ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Nonobots
Warlord
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2007
- Messages
- 100
Two scouts will allow to lessen the time spent choosing a good capital-spot, I guess we are looking for a combination of:
- food
- production (including chopping material)
- choke point
- fresh water
- ressource
- a nice neighbour (read easy target)
Most of wich I find rather lacking in the current map.
How much time can you "lose" running around like that without endangering too much your game? And how does the speed and difficulty affect this?
I know some people are used to running around with the settler and it can be an integral part of a strategy (queschua rush and choke point come to mind) but personnaly I never spent more than one turn or two before settling my capital.
I'm also curious as to how those lost turns affect the initial strategy. Of course it depends on where and why you settle. Wouldn't it make Alphabet more pressing for trading tech and making up for the lost beakers?
- food
- production (including chopping material)
- choke point
- fresh water
- ressource
- a nice neighbour (read easy target)
Most of wich I find rather lacking in the current map.
How much time can you "lose" running around like that without endangering too much your game? And how does the speed and difficulty affect this?
I know some people are used to running around with the settler and it can be an integral part of a strategy (queschua rush and choke point come to mind) but personnaly I never spent more than one turn or two before settling my capital.
I'm also curious as to how those lost turns affect the initial strategy. Of course it depends on where and why you settle. Wouldn't it make Alphabet more pressing for trading tech and making up for the lost beakers?
Part of my suggestion to move inland was the fact that we knew the corn was there this guaranteed a site with reasonable food. As it happens there is no great food/production/money shangrila. We can't always get what we want, but we may just get what we need. Settle in place and go find the steeds.
IMO it's pretty much even as to whether to settle in the current location or 1E. The current location definitely has better long term production potential, however it's going to have to work at least 5 grassland farms by my count to be able to work mines on all the hills. That means it would need to reach at least size 13. Settling to the east would give almost as much short term production potential. Since it wouldn't need so many farms it could work some cottages. It wouldn't be a commercial powerhouse, but it would make a decent hybrid city. The real bonus for settling 1E is that it means the furs could be hooked up in about 50 turns. If the current location is settled then Sisiutil would either need to wait for a city to be founded to the S or wait around 200 turns for the 3rd border expansion to get the
benefit from the fur. I think that the general plan moving forward would be to settle the next couple of cities (possibly even the next few cities) N and/or W of the capital, so it might be a while before that southern city is founded to claim the fur.If the overall plan for the game was to go for a space race win then I would think the current location would be best as it would make an excellent IW candidate especially once state property watermills become available. But the plan is to try for domination, so I think the short term benefits are a more important consideration. Still I wouldn't have a problem with settling either the current location or 1E.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 3: 3940 BC to 3280 BC
Time to you-know-what or get off the pot, as they say.
Like Validator says above, this will make a good hybrid city, allowing for a mix of food, production, and commerce. Will it make the best city possible under Bureaucracy? No, but I expect to be filling Mongolia's coffers with war booty. Optimizing the commercial potential of a site was in the last game. And it leaves just enough room for a surf-n-turf-n-fur city on the original starting site.
I started building a Worker since I had two Scouts already, and got the Scouts doing what they do best... er, scouting. One thing I love about Scouts is reaching as many goody huts as possible. I love those things. They're like Civ's version of a Cracker Jack box, and Scouts mean the results are never unpleasant. Scouts, especially two of them, also mean I'm likely to beat the AI to several of the huts.
Yeah, gold is always nice. It allows research to run at 100% longer in the early game, even after you found a couple of cities and your maintenance costs start going up. I found several more huts, in fact; one of my Scouts earned experience from one (Woodsman II), and I got more gold from another. I like gold. Gold is nice.
Techs, however, are even better.
WOO-HOO!!! One of Mongolia's key techs, just like that. I was pretty excited, until I zoomed out...
Darn. No horsies in sight. Oh, well, I hadn't explored much of the map yet. They're sure to turn up somewhere...
Someone else turned up before horses did:
Confirmation that we're not isolated. Brennus is likely to found a religion, which would be convenient--especially when I wrest his holy city from his cold, dead fingers. With luck, he'll have built a shrine there by the time he feels the kiss of Mongolian steel.
It looks like Brennus is located on the east coast, to my north:
He's likely going to beat me to those gems. Which is just one more reason to go after him.
