ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan

[cabert]

MM is the best vassal because :
- he trades monopoly techs
- he trades tech even when annoyed
- he is financial
- he capitulates faster than anyone else = he remains strong.

If we press Brennus down to one small city, while teching to feudalism, we could vassalize both in a few turns, then ask MM to tech to optics/astronomy while we tech to liberalism

 

[NaZdReG]

if westward its going to be I would suggest using your first worker to chop a settler. fogbust your way to city spot #1. use your worker MP style and pave a road across to it while it builds an archer 1st. have that city then chop/whip a 2nd settler out while the capitol builds a 2nd worker.

capitol then builds archer, barracks, ger
city 2 builds archer, barracks, ger

city 3 when founded really only needs to get the damn horses online, it will be a while before it can contribute to massed keshik production.

need to see what is northeast, possibly another AI?

NaZ

 

[UncleJJ]

I do disagree with you on the point off attacking with unsuported stakcs :
the 2 promotions have to be the flanking I and II ... with 30% chance withdraw, and an early rush, your kelshik will probably only face archer and be able to touch them before a second one "Finish him"...
By researching BW, you'll be able to find copper mines and pillage them in order to avoid spears ...

Rushing the south horse city may allow you to build very fast one or 2 kelshik for defense (they will also gain promotions!) ... after the linkage with the capitole, pumping 6 or more kelshik may probably be enough for razing brennus ...

I have never found it worthwhile to use any of the mounted UUs as the main means to wiping out another civ early in the game (with the exception of War Chariots). You can certainly take out the weaker cities defended by only an archer or two but a capital with at least 40% culture and several fortified units is horribly expensive unless you have unrealistic amounts of luck. So I view Keshik as a way to speed conquest up by taking out far flung cities quickly, but not as the main assualt troops against tough targets. I firmly believe in the need for support troops against the enemy capital.

You assume 6 Keshik are enough to take out Brennus's capital. That might be true (if he is not on a hill or has spears) but I assure you that you could take it out and his whole civ faster using axes (assuming we get copper nearby) and a lot cheaper in lost hammers.

A stack of 6 Keshik (with 7 exp) probably need 2 cities and hence 2 Gers ...so the total hammer cost is:
6 Keshik at 50 each = 300
2 Ger at 60 each = 120

For the same hammer cost you could build a stack of 12 axemen and because Kublai is Agressive they also get 2 promotions with only a cheap barracks. Axemen do move slower than Keshik but you don't need all 12 to take out Brennus so war could be declared earlier with confidence. Also Axes will have enough troops to garrison any city worth keeping while the fast moving stack of Keshik can only rely on other Keshiks ... unless they wait for slower troops like archers and axes anyway... In which case why use them as the main assualt troops at all?

I am not sure that flanking 2 is the best promotion for all your Keshiks. That attritional use seems to make them a sort of expensive and inefficient catapult that can't reduce defences. You'll need at least one as a combat1/medic and another as combat1/shock stack protector and anti-spear. Their use is severly curtailed as soon as the enemy has spears or if they have the Protective trait. Incidently Mansa has the Skirmisher as an improved version of the archer so it will be interesting to see how Keshik do against him.

Don't misunderstand me. Keshik are very good troops and can be used in a variety of ways. Just don't expect them to take out cities that are worth keeping in a cost effective way.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

You would indeed go broke founding those far-away cities for horses. Which means you won't even have many Keshiks, and skirmishers are no pushover. What I would do? Two choices:

- Peacefully expand. You got a nice marble spot for oracle, try getting monarchy, alphabet or construction with it. Monarchy to work the wine. Then attack with catapults.
- Found a city right next to the horses, build Keshiks, declare war on Brennus,, pillage him back to stone age (Keshiks walk fast over jungles) but don't attack. Keep building Keshiks with pillage gold, then (and here's the best part) declare war Mansa Musa, and take his cities. Use pillage gold to support CoL research. Workers? Captured workers, theology and feudalism with serfdom should be enough to clear the jungles.

 

[LostCrumb]

You would indeed go broke founding those far-away cities for horses. Which means you won't even have many Keshiks, and skirmishers are no pushover. What I would do? Two choices:

- Peacefully expand. You got a nice marble spot for oracle, try getting monarchy, alphabet or construction with it. Monarchy to work the wine. Then attack with catapults.
- Found a city right next to the horses, build Keshiks, declare war on Brennus,, pillage him back to stone age (Keshiks walk fast over jungles) but don't attack. Keep building Keshiks with pillage gold, then (and here's the best part) declare war Mansa Musa, and take his cities. Use pillage gold to support CoL research. Workers? Captured workers, theology and feudalism with serfdom should be enough to clear the jungles.

