ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
aelf
Ashen One
It would be very easy to do a Keshik rush now. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be as informative as if you had to research at least HBR yourself, as most players have to do. Also, be wary of killing off or making enemies of your neighbours too early. That would leave you with no trading partner. Ideally, there is another AI civ further north, so that you will still have enough trading partners after attacking one neighbour. Otherwise, I vote for settling the choke points first.
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
Ok, this oppurtunity is too good. Build 2 archers, 1 worker and 2 settlers and get those horses from the west. Coupled with your ignorance of early culture (Creative anyone) you have 1-2 Keshik for anti-barb duty in no time, just get BW quickly to whip stuff. Your 2 scouts should scout and fogbust the way.
And then build Keshiks for Christs Sake and smash the Celts.
Then use those Keshiks to plunder the living hell out of Mr M.M.
PLEASE, don´t let the oppurtunity for sick Keshik/Mongol action slip by.
And then build Keshiks for Christs Sake and smash the Celts.
Then use those Keshiks to plunder the living hell out of Mr M.M.
PLEASE, don´t let the oppurtunity for sick Keshik/Mongol action slip by.
Cabledawg
King
When you popped those techs....was there school girl giggling involved?
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
aelf has a point about the Keshik rush, but never look a gift-horse in the mouth is what I say.
Playing as Cathy (Cre/Imp), using that mountain range to seal off the southern half of the continent would be ideal, before building up to crush one or both northern neighbours later in the game.
However, if you're planning on an early rush, blocking off the southern half of the continent isn't really optimal. Not only will you want OB to scout out the location of any metals in Celtic/Mali territory, but better that the AIs settle cities closer to you which might be worth keeping than settle ones further away you'll be forced to raze. Also remember that Keshiks (and Impis) are the fastest units out there so having your own cities close to the enemy isn't all that important.
What is important is getting horses online and getting a strong production city up and running. A commerce city wouldn't be all that bad an idea either.
Based on a cursory glance at the map, city 2 should go on the forested plains hill 1W of the plains cows, making for a strong production location. City 3 should pick up the horses (either 1W or 1NW), and city 4 should go 1NE of the original start location. The siting of city 4 is quite important as it'll be able to work two fur camps and cows for growth - by settling on the original start location, you sacrifice the city's best tile (forested plains furs) for an ocean fish which you'll grab as a resource with the second border pop anyway.
The idea behind city 4 is that it'll have zero distance maintenance, but contribute a decent amount of early commerce by working the two fur camps and the lake. This will help sustain your economy to currency/CoL while your Keshiks are on the rampage.
The bulk of your military will come from the capital and city 2, with horseypig able to contribute the odd Keshik and furcow the occasional axe/archer for garrison duty in new acquisitions.
Playing as Cathy (Cre/Imp), using that mountain range to seal off the southern half of the continent would be ideal, before building up to crush one or both northern neighbours later in the game.
However, if you're planning on an early rush, blocking off the southern half of the continent isn't really optimal. Not only will you want OB to scout out the location of any metals in Celtic/Mali territory, but better that the AIs settle cities closer to you which might be worth keeping than settle ones further away you'll be forced to raze. Also remember that Keshiks (and Impis) are the fastest units out there so having your own cities close to the enemy isn't all that important.
What is important is getting horses online and getting a strong production city up and running. A commerce city wouldn't be all that bad an idea either.
Based on a cursory glance at the map, city 2 should go on the forested plains hill 1W of the plains cows, making for a strong production location. City 3 should pick up the horses (either 1W or 1NW), and city 4 should go 1NE of the original start location. The siting of city 4 is quite important as it'll be able to work two fur camps and cows for growth - by settling on the original start location, you sacrifice the city's best tile (forested plains furs) for an ocean fish which you'll grab as a resource with the second border pop anyway.
The idea behind city 4 is that it'll have zero distance maintenance, but contribute a decent amount of early commerce by working the two fur camps and the lake. This will help sustain your economy to currency/CoL while your Keshiks are on the rampage.
The bulk of your military will come from the capital and city 2, with horseypig able to contribute the odd Keshik and furcow the occasional axe/archer for garrison duty in new acquisitions.
What the... I am gone for 3 days for a long weekend away with friends and this thread has already 7 pages and all the fun about philosophing what to do at start (my favourite part) has already been done. Grmbllll 
Getting the horses online would be a death blow to both advisaries. They won't have a lot to bring in against the keshiks. Research BW as soon as possible though to see if they have copper. Spears will still be a pain in the a.. to handle. But then again keshiks are wonderfull pillagers so you can take out the mines if needed. Orange dot of cabledawg is interesting although I would move it 2S. It still seals of the north, gets marble online and reduces maintenance. If you want to concentrate on a keshik rush then make sure you get some production cities going. The fur city is for later because you already have the required techs and you don't need a science boost from that site. So maybe get orange dot first to seal of north and then work your way towards the horses.
