ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[Galileo44]

This is looking like a capital move game. Now on Emperor, when you can only work 4 or 5 tiles, your current location is good for now, but with the higher caps on Monarch, you capital is not looking too productive right now. I say, keep moving inland! Take a chance!

 

[jerVL/kg]

As I see it, 1 S of the current location not only means the fish will never be worked (something that jerVL/kg doesn't list as a con)

IMHO it's not a con because there are other options available. I routinely pass up awkwardly placed fish tiles -- especially ones that require me to settle on a resource -- if there's plenty of other food available. Not to mention the woeful lack of production from settling on the furs...that city would have a maximum of NINE hammers, four of which come from grassland forest, which are almost always better chopped. It's acceptable for a mid-game GP farm, but for the capital? Not so much.

...it also means that the only city that can work the cows will be poorly placed.

Which I did list as a con. Actually, I can see now that a city 2N of the lake would make a decent (if unspectacular) production city...

And there are 3 unrevealed tiles in its BFC (something else that jerVL/kg doesn't mention as a con).

I didn't?? Hmm, I thought I did, guess I forgot. In any case, one of those mystery tiles is definitely coast, and two mystery tiles is a much better gambit than six (as we've since discovered...)

One tile N of the original start would have somewhat better commerce and production that the original site, but at the cost of making the fish unworkable. The problem is that if the corn is used by a city to the NW (whether its the blue circle site or something near there) that would leave only the cows and the lake tile as positive food tiles.

My whole point was that Blue Circle was a very shaky idea, because of that precious corn tile. Even the original start would've been seriously weakened by giving away the corn.

 

[oyzar]

I said the second city would make for an excelent second city Working farms/mines to boost your production while any cities you settle further upriver would be commerce cities. As it is i would just settle where it is as it can still get decent food working the corn some grasland farms and hills. On size seven(what you get from the reasources in the imeadiate area it can work the corn elephants 2 grassland farms and 3 plains hills for example for awesome production. The starting loc would be an excelent science city with both fish cows and furs. Further upriver there looks like there is space for loads of cottages.

 

[jerVL/kg]

So, where does the capital go? Without any additional food--and with a lot of hills that will require food to be worked--the blue circle site is looking less attractive.

Toldja so!

To me, the spot 1N of the corn looks the most attractive. It has fresh water from the lake, can work both the cows and the corn, and will make the fur available on the capital's 3rd border pop--which doesn't take too terribly long--and a fishing village on the starting location can work the fish and riverside fur later on, even with considerable overlap from the capital.

That plan smacks of desperation more than anything else. You're essentially giving up those precious fur tiles to some future fishing village which will never be able to exploit them to their full potential (only one camp, no Bureaucracy, probably no Academy, etc.) Not to mention, your city would be one tile off the coast...'nuff said.

Frankly, if this were my game, I'd reload the autosave and settle between the lake & the furs (or settle in place, if you MUST have those fish...) Or totally regenerate the map, if you feel that's cheating...but those choices would violate the spirit of the ALC, wouldn't it??

So I vote with Galileo44 -- keep moving that settler!! Someday, someway, he'll find a home. And if it doesn't work out...so what? It's just a game!

 

[carl corey]

Guys, stop calling a capital with 5 resources (or 4 if settled 1N) in the fat cross a bad site just because it doesn't have a crazy production. There's always the possibility of a resource to appear in the fat cross, or for forests to grow over tiles. With commerce coming from furs and with (at least) two happiness resources (fur and ivory) the capital could work enough forests to get a decent production anyway. Sure, you won't chop, but hey not every city should be about chopping.

 

[NaZdReG]

this is a brutal initial starting area man. I'd consider the 2 turns lost.. perhaps the game is toast?? but hey what can you do except either settle in place and deal with it or move and not settle till the 4th turn... way too late IMO. being this far behind in # of turns could potentially ruin the whole game

or worst case, add me in on the vote to regenerate the map and start over. I honestly think you got a screwed start for mongolia, (forests covered all potential spots that could have had horses, copper, iron.) and I don't think anybody would hold it against you. we're all in it to see a good game well played.

so either settle and get started or regenerate, make your own settling decision, and post from there???

NaZ

 

[kniteowl]

lol by the end of your 2nd turn, maybe you should of added poll and let us vote with Capital Starting location would be best lol... too late now.

Personally I'd reload the auto-save and settle 1S of the Lake.

That or regenerate the map, you're 3-4 turns behind on Monarch... a very huge disadvantage.

 

[Jet]

2 SE of the settler goes stagnant at size 17 with
* 11 cottages
* 2 fur
* corn
* cows
* windmill
* lake
It has 13 hammers at size 17. It's good enough for Oxford, and right away gets 9 commerce from the 2 furs.
After Biology it can even add a big non-lighthouse coast tile.