Now, make sure you're sitting down before you watch this one:
Oh. My. GOD. Can you believe that? I've never had such good luck from huts before, so maybe the RNG gods decided that I'm overdue. I now had 2 of the 3 techs required for the UU, all acquired from huts. All hail the utility of Scouts!
I finished researching my first honestly-acquired tech a couple of turns later:
Disconcertingly, though I'd exposed a fair bit of the map, I still had not found horses. Maybe that was the balance for being so lucky with the huts. So I decided to research Archery next. Not only was it the 3rd UU-enabling tech; with no horses within easy reach, and Bronze Working several turns off, I wanted a decent unit to protect my nascent empire.
I then met another one of the neighbours:
Huh. Deja vu, but with our roles reversed. Mansa is to my northwest. He will be useful for tech trading, but could easily out-pace me in terms of research. He, too, must die--once he outlives his usefulness to Mongolia. (Hey, a little role-playing is part of the fun!)
I found another hut, and...
Okay, this is getting embarrassing. I'm leading Mansa in techs, I have no doubt, if the score is any indication. Of course that won't last. At any rate, this certainly makes up for delaying the founding of the capital a couple of turns. Take that, all you worry-warts!
in 3280, where the turn ends, I finished researching another tech:
I also found horses, but not in any immediately accessible location, as you'll see. So I'm thinking that Mining and Bronze Working make sense next, because I may need copper and Axemen before I can get horses hooked up.
Take a look at the map and you'll see what I mean.
So only 2 locations of horses revealed thus far. The one in the northwest is right on Mansa's borders and likely to be claimed by his capital on its 3rd border pop. The other location, to the southwest, is not ridiculously far away, but not convenient either. Fortunately, no other civ is near that location, and there's some food nearby. I'm thinking of leaving the Scout there for now to fog-bust and ensure that barbs don't take the site before I can get there. (The other Scout is north of Mali and will continue exploring in that direction.)
Placing the city 1W of the horses would claim one of the whale tiles as well as the pigs and horses, but 1NW trades several water tiles for 3 plains tiles, 2 of them forested, even though it does pick up an additional peak. And both the horses and pigs would be available without a border pop (not that that's a big deal for a creative leader). At any rate, those so inclined can have some fun dot-mapping now.
The big question is, do I go for broke and send a Settler to the horse city first, or do I proceed more cautiously and found at least one city in between us? It would be very nice if I finish Bronze Working by the time the Settler is ready and copper is somewhere in that area to my west. I think the smart thing would be to found the 2nd city there somewhere, with the western horse city being #3. Though I haven't worked out a dot map yet, I can informally see spots for 6 cities: the far west horse-pig city, another near the corn and silk, another claiming the wheat and cows, still another snagging the whale and deer, one on the original starting position, and one on the upper west coast to claim the gold. The last one is tricky because of a lack of food--either there will be seafood in the fogged tiles off the coast, or at least one of the nearby floodplains will have to be farmed. Of course, the AI may very well beat me to that spot.
So I was thinking of teching to Mining and Bronze Working while building Archers, Workers, and 2 Settlers. Then I would found my 2nd city in the midwest, keeping my fingers crossed that there's copper there. City #3 gets the horses, and then it's time to build for a Keshik rush, thanks to those incredible goody huts!
Time to you-know-what or get off the pot, as they say.
Like Validator says above, this will make a good hybrid city, allowing for a mix of food, production, and commerce. Will it make the best city possible under Bureaucracy? No, but I expect to be filling Mongolia's coffers with war booty. Optimizing the commercial potential of a site was in the last game. And it leaves just enough room for a surf-n-turf-n-fur city on the original starting site.
I started building a Worker since I had two Scouts already, and got the Scouts doing what they do best... er, scouting. One thing I love about Scouts is reaching as many goody huts as possible. I love those things. They're like Civ's version of a Cracker Jack box, and Scouts mean the results are never unpleasant. Scouts, especially two of them, also mean I'm likely to beat the AI to several of the huts.
Yeah, gold is always nice. It allows research to run at 100% longer in the early game, even after you found a couple of cities and your maintenance costs start going up. I found several more huts, in fact; one of my Scouts earned experience from one (Woodsman II), and I got more gold from another. I like gold. Gold is nice.
Techs, however, are even better.
WOO-HOO!!! One of Mongolia's key techs, just like that. I was pretty excited, until I zoomed out...
Darn. No horsies in sight. Oh, well, I hadn't explored much of the map yet. They're sure to turn up somewhere...