Getting the horses online would be a death blow to both advisaries. They won't have a lot to bring in against the keshiks. Research BW as soon as possible though to see if they have copper. Spears will still be a pain in the a.. to handle. But then again keshiks are wonderfull pillagers so you can take out the mines if needed. Orange dot of cabledawg is interesting although I would move it 2S. It still seals of the north, gets marble online and reduces maintenance. If you want to concentrate on a keshik rush then make sure you get some production cities going. The fur city is for later because you already have the required techs and you don't need a science boost from that site. So maybe get orange dot first to seal of north and then work your way towards the horses.
Cabledawg's dotmap is exactly what I would do.
Those are the only cities you need!
If you're looking for an even faster start, settle on the horses.
archer, settler, archer, settler, worker, worker, worker in capital
barracks, ger, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik in horse city.
granary, barracks, ger, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik in city n°3.
no more brennus, no more MM, domination in 1AD
(not really, if there is another, bigger continent out there, but having your own continent in 1000 BC would be cool, don't you think?)
Those are the only cities you need!
If you're looking for an even faster start, settle on the horses.
archer, settler, archer, settler, worker, worker, worker in capital
barracks, ger, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik in horse city.
granary, barracks, ger, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik, keshik in city n°3.
no more brennus, no more MM, domination in 1AD
(not really, if there is another, bigger continent out there, but having your own continent in 1000 BC would be cool, don't you think?)
Ecofarm
Deity
Those fur tiles are amazing. There are 2 reasons that they will both be forrested very soon. 1st, the unforested tile is surrounded by 4 forest, and has fresh water. 2nd, you wont be touching that tile or any of the adjacent ones for some time. I think, though, that they are red herrings, as is the fish. It is one of the most torturous BFC situations I have ever seen. The tech poping is equally unique. Very entertaining thread thusfar! I'm only sorry that I cannot see how early keshiks can happen. I hope there is copper between the horses and your cap, but even then rushing via the third city (and having it connected to others as well !?), seems like a very late rush - too late for a primarily keshik army.
Is it possible to create a remote keshik factory before grabbing copper and connecting cities? Drop on the horses and chop with every worker available? When all the forests around the horses are expended, you could begin connecting cities for a later cat/copper supported rush. This might even be possible with "Mansa's" horses. It just seems too far away. Maybe you could send a settler, an archer, and workers to Mansa's horses, chop out a horde, take all of Mansa's cities, move palace, and gift the old cap to a distant civ, creating other-continant problems for Brennus (close borders and likely different religions). This would also serve to distract the other-continant civ with a need to reinforce a city far from home. Of course, skirmishers make this gambit even more far fetched (pun intended).
After all, the Mongolians were nomads, often moving to new "homes" as resources (man made and natural) presented themselves, right? Maybe I'm just crazy - crazy like a fox (or like a beaver on forrested plains with a river) ! If only it was noble level.... it just might work.
Is it possible to create a remote keshik factory before grabbing copper and connecting cities? Drop on the horses and chop with every worker available? When all the forests around the horses are expended, you could begin connecting cities for a later cat/copper supported rush. This might even be possible with "Mansa's" horses. It just seems too far away. Maybe you could send a settler, an archer, and workers to Mansa's horses, chop out a horde, take all of Mansa's cities, move palace, and gift the old cap to a distant civ, creating other-continant problems for Brennus (close borders and likely different religions). This would also serve to distract the other-continant civ with a need to reinforce a city far from home. Of course, skirmishers make this gambit even more far fetched (pun intended).
After all, the Mongolians were nomads, often moving to new "homes" as resources (man made and natural) presented themselves, right? Maybe I'm just crazy - crazy like a fox (or like a beaver on forrested plains with a river) ! If only it was noble level.... it just might work.
Well, here I was about to compose a rant about how everyone's ignoring the importance of those fur tiles. C'mon, people! Yeah, I know fur camps normally suck, but those are PLAINS fur. That's like having a fully grown town you can work right away, with plenty of fertile land adjacent to support it. Yeah, I know production is important, but so is commerce...after all, Animal Husbandry and Horseback Riding aren't going to research themselves...
...and then, Sisiutil popped all those huts.
I guess this game's in the bag now. Settle Cabledawg's orange dot first (or somewhere near it) which will seal off Brennus and establish a rally point for the coming invasion. Don't bother with sealing off Mansa, though -- too far away, and it's more cost-effective to let Manny build the cities for you.
3rd city should be the SW horses, but I'd move it 1N of the red dot...yes, whales are tempting (3 of 'em?? WOW!) but remember that you can't improve them for centuries. I'd also build a 4th production city somewhere -- yellow dot looks good, or further inland. Silk city can wait until later.
