ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

Well, let's discuss this very valid point. If I had not popped the huts for these techs, how would I have proceeded? I still would have pursued Agriculture and then Animal Husbandry to reveal the location of horses; fortunately those are good worker techs as well. I would have followed those up with Archery still, pretty much as I did in the game, since horses are far away and it will take several turns to reveal copper. Meanwhile, I want to be able to build some half-decent defensive units. Then I probably would have teched through Mining and Bronze Working while expanding to claim the horses, then I would have researched HBR.

Not a bad way to deal with the problem. I guess I see it like striking a multi-million-dollar lottery. You're rich, but you got there not because of your own ability. How do you teach people strategies to financial success? You could go through the theory, but it's so much better if people could see you actually do it :p

Yes, it's nitpicking ;) But, anyway, I'd still caution you against being too trigger... err, bowstring-happy. You might need trading partners.
 
Not a bad way to deal with the problem. I guess I see it like striking a multi-million-dollar lottery. You're rich, but you got there not because of your own ability. How do you teach people strategies to financial success? You could go through the theory, but it's so much better if people could see you actually do it :p

Yes, it's nitpicking ;) But, anyway, I'd still caution you against being too trigger... err, bowstring-happy. You might need trading partners.
Having Mansa as a neighbour could work perfectly in that regard, and argues against wiping him out versus just stifling him until he can be vassalized.
 
Well, let's discuss this very valid point. If I had not popped the huts for these techs, how would I have proceeded? I still would have pursued Agriculture and then Animal Husbandry to reveal the location of horses; fortunately those are good worker techs as well. I would have followed those up with Archery still, pretty much as I did in the game, since horses are far away and it will take several turns to reveal copper. Meanwhile, I want to be able to build some half-decent defensive units. Then I probably would have teched through Mining and Bronze Working while expanding to claim the horses, then I would have researched HBR.

Well, that´s a big if there, because you got HBR already. I am rather a lurker in the ALC threads, but this time I think you really, really should take advantage of having keshiks early, and if only just for style.

A good tactic of early and consistent pillaging was pointed out, and it might be an even better idea. Please, Sisiutil don´t repeat the Hannibal game where a fine UU was wasted.;)
 
Not a bad way to deal with the problem. I guess I see it like striking a multi-million-dollar lottery. You're rich, but you got there not because of your own ability. How do you teach people strategies to financial success? You could go through the theory, but it's so much better if people could see you actually do it :p

Yes, it's nitpicking ;) But, anyway, I'd still caution you against being too trigger... err, bowstring-happy. You might need trading partners.


But which one should be kept alive? I find Brennus to be untrustworthy, but Mansa needs to be stopped before he becomes too advanced. I suppose Sisiutil could destroy Brennus first, then vassalize Mansa later. Would it cripple Mansa's ability to trade useful techs, or would it still allow Sisiutil to ignore certain paths and trade for them later? If Sisiutil (or any of you guys) believe that Mansa will most likely capitulate without having to hurt him too much, then this is the path I suggest. Another civ showing up on the continent could change things a lot though.
 
But which one should be kept alive? I find Brennus to be untrustworthy, but Mansa needs to be stopped before he becomes too advanced. I suppose Sisiutil could destroy Brennus first, then vassalize Mansa later. Would it cripple Mansa's ability to trade useful techs, or would it still allow Sisiutil to ignore certain paths and trade for them later? If Sisiutil (or any of you guys) believe that Mansa will most likely capitulate without having to hurt him too much, then this is the path I suggest. Another civ showing up on the continent could change things a lot though.
I'm leaning this way myself: kill Brennus, keep Mansa alive but contained, then make him a vassal at the earliest opportunity. That would be cool--we haven't seen an ALC where I've really attempted to leverage the vassal system. In fact, I don't think I've taken on a single vassal in any of the Warlords ALCs. And is there any better candidate for a vassal besides Mansa?