I agree with the second option. Pilliage your enemies back to stone age!

Why not build small stacks (2 or 3 units) of Keshiks and pillage all improvements of Brennus’ land and deter him/her from rebuilding them? First target the bronze and iron mines, than everything else. As many people already stated, Keshiks are the ideal pillagers, because they ignore terrain movement costs, so they can move quickly into the mainland of the enemy. When no improvements are left anymore, spread your stack all over Brennus’ empire, so he won’t rebuild anything. You could stay at war virtually for ever, because there will be relatively few battles and the war weariness will stay low.

This strategy has lots of advantages: It allows you to keep the enemy stagnant until you want to conquer his land. It also allows you to keep your empire and you army relatively small, until you really can afford to conquer new cities. At the same time, you get lots of money by pillaging Brennus’ improvements. This will lead to a high research level, while the Brennus’ research is crippled. Another advantage of this strategy is that Brennus’ land cannot be resettled by Mansa Musa or another civilization as it could be if you razed his cities.

The strategy could also be applied to attack other civilizations that are farer away. You won’t conquer cities, so upkeep of far away cities is not a problem. If you are lucky, your neighbors will close their borders for this civilization, so a far away civilization cannot even counter attack you.

I tried this strategy on a lower difficulty level (noble) and it works excellent. I declared war on Ghandi and Mansa Musa simultaneously with just 6 Keshiks. I dedicated only one city to produce Keshiks while the others continued as normal. I pillaged everything and kept Ghandi and Mansa Musa down until the end of the game, when I conquered them with Cavalry. Ghandi didn’t even have Longbows at that time!

Pros & Cons

+ Only a small army needed, so most cities can focus on economy
+ Low empire and army upkeep and additional income from pillaging result in high research level
+ Low war weariness, because few battles compared to city conquering
+ Unlike razed cities, pillaged cities cannot be resettled by other civilizations. The territory just stays useless until you conquer it
- Enemy starts building lots of archers, so conquering the enemy requires additional units.
- It’s a bit of a gamble. The strategy will fail, if not all bronze and iron mines are pillaged early enough

LC

 

[NaZdReG]

I don't think the horses NW could possibly be utilized before the capitol has its 3rd border pop.. taking them from us.

again scout NE and see if there are any horses that way. if so settle north then north again. how will you divide up that area that is pigs, 2x wine, fish?? with the other resources west of that??

now when you do take brennus's capitol over there.. the spot 1-2 south of those horses looks perfect for a watermill ironworks city later. just my .02

NaZ

 

[GeneralGab]

If you get your keshiks up and running early enough, you can use them to conquer your first target. I played a game as Kublai last weekend because I was curious to see if the keshiks were useful. I was lucky enough that my closest neighbour did not get bronze (and actually, neither did I). I built 6 keshiks and went straight for his capital. He only had archers, and a 40% defense, but I still managed to get it. With a Ger and barracks, I had combat III keshiks. After the capital fell, the other cities were easy. Note that this was on Prince however. I went for the capital because it was close, and if I could capture it that would stifle his economy. This might not work in your case, but you've got all the techs already. You just need to hook up horses and find a good production site.

 

[UncleJJ]

If you get your keshiks up and running early enough, you can use them to conquer your first target. I played a game as Kublai last weekend because I was curious to see if the keshiks were useful. I was lucky enough that my closest neighbour did not get bronze (and actually, neither did I). I built 6 keshiks and went straight for his capital. He only had archers, and a 40% defense, but I still managed to get it. With a Ger and barracks, I had combat III keshiks. After the capital fell, the other cities were easy. Note that this was on Prince however. I went for the capital because it was close, and if I could capture it that would stifle his economy. This might not work in your case, but you've got all the techs already. You just need to hook up horses and find a good production site.

I am not arguing that it is impossible to conquer an enemy capital with Keshiks, it certainly is. It is just a weaker stratgey than what I propose so why insist on using it?

My point is that axes can be made earlier and are more cost effective and they can defend a captured city better too. A better strategy than using just Keshiks for everything is to use axes for what they are good for and Keshiks for what they are good for, a combined arms approach. Of course we do need copper to be near for that to be an option.

 

[LucyDuke]

How come nobody has mentioned Mansa's shiny holy city? He can't be vassalized for a long time yet, and he should be dead before it's even an issue, so I'm not understanding that bit. I'd get up in Mansa's face, take his horses, and take his holy city. Let him live if there's nobody else on the continent, but at least take his holy city before he starts to go to church with Brennus. With any luck, Brennus will then go Buddhist and hook you up with plenty of religious espionage, saving you some fuss when you conquer him. Peaceful expansion just doesn't feel right with Kublai. Copper might prove to be a higher priority if it's placed awkwardly, but however the city-founding goes, you gotta start some trouble while the Keshiks are still relevant.