Someone else turned up before horses did:
Confirmation that we're not isolated. Brennus is likely to found a religion, which would be convenient--especially when I wrest his holy city from his cold, dead fingers. With luck, he'll have built a shrine there by the time he feels the kiss of Mongolian steel.
It looks like Brennus is located on the east coast, to my north:
He's likely going to beat me to those gems. Which is just one more reason to go after him.
Now, make sure you're sitting down before you watch this one:
Oh. My. GOD. Can you believe that? I've never had such good luck from huts before, so maybe the RNG gods decided that I'm overdue. I now had 2 of the 3 techs required for the UU, all acquired from huts. All hail the utility of Scouts!
I finished researching my first honestly-acquired tech a couple of turns later:
Disconcertingly, though I'd exposed a fair bit of the map, I still had not found horses. Maybe that was the balance for being so lucky with the huts. So I decided to research Archery next. Not only was it the 3rd UU-enabling tech; with no horses within easy reach, and Bronze Working several turns off, I wanted a decent unit to protect my nascent empire.
I then met another one of the neighbours:
Huh. Deja vu, but with our roles reversed. Mansa is to my northwest. He will be useful for tech trading, but could easily out-pace me in terms of research. He, too, must die--once he outlives his usefulness to Mongolia. (Hey, a little role-playing is part of the fun!)
I found another hut, and...
Okay, this is getting embarrassing. I'm leading Mansa in techs, I have no doubt, if the score is any indication. Of course that won't last. At any rate, this certainly makes up for delaying the founding of the capital a couple of turns. Take that, all you worry-warts!
in 3280, where the turn ends, I finished researching another tech:
I also found horses, but not in any immediately accessible location, as you'll see. So I'm thinking that Mining and Bronze Working make sense next, because I may need copper and Axemen before I can get horses hooked up.
Take a look at the map and you'll see what I mean.
So only 2 locations of horses revealed thus far. The one in the northwest is right on Mansa's borders and likely to be claimed by his capital on its 3rd border pop. The other location, to the southwest, is not ridiculously far away, but not convenient either. Fortunately, no other civ is near that location, and there's some food nearby. I'm thinking of leaving the Scout there for now to fog-bust and ensure that barbs don't take the site before I can get there. (The other Scout is north of Mali and will continue exploring in that direction.)
Placing the city 1W of the horses would claim one of the whale tiles as well as the pigs and horses, but 1NW trades several water tiles for 3 plains tiles, 2 of them forested, even though it does pick up an additional peak. And both the horses and pigs would be available without a border pop (not that that's a big deal for a creative leader). At any rate, those so inclined can have some fun dot-mapping now.
The big question is, do I go for broke and send a Settler to the horse city first, or do I proceed more cautiously and found at least one city in between us? It would be very nice if I finish Bronze Working by the time the Settler is ready and copper is somewhere in that area to my west. I think the smart thing would be to found the 2nd city there somewhere, with the western horse city being #3. Though I haven't worked out a dot map yet, I can informally see spots for 6 cities: the far west horse-pig city, another near the corn and silk, another claiming the wheat and cows, still another snagging the whale and deer, one on the original starting position, and one on the upper west coast to claim the gold. The last one is tricky because of a lack of food--either there will be seafood in the fogged tiles off the coast, or at least one of the nearby floodplains will have to be farmed. Of course, the AI may very well beat me to that spot.
So I was thinking of teching to Mining and Bronze Working while building Archers, Workers, and 2 Settlers. Then I would found my 2nd city in the midwest, keeping my fingers crossed that there's copper there. City #3 gets the horses, and then it's time to build for a Keshik rush, thanks to those incredible goody huts!
pindicator
Emperor
And who was calling for you to restart out there?
flamingzaroc121
Emperor
OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i NEVER, NEVER get that lucky with huts. ive heard of people popping BW, but 2/3 needed for your UU!!!! that is completly crazy
Harbourboy
Deity
That is some amazing scouting. Maybe Boy Scouts aren't as lame as Bart Simpson thinks they are.
But your bad luck with the horses is exactly what happens to me whenever I play as Mongolia. I don't think I've ever even built a keshik.
But your bad luck with the horses is exactly what happens to me whenever I play as Mongolia. I don't think I've ever even built a keshik.
