frigates or, of course, Steel for Cannons. Funny how the AI avoids that track in favour of Replaceable Parts and Rifling.

Ooo, look, I captured a wonder!



The Taj Mahal--big whoop. Oh well, I guess it'll help the final score.

So with one German city down and my borders expanding--I switched several cities to building culture--I kept checking to see how close I was getting to a domination win:



VERY close. But it made sense to just keep going; it would have been aggravating to make peace and discover I was still a few tiles short of the win.

So that meant Hamburg just had to go:





By now, 10 turns had gone by. Would Bismarck follow the lead of his buddies and knuckle under to the Mongolian juggernaut?



No dice, huh? Okay, Spike. We do this the hard way. I sent my stack towards Munich.

Meanwhile, I continued to build culture and pop my borders:



I checked the victory conditions:



Almost there! When Railroad was finished, I changed the sliders from research to culture. The key, however, was Essen. Once it came out of revolt, its borders popped immediately to the 2nd ring, and that was enough:



Yay! I think that's the earliest ALC win ever. The post-mortem follows.

 

[Sisiutil]

Post Mortem

Time to listen to the tale the numbers tell. Starting with the Score chart, which could be considered obscene in some states:



Likewise for the power graph for the whole game:



And power for the last 50 turns:



Heh. I'll bet you anything that if Monty'd had Galleons, he still would have tried to attack me!

Demographics:



Top 5 Cities/Wonders:



Statistics:



And, last but not least, the score:



Yep, highest-scoring ALC evar! I'm just a wee bit disappointed that I didn't break 100,000, but I guess I shouldn't quibble. I'm sure I'll get there before the ALCs are done.

This was a very unusual game. It was fun for me and I hope it was entertaining for you, but as soon as I popped those huts for techs--especially AH and HBR--I got the feeling we were in for a romp rather than a challenge. As aelf wisely observed at that point, I don't know how informative this game was, because it was so atypical in several respects.

Even with the good luck with the good huts, mind you, I might have gotten bogged down if not for Brennus so conveniently building the Temple of Artemis, and then all those Great Merchants. I've never bothered with that wonder before, but now I'm having second thoughts. Same thing for trying to generate GMs. I usually skip the GM wonders (ToA and GL, though I sometimes build the Colossus), but now I'm wondering if it doesn't make sense to try to cluster 2 or 3 of them in one city and power your way through things with all those GMs. Like I said--a GM economy. I wonder whether it would be feasible to do that on purpose from the get-go. I think if you were an industrious leader and/or had marble available early on, it might be feasible. If nothing else, this game showcased the benefit of letting the AI build a wonder while you build units to take it for yourself.

As for the UU/UB combination--Keshiks don't dominate the way Praetorians or Redcoats do, but then again, they're not the best city raiders, so you wouldn't expect that. I found them serving in vital support roles, and also able to sack some distant, poorly-defended cities all on their own, thanks to their quick movement. The extra promotions from the cheap barracks and UB also helped there.

Anyway, that's my take on things. I look forward to any additional insight you folks can offer. Mehmed is next; I'll start the pre-game show thread in a day or two.

 

[cabert]

This was a very unusual game. It was fun for me and I hope it was entertaining for you, but as soon as I popped those huts for techs--especially AH and HBR--I got the feeling we were in for a romp rather than a challenge. As aelf wisely observed at that point, I don't know how informative this game was, because it was so atypical in several respects.

It was a lot of fun for me : I like using YOUR luck and start a shadow game when you already have done the difficult part .
I never have so much luck in my own games

Even with the good luck with the good huts, mind you, I might have gotten bogged down if not for Brennus so conveniently building the Temple of Artemis, and then all those Great Merchants. I've never bothered with that wonder before, but now I'm having second thoughts. Same thing for trying to generate GMs. I usually skip the GM wonders (ToA and GL, though I sometimes build the Colossus), but now I'm wondering if it doesn't make sense to try to cluster 2 or 3 of them in one city and power your way through things with all those GMs. Like I said--a GM economy. I wonder whether it would be feasible to do that on purpose from the get-go. I think if you were an industrious leader and/or had marble available early on, it might be feasible. If nothing else, this game showcased the benefit of letting the AI build a wonder while you build units to take it for yourself.

you don't really need the wonders. A GM funded empire is really doable.
I think GMs are a lot better than GSs after liberalism.
If you can run universal suffrage it gets even better.
We deliberately run for GMs in trash team's SGotM3, and we never faced a money problem . And I can tell you we didn't count pennies : $rushing and upgrading all over the place!!!

 

[Killroyan]

Darn, what a score. 91000. I bow my head. Ok, this was epic speed if I am not mistaken which makes it far more easier but still. As the english would say "jolly good show chap". Nice game and very entertaining. And the GM economy is a new one. Lets see if you can get it rolling with mehmed. Arf, never mind I thought he was philosophical my bad. Keep up the good work.

 

[pigswill]

Well played. Comfortable win. Lucky with early hut pops but credit for making use of the luck.
Re GM economy. Early in the game you're probably better off with GS because they'll bulb a tech instantly that would take you many turns to research even if you had money for 100% research. Maybe mid-game when your economy is getting established GM trade missions become more useful because cash is more flexible than beakers. Cash can subsidise 100% research in techs of choice (less reliance on tech trading and WFYABTA) or upgrades or bribery.

Edit: "If nothing else, this game showcased the benefit of letting the AI build a wonder while you build units to take it for yourself. ". Are you overcoming your wonder addiction?

 

[curtadams]

If you're going to pop a GP for tech, a GM trade mission is almost always a much better deal. Here they were twice the benefit of a GS and I've gotten bonuses over 4000 in the Industrial era. The time benefit of the GS matters only when you're in a tight race - and of course the trade mission will always put you in better pole position for the next race. In spite of knowing this I've never tried a GM economy and after seeing your results here that will be my next experiment.

 

[KMadCandy]

Edit: "If nothing else, this game showcased the benefit of letting the AI build a wonder while you build units to take it for yourself. ". Are you overcoming your wonder addiction?

i don't think so. i remember him building the parthenon late in this one and then going for chemistry not too long afterwards. neither one is a bad thing of course, but when you consider the patient...

i often tend towards wonder addiction myself so i can say that! and now i'm off to giggle some more over monty's fate, isolated behind his great wall and chichen itza