I don't think what I would do is the best plan. I do think you have to take Buddhism's founding into consideration, and not forget to pay back Mansa for the evil he did unto Kublai in the last ALC...

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm leaning towards tempering everyone's enthusiasm for a Keshik rush (which I share) with UncleJJ's caution regarding the limitations of the UU.

LostCrumb's strategy makes a lot of sense to me, frankly. This is a variation, in fact, on the war I fought as Mansa against Kublai in the last game (my, how the wheel of fortune turns). Instead of Chariots, this time I'd leverage the Keshik's strengths (fast movement and pillaging) to get to both Mansa's and Brennus' territory ASAP and then pillage them into stagnation. Follow up, as UncleJJ suggests, with genuine but slower-moving city takers. Remember how much of a push-over Kublai was because he could build nothing but Archers? I could do the same with Brennus and Mansa. If the AI manages to build some Spearmen I could lose a Keshik or two, but if I have enough of them I should be able to kill any weakened Spears and then pillage the copper or iron to ensure I don't see any more of them.

I'm not sure I'm in love with the idea of blocking the AI. It seems very time-consuming and expensive, and I think the focus needs to be further south. Thanks to the huts, I have an opportunity to maximize the Keshiks as I outlined above, and I think I'd be remiss not to be all over that like a dirty shirt. If the AI founds cities in those locations, they'd be the types that UncleJJ says the Keshiks can handle on their own. The Keshiks can either raze them if I don't like the location, or capture them if I do.

 

[Sisiutil]

How come nobody has mentioned Mansa's shiny holy city? He can't be vassalized for a long time yet, and he should be dead before it's even an issue, so I'm not understanding that bit. I'd get up in Mansa's face, take his horses, and take his holy city. Let him live if there's nobody else on the continent, but at least take his holy city before he starts to go to church with Brennus. With any luck, Brennus will then go Buddhist and hook you up with plenty of religious espionage, saving you some fuss when you conquer him. Peaceful expansion just doesn't feel right with Kublai. Copper might prove to be a higher priority if it's placed awkwardly, but however the city-founding goes, you gotta start some trouble while the Keshiks are still relevant.

I don't think what I would do is the best plan. I do think you have to take Buddhism's founding into consideration, and not forget to pay back Mansa for the evil he did unto Kublai in the last ALC...

Now how did I miss noticing that? I was probably too flabbergasted by my hut luck. Well, that doesn't make a huge difference to my approach, but a holy city is obviously very desirable, and especially if it's the capital.

 

[TheArchduke]

I'm leaning towards tempering everyone's enthusiasm for a Keshik rush (which I share) with UncleJJ's caution regarding the limitations of the UU.

The nice thing about Keshik´s though is a better survival rate when you promote their flanking, which imo beats the +10/20 by combat promotions. I am not advocating to not build axeman if you can. But by all means, any only-archer protected city can be easily taken by Keshiks early in the game. And for the big cities, just take along 2-3 axes.

 

[patagonia]

I am not arguing that it is impossible to conquer an enemy capital with Keshiks, it certainly is. It is just a weaker stratgey than what I propose so why insist on using it?

My point is that axes can be made earlier and are more cost effective and they can defend a captured city better too. A better strategy than using just Keshiks for everything is to use axes for what they are good for and Keshiks for what they are good for, a combined arms approach. Of course we do need copper to be near for that to be an option.

I understand what you're saying, and your way is more hammer-efficient, but that basically pigeonholes Kublai into a stereotypical aggressive leader strategy and where's the fun in that? We're Mongols! We want hordes! And besides, with those fortuitous hut pops it'd be a crime not to have some fun with it.

If you build a "traditional" steppe army (ie 100% Keshik) it'll cost you more in hammers, but allow you to reach the enemy faster, march through their lands faster (meaning they have less time to build walls/troops to defend with) and capture their cities faster once war's been declared.

For example:
Promote 1 Keshik to senetry allowing you to scope out the enemy's forces, the bulk of the rest to combat 2. Declare war and charge your stack straight to the enemy capital (maybe using a couple to pillage metal supplies). Take the enemy capital - if the RNG hates you, you'll lose at most one per defender, but it's unlikely to be that bad. The bulk of the stack marches on to the next target while those that have just fought heal in the new city; rinse/repeat adding reinforcements as they're built. The first build in each new city can either be an archer (you've got the tech), or you can have one of your own build a stream of them for the job.