My Woodsman II Scout north of Timbuktu will continue exploring and dodging barbs to see if there's anyone else around.
 
But which one should be kept alive? I find Brennus to be untrustworthy, but Mansa needs to be stopped before he becomes too advanced. I suppose Sisiutil could destroy Brennus first, then vassalize Mansa later. Would it cripple Mansa's ability to trade useful techs, or would it still allow Sisiutil to ignore certain paths and trade for them later? If Sisiutil (or any of you guys) believe that Mansa will most likely capitulate without having to hurt him too much, then this is the path I suggest. Another civ showing up on the continent could change things a lot though.

Imho, Mansa is only a real problem if he can leverage his strengths, which need big cities with lot of money.

If you can reduce him to a handfull of cities without his holy city and capitol, he becomes a good partner, even without becoming a vassal, and wont be able to tech madly ahead

I happened to me on vanilla, he had only 5 cities, but was very useful for trading without being annoying. Granted, it was on prince, but the fact he need some space is still true on upper levels.
 
Without knowing where the copper is, I'd settle Purple first. I think the solid purple is the better choice (even though it's on the wine) for both fish and the pigs, but there's another nice site three west of there, right by the marble. Unfortunately, the tiles in between also might have their advantages, especially if there's copper up there.

I'd settle light-blue next, by the silk... especially if there's copper nearby.

Third up would be dark-blue, for your horses.

Red next, for a production city. If there's copper here, but not at purple or light-blue, I'd swap it with light-blue.

Yellow should follow.

And maybe Green, if you need yet another production city.
 

Attachments

  • ALC14-DotMap.jpg
    ALC14-DotMap.jpg
    89.6 KB · Views: 557
Horses are very far away. Elephants are in your big fat cross. Taking cities is easy once you get Catapults.
Why not just wait until Construction to take out a neighboring Civ?

You'll have your section of the peninsula blocked off, you have some locations with spectacular production capability and you won't even have to worry about Barbarians after your 4th city since you'll have the area fairly well covered with archers and similar units.


You have an outstanding tech position, so you can go for economic growth early even while you expand quickly with a couple of settlers. This start just screams "builder" to me until you run out of local room and need to take a neighbor's land to expand more.


I'd shoot for Masonry relatively soon after Bronze (and possibly Iron) to take advantage of your Marble resource and generate some cash from a failed Wonder. Why not take 2 gold for every hammer produced? That sounds like one of the best deals in the game, early on.

Writing and Alphabet after you have a few cities will let you trade techs and your current tech position will let you get those early enough that you can make some good friends while still improving your strategic advantage.

The only thing that I can see as a worry is civic and city upkeep. You'll be building as many cities as your empire can manage. As long as you have a commerce city or two (that nice site up north with a pair of gems and a ton of river grassland/jungle looks lovely), you should be fine for a while. After a while, when you need to generate more cash, just go conquor yourself a religion. :mischief:



...and man, Agriculture, Hunting, Wheel, Animal Husbandry, Archery, Pottery, and Horseback Riding all before 3000 BCE. :crazyeye: That's amazing. It might even be worth considering grabbing Mining and then going on a run straight through Writing to Alphabet so that you can just trade your way into dominance.

You certainly have the goods to trade for Fishing, Sailing, Bronze and Iron Working along with whatever religious techs your neighbors are willing to send your way.
 
I say found 2nd or 3rd city on the horses. I'm with 50_dollar_bag on the promotions, too. You should at least try to pop out a couple early to get XP from the barbs.
 
I think the civ that accepts the capitulation has to have feudalism. Don't think the other one has to have it. In my last game with Isabella I had Feudalism before my first victim and it had the option to capitulate.

i've wondered about that in the past, in those 'oh YUCK do i take so-and-so's capitulation or do i reject and wait to see if he vassalizes to such-and-such when i hit enter.' i asked specifically about it and was told (no dissenting opinions, for whatever that's worth) that feudalism works the same way as paper/alphabet/currency/military tradition/etc do. if either party knows it, the deal can be made.

logic-wise, it would make sense to require the master to know the tech. but i guess the game just isn't coded for that. if anybody has found otherwise please let me know, i go purely by what i've read, code is mumbo jumbo to me.

just putting this out there in case mansa pops feudalism from a hut :lol: (it's not a poppable tech, i know, but the thought made me giggle anyway).
 