Uncle Istvan
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2007
- Messages
- 61
First of all, mazel tov on the techs. I don't get those techs on any difficulty. More to the point, having been blessed by the RNG gods, I would found horse city ASAP. If you maximize the expediency with which you can make some Keshiks, we can really see some Mongol action, and the lead will likely propel you through the rest of the game. Just my two cents.
TRJS
Warlord
Just attempted my first dot map using paint.
God it sucked. I am not an artist. So I won't embaress myself and attempt to post it.
It basically showed:
City 2 1SW of corn.
City 3 1SE of Pig.
God it sucked. I am not an artist. So I won't embaress myself and attempt to post it.
It basically showed:
City 2 1SW of corn.
City 3 1SE of Pig.
Cabledawg
King
Notice that big mountain range in the center of the map. Now, on the right side, youve got Brennus and on the left, youve got Mansa. Both will start settling toward you. You need to settle towards them. 2nd city towards that marble, corn, wine, pig, gems....whatever...the further up the better... to seal off Brennus....3rd to either a mansa seal (you dont know that he will grab those horses) or the horse site. Either way, I wouldnt settle until copper is revealed.
With your Creative trait, youll seal them off quick enough.
With your Creative trait, youll seal them off quick enough.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
amazing huts!!!
that southwest horse location isn't ridiculously far away, but it's not convenient to connect to kara either. we all know how much you love micromanaging worker actions. you'll have to road 4 tiles from the river to horse city and keep the road safe from barbs.
i hope that i'm wrong about this next bit...looking at the screenshot closer, i got suspicious near the NW horses/wine by mansa. i loaded up the save, and YUCK! the river that goes from that silk down to the other silks in the south does NOT connect to the river that kara is on, they are different rivers. so would roading to that river even hook up horses in kara? i'm praying for copper west of kara between the two rivers, so that the city would do some of the fogbusting for you and we'd need less "roads just for the purpose of roads" that would require barb-squads.
you can connect the two cities via coast of course (the river from kara to the south counts, you wouldn't need a separate coastal city just for this purpose), but that would require a fishing/sailing detour, pricey beakerwise.
maybe we do want to go take those northern ponies before mansa can...
that southwest horse location isn't ridiculously far away, but it's not convenient to connect to kara either. we all know how much you love micromanaging worker actions. you'll have to road 4 tiles from the river to horse city and keep the road safe from barbs.
i hope that i'm wrong about this next bit...looking at the screenshot closer, i got suspicious near the NW horses/wine by mansa. i loaded up the save, and YUCK! the river that goes from that silk down to the other silks in the south does NOT connect to the river that kara is on, they are different rivers. so would roading to that river even hook up horses in kara? i'm praying for copper west of kara between the two rivers, so that the city would do some of the fogbusting for you and we'd need less "roads just for the purpose of roads" that would require barb-squads.
you can connect the two cities via coast of course (the river from kara to the south counts, you wouldn't need a separate coastal city just for this purpose), but that would require a fishing/sailing detour, pricey beakerwise.
maybe we do want to go take those northern ponies before mansa can...
Don't Settle Horse City 1st, Use your Creative Trait to your advantage... Notice those peaks in the center of the continent?
Their gonna help you block off the AIs in the north from settling south, the 1st two cities I'd Settle would be Gold/Wines/Flood Plains City 4Tiles south of the Mali Horses and the 2nd city would be Corn/Marble City NW of the Marble in the North.
As long as you keep your boarders Closed you can peacefully settle in the southern half of your empire.
The City NW of the Marble will probably a have A LOT of overlapping with the City attempting to working the fish in the east. But it's worth it if it blocks your AI Neighbours from settling south plus it allows you to have the option of building the Great Library, your favorite Wonder
LOL
Beware of AI gallys that may attempt to settle south pass your cultural broaders
Their gonna help you block off the AIs in the north from settling south, the 1st two cities I'd Settle would be Gold/Wines/Flood Plains City 4Tiles south of the Mali Horses and the 2nd city would be Corn/Marble City NW of the Marble in the North.
As long as you keep your boarders Closed you can peacefully settle in the southern half of your empire.