If you focus on building 8-10 Keshiks before declaring and continue for the early part of the war, no AI can withstand the assult, and you'll destroy them before they've had the chance to tech to longbows.

If, at that point you realise you're falling behind another neighbour, you can either (a) use the nicely promoted Keshiks to take a couple of cities off them, or (b) pillage their entire empire back to the stone age allowing you to regroup and overtake them.

There'll be plenty of time to build aggressive maces once the Keshiks have had their heyday (or cheap drydocks for fleet development further down the line) to take advantage of that trait - this slightly suboptimal variation of using a 100% Keshik spam simply allows us to have fun with the UU as well. The only leader I would advise against attacking in such a way is Alex as Phalanx are significantly more potent than traditional spearmen.

 

[uncarved block]

I can only add a little bit to the discussion, but here goes: don't forget the Chariots. You can build two for every Keshik, and they can take care of support roles like Medic, softening up Flanking attacks, and taking care of defending Spearmen. Instead of 6 Keshiks, 4 Keshiks and 4 Chariots might be a more flexible invasion force. Sure, Chariots won't be able to quite keep up, but they'll only be one or two turns behind, instead of the 4 or more Axemen would. And one added benefit is that if you keep a city, you have your anti-Barb units already there to defend, should any Chariots survive.

 

[pigswill]

No vassals before feudalism so that's a point against early war vs Mansa so maybe pillage the neighbours while teching towards construction to roll over the cities. This also means no vassals before longbows are available (minor detail ).

 

[carl corey]

No vassals before feudalism so that's a point against early war vs Mansa so maybe pillage the neighbours while teching towards construction to roll over the cities. This also means no vassals before longbows are available (minor detail ).

I think the civ that accepts the capitulation has to have feudalism. Don't think the other one has to have it. In my last game with Isabella I had Feudalism before my first victim and it had the option to capitulate.

 

[Oko]

If you do manage to get your hands on Keshiks in time, you can easily not only pillage the AI's lands, but also leave the Keshiks in his lands to deny them of working space. If the AI hasnt managed to get copper, which you should be able to deny with pillaging if he has, Keshik's power will make the AI hesitate to attack.

In a recent Kublai-game, albeit on Prince - dont know if on Monarch the AI is more aggressive on these matters - I holed up both Monty and Cyrus who shared my continent inside their capitols, leaving them with nothing but archers. I on the other hand teched up and built axes and a couple cats to take them out. Sure, they built a hefty amount of archers in there, but so what. You got elephants.
All that time, I had couple Keshiks right next to their capitol, denying prime worktiles and ready to pounce on the sad attempts of slipping a settler by.

 

[pigswill]

Thanks carl corey

Learn something every day (that's why I read the forum).

Re pillaging neighbours back tothe stone age (and keeping them there). Its a good strategy to capture your continent.There is a risk that another continent may be teching and trading enthusiastically while your continent falls further behind research wise.

 

[Harbourboy]

Yes, this is the ALC, not a standard powergamer's how to win. We must see a Keshik-a-thon!

 

[Sisiutil]

It would be very easy to do a Keshik rush now. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be as informative as if you had to research at least HBR yourself, as most players have to do.

Well, let's discuss this very valid point. If I had not popped the huts for these techs, how would I have proceeded? I still would have pursued Agriculture and then Animal Husbandry to reveal the location of horses; fortunately those are good worker techs as well. I would have followed those up with Archery still, pretty much as I did in the game, since horses are far away and it will take several turns to reveal copper. Meanwhile, I want to be able to build some half-decent defensive units. Then I probably would have teched through Mining and Bronze Working while expanding to claim the horses, then I would have researched HBR.

So not too different from the current game plan, just with more research required, obviously. As a result I think a city to claim the furs would have been a higher priority, if only for the research boost from their commerce. HBR for Mongolia is similar, in my mind, to Iron Working for the Romans. With most other civs I will trade for the tech later on (provided I have copper or horses for protection). But with Rome, I research IW very early on (I usually go BW -> The Wheel -> IW). Mongolia strikes me as having a very similar need in that regard.

I think the civ that accepts the capitulation has to have feudalism. Don't think the other one has to have it. In my last game with Isabella I had Feudalism before my first victim and it had the option to capitulate.

This is a good point especially when you consider that the AI will likely bee-line Feudalism to get Longbows, as Kublai did when I stifled him in the Mansa game.

As LucyDuke pointed out, though, since Mansa has a holy city, vassalizing him is less attractive than it would normally be--unless it can be done after his holy city falls. The other complication with vassalazing someone so early is there could be plenty of land still available for expansion, and my vassal could conceivably expand enough to free himself from my yoke.