Kublai,

Your granddad is shocked at your behavior. Grow a backbone and make a horde!

Ghenghis.jpg


Your descendant* is shocked at your actions.

Khan1.jpg


* Yeah, I know that they are not actually related. He still thinks you should make a horde of Keshiks, though.
 
Round 4: 3280 BC to 2080 BC

After exploring the coast a little more, I parked one of my Scouts near the SW horse tile to ensure no barb city appeared there:

ALC14_2080BC_01.jpg


This is also where I'll likely found the city.

My other Scout, the one with Woodsman II, kept exploring the north; there turned out to be a lot of north to explore. He went east first, and met another neighbour:

ALC14_2080BC_02.jpg


Then the Scout turned around without all of that NE territory explored. He was going very far afield and there was territory closer to me, directly north, that I felt I should reveal first. (This despite being unsure exactly where Rome is located.) If the Scout survives that long, he'll explore the northeastern reaches of what is turning out to be a rather large continent later on.

Another religion was founded, this time by Brennus, and he converted right away:

ALC14_2080BC_03.jpg


So that will set up tension between himself and Mansa. Buddhism spread to Karakorum (not surprising--that river links up with Malinese territory). However, I have not converted. What with Brennus founding Hinduism, I'd like to see how things pan out diplomatically. I put a camp on the Ivory and I can soon do the same for the fur, so I won't need a state religion's happiness boost for a while.

I wasn't done meeting other civs:

ALC14_2080BC_04.jpg


Like I said, a very large continent. I later discovered that England is located almost directly north of Mali. If I meet two more civs, we'll obviously know we're on a pangaea map.

Relative to the other civs, thanks to those huts, I'm doing quite respectably in terms of research:

ALC14_2080BC_05.jpg


Just behind Mansa, and someone who's out-teching even him (scary thought, that).

I had researched Mining earlier in the round. In 2410 BC, I finished researching its follow-up tech:

ALC14_2080BC_06.jpg


I had to keep reminding myself, before this, not to move my lone Worker into forests that I couldn't chop yet! :lol: Now I can. I also changed civics, natch:

ALC14_2080BC_07.jpg


In addition, I have not one but two sources of copper nearby:

ALC14_2080BC_08.jpg


So if I had settled in the blue circle after all, that copper would be workable by the capital. Oh well, I can still work it right away, thanks to the creative trait. Serendipitously, I had been building a road westwards towards the horses (eventually), so I was able to get that tile improved and copper available to the capital PDQ.

If you look at the above screenshot carefully, you'll also notice that Churchill converted to Buddhism. If the religious alliances hold, it means I could likely attack Brennus without earning a diplomatic penalty from either Mansa or Churchill. Don't worry, though, I'll earn diplomatic penalties from them soon enough. Heh heh heh...

I started researching Writing next. With all the techs I have, plus contact with 4 other civs, I think it makes sense to bee-line towards Alphabet and see what I can get for things like HBR. Although Mansa is always a good tech trading partner, he's close by, so I may want to be careful. Churchill and Caesar are further away, so if I need to make a chancier tech trade, I would prefer to do it with them. Writing also means I can get Open Borders agreements. With barb units starting to appear, it may help my wandering Scout survive longer if he can duck into friendly, well-guarded territory.

I built two Archers before starting on a Settler in the capital. You can see one Archer above, near the western copper. My thinking was that I would either (a) found a city out there, (b) fog-bust for the Worker laying down a road to the horses, or (c) both of the above. However, I see several of you are still pushing to settle a city north of Karakorum, right on Brennus' doorstep. That's still an option and we can discuss it further.