The City NW of the Marble will probably a have A LOT of overlapping with the City attempting to working the fish in the east. But it's worth it if it blocks your AI Neighbours from settling south plus it allows you to have the option of building the Great Library, your favorite Wonder
LOLBeware of AI gallys that may attempt to settle south pass your cultural broaders
Cabledawg
King
Green and orange dot will seal off the north. Both can be moved somewhat if you dont want to settle 1 tile off the coast or want the gold. Orange dot grabs the gems, but if Brennus has got there first, you can back up and grab the marble. None of this matters if copper shows up.
ratrangerm
Prince
Got around to this thread late as I was out of town on business last week. C'est la vie.
The Kublai Khan ALC reminds me that I should play as Kublai again. His combination of Aggressive and Creative traits can be very useful for Domination victories.
But anyway... I'd definitely start founding to the west of Karakorum. Then make your way over to claim those Horses. From there, you can determine whether you need to found new cities yourself or just take what your neighbors have.
The Kublai Khan ALC reminds me that I should play as Kublai again. His combination of Aggressive and Creative traits can be very useful for Domination victories.
But anyway... I'd definitely start founding to the west of Karakorum. Then make your way over to claim those Horses. From there, you can determine whether you need to found new cities yourself or just take what your neighbors have.
Block off opponents? Peacefully settle southern half? That is so role-playingly wrong
If we are shooting for a Keshik rush, seems like the techs have been given to us on a silver platter. get the horse-riders out ASAP. If blocking can be done w/o delaying the rush great. If not, let the builders build, the horde plans on TAKING $$
GS
gluboy2
Chieftain
While I think blocking and peacefully settling your sub-continent is in general a good strategy (especially with this map), with the amazing hut luck and thus projected hordes of early AI-smashing Keshiks, it does seem to take a lower priority here... I would wait for copper before founding your next city, but would definitely grab horses by city #3! Being creative, you might get away with settling at the NW horses by Mansa, perhaps 1S of them. You could farm the 2 flood plains, mine the hills, hook up the horses and hopefully keep enough cultural pressure over them long enough to build some Keshiks and storm Timbuktu! Well, Im still a Prince level player, and last time I played as Mongolia I never built a single Keshik (still won by domination). Anyhow, what are the odds of Keshiks against the fortified Malinese strength 4 archers? Another thing to think about
assuming the horses are hooked up fast, is it best to build a barracks initially, or churn out a few Keshiks first, and hope they earn promotions?
Trying to block off the AIs in the north may be a good idea if you can get your settlers there in time. I think Cabledawg's city placements are a bit too far north though.
If you decide to stick with the Keshik rush you'll need to be thinking about getting a good production city to help Karakorum produce your horde. The tile SE of the plains cows might be the best option as it also can use the deer to feed its miners. Unfortunately this map seems to be giving you nice clusters of hills, but not much food in the vicinity.
I would say research Mining->BW and grow Karakorum while building a couple of warriors and then a setttler. Once the settler is ready we should know where copper is located. If one of the warriors is sent up north we should know where Brennus settled his second city and then we'll know if blocking him off is possible.
If you decide to stick with the Keshik rush you'll need to be thinking about getting a good production city to help Karakorum produce your horde. The tile SE of the plains cows might be the best option as it also can use the deer to feed its miners. Unfortunately this map seems to be giving you nice clusters of hills, but not much food in the vicinity.
I would say research Mining->BW and grow Karakorum while building a couple of warriors and then a setttler. Once the settler is ready we should know where copper is located. If one of the warriors is sent up north we should know where Brennus settled his second city and then we'll know if blocking him off is possible.
Harbourboy
Deity
Remember that this is Kublai Khan not Genghis Khan. Kublai Khan is not as gung-ho as Genghis, so is more likely to put more thought into building up and maintaining his empire, rather than charging off with the hordes.
From the Traits, UU & UB point of view rushing seems to be the best option, but from a starting position and creative trait point of view, blocking off the AI to the north and expanding peacefully seem to be the best option. It's really up to you to decide which option is better for the ALC
If you decide to do the rushing option with your UU, It'd be best to Rush the Celts because the other Civ has a early UU available and you'll suffer much higher loses.
Knock out the Celts first and then go for Mali once you have construction for 7XP Elephants and catapults to run him over or wait for 11XP (Level4) knights in the middle ages when Vassalage and Theocracy are available.
If you decide to do the rushing option with your UU, It'd be best to Rush the Celts because the other Civ has a early UU available and you'll suffer much higher loses.
Knock out the Celts first and then go for Mali once you have construction for 7XP Elephants and catapults to run him over or wait for 11XP (Level4) knights in the middle ages when Vassalage and Theocracy are available.
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