Mining/BW is a no-brainer. Follow that with Fishing/Sailing, so the horse city will be connected via the coast (as long barbarians don't build a city down there!) Wipe out Brennus, then turn on Mansa and take a few cities until he capitulates. Mansa would make a great vassal, he can research techs while you seek out new societies to pillage and plunder.
...and then, Sisiutil popped all those huts.
I guess this game's in the bag now. Settle Cabledawg's orange dot first (or somewhere near it) which will seal off Brennus and establish a rally point for the coming invasion. Don't bother with sealing off Mansa, though -- too far away, and it's more cost-effective to let Manny build the cities for you.
3rd city should be the SW horses, but I'd move it 1N of the red dot...yes, whales are tempting (3 of 'em?? WOW!) but remember that you can't improve them for centuries. I'd also build a 4th production city somewhere -- yellow dot looks good, or further inland. Silk city can wait until later.Mining/BW is a no-brainer. Follow that with Fishing/Sailing, so the horse city will be connected via the coast (as long barbarians don't build a city down there!) Wipe out Brennus, then turn on Mansa and take a few cities until he capitulates. Mansa would make a great vassal, he can research techs while you seek out new societies to pillage and plunder.
carl corey
Deity
I wouldn't care much about all the dotmaps for now. You still have to locate copper, and unless you're going to settle horses early you're going to need copper as soon as possible. Archers are ok, but not being protective they're of course no match for barb axemen.
I think you should plan for the horse city to be city #4. Once you hook up the horses all your cities will be able to crank out Keshiks; you don't have to wait for it to develop. If you build it early you have to wait to hook it up anyway and pay maintenance as you go. I agree that it should be between the horse and the pig for rapid pig access and the extra land squares. The whales *look* nice but they're irrelevant until after you expect to have effectively won.
The #2 city should go on the SE coastal wine. It's not on Calebdawg's dotmap presumably because it's only OK longterm and because of the horror reaction to settling on a resource but it's a total killer city early. Fish, pigs, and a mined riverside wine tile make it a super city for the initial rush when the population is only 5.
#3 city should probably pick up copper. Otherwise, I'm torn between Calebdawg's yellow dot and the city 6E of the capital for the cows, silk, and river. The yellow dot is a great early production city but your empire may end up too low on commerce and you need good money to support that distant horse city and a rampaging army. The cow site will, I figure, sacrifice 2 production for 5 commerce and better growth options for when you start lifting the pop caps.
I don't see any point in blocking. It's expensive maintenencewise and you're just going to take their cities anyway. Cities near you will actually be faster to conquer and cheaper to hold, so "bring 'em on!"
The #2 city should go on the SE coastal wine. It's not on Calebdawg's dotmap presumably because it's only OK longterm and because of the horror reaction to settling on a resource but it's a total killer city early. Fish, pigs, and a mined riverside wine tile make it a super city for the initial rush when the population is only 5.
#3 city should probably pick up copper. Otherwise, I'm torn between Calebdawg's yellow dot and the city 6E of the capital for the cows, silk, and river. The yellow dot is a great early production city but your empire may end up too low on commerce and you need good money to support that distant horse city and a rampaging army. The cow site will, I figure, sacrifice 2 production for 5 commerce and better growth options for when you start lifting the pop caps.
I don't see any point in blocking. It's expensive maintenencewise and you're just going to take their cities anyway. Cities near you will actually be faster to conquer and cheaper to hold, so "bring 'em on!"
An amazing start that will allow several strategies to work from here on. Kublai is Agressive and Creative and has the Keshlik UU so how to best combine those... obviously a war of expansion? Your lucky huts mean that pressure is off research (at least for a while), now you need to build the infrastructure to exploit the military advantage.
The Keshlik costs 50 hammers and with Ger and barracks gets 7 exp straight from the production facility. But it ain't that good at attacking or defending cities unless they are weak (and hence not worth much). Attacking with an unsupported stack of Keshliks is a weak strategy in my opinion. So you need to build a balanced force of infantry (axe, swords and spear initially) to accompany a powerful force of Keshlik and you need workers to build roads to enable fast movement.
What is needed now is rapid settling of 2 or 3 cities to get the necessary production. I would settle the first near a source of copper, if you get one, otherwise settle in the original starting tile to grab the furs and fish resources and work the cow and a great whipping city. The library + food will also let you make your first GS there as well between whips. You need to settle the Horse/Pig/Whale city either 2nd or 3rd. I would build a road the whole way there.
Don't worry about other civs settling near you or grabbing resources (except horses)... they are just easy targets for your armies to take quickly. Your main enemy will be the costs of running an expanded empire so you need to consider getting Currency and courthouses in the mid term and before over extending.