Meanwhile, my luck with huts was holding strong:

ALC14_2080BC_09.jpg


ALC14_2080BC_10.jpg


More gold for the treasury, nice. The Scout survived the ensuing battle with that lion, but barely. He was still healing by the end of the round.

I decided to end the round in 2080 BC when the Settler finished in Karakorum. I started work on one of Aggressive's cheap barracks:

ALC14_2080BC_11.jpg


The copper is now hooked up and I think it would make sense to build/whip and Axeman or two. After that, what do you think of another Settler, maybe a Worker, a Ger, and then more units?

Here's a look at the map, suitable for dot-mapping:

ALC14_2080BC_12.jpg


I like DarkFyre99's dotmap quite a bit, although I think it needs to be adjusted so I have a city working the copper near the capital (seems a waste to just leave it there). His red city could shift northwards, keeping the cows, while another city is later placed on the south coast to claim both the deer and the whales. But of course I'll consider other options.

City founding is really going to be the focus of the next round. There seem to be two factions forming. One group of you is advocating peaceful expansion by first blocking off the southern portion of the continent. This group would likely advocate sending the Settler north, somewhere near the corn, marble, and wine, and Brennus. The other group is advocating a Keshik rush; this group would likely advocate settling a city to the west. This city would likely claim the copper (and maybe the wheat and cows?) and be a production city; it would also serve as a way-point to the horses, which would be city #3.

Given the location of the Archer currently, I'm obviously leaning towards the views of the second camp. Frankly, after the incredible luck with the huts, I don't see how I can possibly build peacefully and still consider this an ALC, the whole purpose of which is to exploit the leader's unique characteristics. I mean, come on: the only way the game could have more clearly given me an opportunity to exploit the leader's UU and UB is if I had horses in Karakorum's fat cross!

Short-term, then, I'm thinking of founding three cities, one in the mid-west, the other for the horses, then building a horde to pillage and cripple Mansa and Brennus. I'll wipe Brennus off the map; Mansa I may simply leave weak until I can vassalize him. Churchill and Caesar I'll leave alone for now; I don't know where Caesar is yet, so he's obviously quite far from me, and Churchill is Protective, so I don't want to take him on until I at least have Catapults.

Long-term, this plan should give me plenty of territory. I should be able to either capture or eventually build cities in the NW and NE spots the blocker-builders are advocating. And then some. So I should be able to tech nicely with several decent cities, and take on Churchill and Caesar later on. If the continent is large enough, and I get the feeling it is, I may be able to claim a domination victory without having to send troops overseas. :goodjob:

EDIT: I almost forgot--here's a look at the northern portion of the continent:

ALC14_2080BC_13.jpg


I haven't explored too far east beyond that rice tile. My Scout is healing to the far north, in the desert near the stone and copper. I'm thinking he should head east next, through that remaining fog to his east, and then off to the northeastern arm of the continent again. Once the horse city is founded, my other Scout can head up to explore the remainder of the northwest.
 
I think you really need to decide on what strategy you're going to pursue before deciding on where to found your second city.

If you're going to go for the Keshik rush on Brennus then I would say a production city to the west of Karakorum would probably be best. Just N of the cows could actually work both copper mines. Its overall potential is a bit limited by food, but it could be a strong early production city. And it sort of paves the way to the horse city.

If you're having second thoughts about the Keshiks and want to live peacefully for a while you might want to look into a city to the north, or maybe go after the corn/silk city.
 
I still say you should kill Brennus first. However, I'm not sure it will still be possible to vassalize Mansa. He could possibly become vassal to another civ while you're at war with him. He's a notorious coward and will vassalize to anyone at the first opportunity. Pursue that strategy at your own discretion, but you should still send one Keshik at Brennus for each of his gods. :king:
 
ALC14_2080BC_12.jpg


Since were only talking about where to put city number 2...
Blue dot gets both coppers, but short on food

Green dot is pretty standard getting the 2 silks, cow and copper. It also leaves the wheat for Deer/Whale city. Green dot with some farms will have really nice procuction.