 

[Validator]

I have to say that I'm opposed to restarting or regenerating. Restarting would basically be saying that we can try any crazy strategy we want and then if it doesn't work just reload. To me that devalues any strategic decision that gets made. As to regenerating, let me point out that the last 2 ALC games have benefited from very favorable starting positions. If the purpose of the ALCs is to have easy wins then go ahead and regenerate, otherwise play this one out and show that a Monarch win is possible even with a poor starting position.

I don't know why people are so convinced that 2 or 3 turns of moving the settler makes the situation hopeless. Good play can easily make that up. And remember that this is epic, so it's even less of a problem.

 

[jerVL/kg]

Guys, stop calling a capital with 5 resources (or 4 if settled 1N) in the fat cross a bad site just because it doesn't have a crazy production. There's always the possibility of a resource to appear in the fat cross, or for forests to grow over tiles.

It's not a bad site. It's just not a good site for your first city. And settling on the fur to claim the fish really queers the deal. Sure, you gain the resource, but as far as tile yield is concerned, it might as well be in the 3rd ring.

 

[KMadCandy]

Guys, stop calling a capital with 5 resources (or 4 if settled 1N) in the fat cross a bad site just because it doesn't have a crazy production. There's always the possibility of a resource to appear in the fat cross, or for forests to grow over tiles.

i'm not asking to be argumentative, i'm asking to learn. assuming we'd settled in place, that original starting spot had exactly 2 land tiles we couldn't see, 4 resources on land, 4 forests, the rest water. granted, oil can appear in the fat cross in the water much later on. but my understanding is that metals and horses won't appear on tiles that start as forests on turn 0. so the only possibilities of potential strategic (non-oil) resources we had at that spot were the 2 land tiles we couldn't yet see. is that not true?

oh you did mention going 1N and not just the settling in place case. but i am very curious to found out if i've been mistaken all along (would not be the first time!). thanks.

 

[Harbourboy]

I am also opposed to restarting or reloading. Surely, the combined superiority of the vast intellects on these Boards who have managed to write 4 pages of genius insight on the first 3 turns alone, can provide the brainpower to ensure victory no matter what the starting position is.

 

[Rancid Sushi]

Sheesh. That gamble certainly didn't pay off. I hope the loss of 2 turns on monarch won't be as terrible as I think it is. I never trust those stupid blue circles. What does the computer know? Group intelligence > artifical intelligence.

 

[curtadams]

I don't see the current location as bad at all. As I pointed out, it has three resources - corn, elephants, and a river, and all three are very good resources. My justification for settling in the original spot is that locations as good as this aren't always available. I really don't think further search makes sense for exactly that reason - you could wander for many turns before finding anything better.

The spot 1E of where the settler is has 7 grassland and a corn, which, when irrigated, is *plenty* of food to work the three hills and an elephant. It's a poor commerce location but great production location and IMO the first city should be a production city. In any case the initial capital doesn't *have* to be a commerce city. The exact spot the settler is in is a bit touchier because it has less grass and more hill but will still be an excellent location until the population gets over 15 or so. The spot 1E also gets the corn right away, which is something of a boost.

I can already see two good nearby cities. One is back at the starting point, which gets 3 resources ( since it must settle on a fur) plus some river. The other is the next upriver site. Of course better options may lie to the west - but it looks decent already.

So, like Validator, I say move 1E and settle.

 

[TRJS]

I would like to add another vote to not re-starting. Would seem like giving up. Very un-Australian (some of you might get that).

Now you have two scouts you can move them a first and the follow with the settler.

I see this game as a real chance to show how one can win despite poor startin g options.

I for one will learn somehting.

 

[BlueSoxSWJ]

this is a brutal initial starting area man. I'd consider the 2 turns lost.. perhaps the game is toast??

And we thought the Hannibal game was bad - the doom calls are already starting just two turns in this time!

 

[Rancid Sushi]

He's never restarted before. That would a 'first' that I don't think is appropriate. I believe that Sisiutil has a reputation to uphold with these ALCs. It's impossible to say for certain that the game is doomed. The start just looks rather difficult.

 

[kniteowl]

LOL it's only a game, Although games like these are to show other how to leverage your traits, UU, UB and Starting location.

but if your the kind of person who hates to quit after starting something, I'd Advise Settling where you currently are to minimize the number of tiles, to 2 tiles overlaped with a secondary city, whether it's 1S of the cows if you decide to work both the Furs, or on the forested furs (original starting location) if you decide to work the fish.

 

[NaZdReG]

oh I don't mean to be pessimistic at all. I usually settle on the 1st or 2nd turn at the latest.. 3rd or 4th seems way too late IMO but I could be mistaken. either way I'm sure sisuitil will be successful at this difficulty level but I'm sure he's in for quite a wild ride given the current map situation.

NaZ

 

[Harbourboy]

We will all learn more from the wild ride than the comfy cruise ship.