The Keshlik costs 50 hammers and with Ger and barracks gets 7 exp straight from the production facility. But it ain't that good at attacking or defending cities unless they are weak (and hence not worth much). Attacking with an unsupported stack of Keshliks is a weak strategy in my opinion. So you need to build a balanced force of infantry (axe, swords and spear initially) to accompany a powerful force of Keshlik and you need workers to build roads to enable fast movement.
What is needed now is rapid settling of 2 or 3 cities to get the necessary production. I would settle the first near a source of copper, if you get one, otherwise settle in the original starting tile to grab the furs and fish resources and work the cow and a great whipping city. The library + food will also let you make your first GS there as well between whips. You need to settle the Horse/Pig/Whale city either 2nd or 3rd. I would build a road the whole way there.
Don't worry about other civs settling near you or grabbing resources (except horses)... they are just easy targets for your armies to take quickly. Your main enemy will be the costs of running an expanded empire so you need to consider getting Currency and courthouses in the mid term and before over extending.
I suggest that you block enemy expansion by founding those two recommended blocking cities. Kill one of them (I suggest Mansa) soon with Keshiks, but leave him one city so you can do at least some trading with another civ. Mansa can even trade with you in spite of your declaration of war. (If you find third AI then it does not matter, of course.) When you have traded their most useful techs, conquer whole continent with elephants and cats, should be easy with gers.
Settle 1W of the cows first for an awesome production city with 2 food sources and a ton of hills, even a tile of river for waterwheels later on. Then go 1NW of the horses for a decent city with a really good food source and plenty of grassland and most importantly, horses. After that the two spots towards the enemy are good ones, if they beat you to it, you have an awesome production city to unleash your Keshik horde, burn anything you don't want and make room for those cities.
Agree with everyone who votes for early war. Kill one rival, cripple the other.
Come on -- HBR on a hut pop? It's kismet.
As UncleJJ points out, keshiks are expensive, and they're not ideal for capturing cities. But against archers in non-hill cities with 20% defense, they'll do fine. If your rush is early enough, they'll sweep all before them.
Against hill cities or cities that have reached 40%, not so great, but they're still plunderers par excellence. Kill your opponents' metal, and you don't have to fear Spearmen; your keshiks can then run free until you decide to make peace, or bring up Axemen to finish the job.
Waldo
Come on -- HBR on a hut pop? It's kismet.
As UncleJJ points out, keshiks are expensive, and they're not ideal for capturing cities. But against archers in non-hill cities with 20% defense, they'll do fine. If your rush is early enough, they'll sweep all before them.
Against hill cities or cities that have reached 40%, not so great, but they're still plunderers par excellence. Kill your opponents' metal, and you don't have to fear Spearmen; your keshiks can then run free until you decide to make peace, or bring up Axemen to finish the job.
Waldo
Galileo44
Great Scientist
Yeah, settle using the dotmap. Get that horse city quickly, as creative matches a capital on early culture, if you get to the city first, Mansa will look on as you use the horses one tile from his borders.
I do disagree with you on the point off attacking with unsuported stakcs :
the 2 promotions have to be the flanking I and II ... with 30% chance withdraw, and an early rush, your kelshik will probably only face archer and be able to touch them before a second one "Finish him"...
By researching BW, you'll be able to find copper mines and pillage them in order to avoid spears ...
Rushing the south horse city may allow you to build very fast one or 2 kelshik for defense (they will also gain promotions!) ... after the linkage with the capitole, pumping 6 or more kelshik may probably be enough for razing brennus ...
I have to put my vote in for a Keshik rush. I disagree with supporting units. Keshiks NEED TO GET A ROLLING if you want ANY sucess because Axes and Spears WILL be there and by the time you get to the horses you need to pump as many out and wipe out the foul enemies!
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
yeah i almost posted about that earlier. hubby and i played a game last week where barbs blocked our trade routes with vicky at least 3 times. but we were playing on quick speed which is really different, so i'm not as worried here.
yeah we still don't know if it's just us 3. fractal map, we can't assume that it's just a continent that ends to the north where we haven't explored yet.CivSetä;5197768 said:
if it is just the three of us, i'd do the exact opposite of what you've suggested. if i was leaving them alive with the intent to get techs in trade, brennus would be the one i'd cripple and leave alive just barely to meet the "must known 2 living civs" rule. i'd leave mansa with enough territory to tech ... he's better at it, and he has no issue about trading monopoly techs. no point in letting them live if they aren't teching fast enough to trade, and if he turns out to tech too fast, well, we hurt him again *giggle*.
he is indeed the bestest vassal i've ever had for tech help. i've never tried the 'get a vassal to help fight wars for you' thing.
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