Orange dot is a great Ironworks city and allows the silks to be worked by another city...possibly a commerce only city.
Orange dot could pump out units rapidly. Can the wheat be irrigated?....if it can, I cant see it.
 
"Another religion was founded, this time by Brennus, and he converted right away: So that will set up tension between himself and Mansa."

and will give his holy city more culture. not an "OMG run in panic!!!" notice, just something to keep in mind while dotmapping and making plans for slaughterfests and shrine-stealing.

"I started researching Writing next. With all the techs I have, plus contact with 4 other civs, I think it makes sense to bee-line towards Alphabet and see what I can get for things like HBR. Although Mansa is always a good tech trading partner, he's close by, so I may want to be careful. Churchill and Caesar are further away, so if I need to make a chancier tech trade, I would prefer to do it with them."

all good points. and in cases with other factors being equal (worst enemy status, techs available for trade, etc.) i tend towards trading first with the guys who don't tend to tech well and have lower trading limits. they'll be less useful down the road, so i use 'em up in the window that they are. saving mansa for later trades fits in that plan perfectly.

"My Scout is healing to the far north, in the desert near the stone and copper."

that's the S we know ... the wonder resources stick out in your mind don't they? *giggle*.

quoting Rancid Sushi: "However, I'm not sure it will still be possible to vassalize Mansa. He could possibly become vassal to another civ while you're at war with him. He's a notorious coward and will vassalize to anyone at the first opportunity."

so very true. and multiply by idunnohowmuchmore if my info in post #172 is correct (i'm fairly sure that it is, and i emphasize that i'd like to be corrected if i'm wrong). recap: feudalism works like all techs, either party knowing it works, it doesn't have to be the master. so once mansa knows it, he can wimp out to someone military-strong but tech-backwards that, say, doesn't even know the monarchy prereq. check religiously every turn once he stops refusing to talk whether capitulation has turned from red to white; if it has, consider him in wimp mode and add that to your calculations.

he's a great tech-helper vassal, but in every case that i've used him that way he's ended up someone's worst enemy (twice it was someone he'd not yet met), go figure. again not a panic-notice, just a typical kmad oh-btw thought.
 
I think you really need to decide on what strategy you're going to pursue before deciding on where to found your second city.

If you're going to go for the Keshik rush on Brennus then I would say a production city to the west of Karakorum would probably be best. Just N of the cows could actually work both copper mines. Its overall potential is a bit limited by food, but it could be a strong early production city. And it sort of paves the way to the horse city.
Food is a bit of an issue here (plains cows are the weakest food special out there - more of a production tile) until you get to CS and can chain-irrigate some of those grasslands. However, I think the grassland copper you'll be able to work offsets that to a certain degree.

It also allows you to found a wheat/deer/whale city 4S, which is another good production site (they overlap a bit, but neither city will have enough food to work all its mines until fairly late in the game so that's not really an issue). Both can build Keshiks at a respectable rate, although the southern spot can probably wait until slightly later on.

I also think Cabledawg's red dot should go 1N. You're not financial so swapping coast for grassland makes all the sense in the world. Being able to work the whale post-optics isn't worth the trade-off in my opinion.

The giant continent, coupled with an early rush and longer-term tech to cavalry (and cannon) makes an early domination win a reasonable target for the game itself. Either that or conquest-by-vassal for something different, but that'll depend on whether either of the remaining civs can be reached sufficiently easy.
 
OMG!
You have all it takes for an early AD domination win, and you're still scratching your head???

Did you notice the horses in brennus' land?
You don't even need to get those faraway cities for now. Just build 6 axes and take down brennus. After that it's keshiks all the way to victory!
 
Back
Top Bottom