ALC Game 15: Ottoman/Mehmed II

[Killroyan]

Solid start and I expect another sugar or some other resource in the lower uncovered tiles. Cottage heaven with decent production for sure. I always like the warrior first approach to get more huts, especially with your luck Sisiutil. AH, mining, BW and pottery sounds good. But indeed first move the warrior but I don't expect to see a better spot although it could reveal a resource behind the hills on the right. If so you can move 1E saving 1 forest and getting a grassland hill instead of a plains hill.

 

[CivSetä]

Settle in place seems to be the best choice. In my opinion you should start with a worker, you want it out ASAP because:
- You already have rice and two sugar tiles to irrigate, and you want some mines also sooner or later. Worker has enough things to do right from the start.
- You probably have improved all necessary tiles (rice, 1-2 sugar, 2-4 mines) once you finish settler, hence your first worker is ready to improve second city ASAP.
- Because of expansive trait you build worker a bit faster, take advantage of it!

I suggest you start worker-warrior-settler. I would go for BW first, you really don't need pottery for a long time (but chopping and whipping is very useful). In the start you want growth and production, so cottages are not necessities. And you definitely need to build 2-3 settlers to grab land before you should even consider building granary. Hence I would research mining-BW-(AH?)-pottery.

 

[cabert]

Subscribed.
Now move on

 

[Whitefire]

Subscribed.
Now move on

I think we need Blake to update the Sistiutil AI. The current version has too long of wait times between turns.

 

[pigswill]

Move warrior se as suggested. Depending on outcome of that (and the famous blue circles) you could cross the river while keeping three known resource tiles.

 

[cabert]

Move warrior se as suggested. Depending on outcome of that (and the famous blue circles) you could cross the river while keeping three known resource tiles.

To follow up on this, I thought about 2 different option (= not settling in place).
1) Moving to the tile were the warrior started saves 1 forest, losing nothing. Depending on what the warrior discovers, it can be a better city site.
The bad thing is you can't work the sugar straight away. And among the unimproved tiles, riverside sugar is a very good one.

2) Settling on a sugar allows you to have 3 food 1 h 1 c in the city center. It may seem wasteful, but sugar is really a weak tile to work. A lot weaker than a cottage. Settling on the thing allows you to get the sugar without wasting worker turns on a plantation and wasting a good working tile on a otherwise useless plantation. + it allows you to work the other sugar straight away. The bad part is losing the rice + hills + not knowing what's on the southern tiles.

Maybe after moving the warrior 1 out of those 2 solutions will look good, but I don't think so.

 

[pigswill]

Is it worth researching pottery, building a worker and then putting cottages down on the two sugar tiles to kickstart your economy?

 

[cabert]

Is it worth researching pottery, building a worker and then putting cottages down on the two sugar tiles to kickstart your economy?

I'd say a farm on the sugar is easier and faster for a more direct impact (4 food = 1 specialist fed). + it won't be a heart breaking decision to plant the sugar over a farm. A whole different issue if you cottage it .

I'd go warrior > worker > settler, while researching mining>BW.
Pottery can wait until the settler is out.
After that, I'd try for the oracle (all those forests!), while building units (including another settler) with the second city.

 

[PublicEnemy]

I'd say a farm on the sugar is easier and faster for a more direct impact (4 food = 1 specialist fed). + it won't be a heart breaking decision to plant the sugar over a farm. A whole different issue if you cottage it .

I'd go warrior > worker > settler, while researching mining>BW.
Pottery can wait until the settler is out.
After that, I'd try for the oracle (all those forests!), while building units (including another settler) with the second city.

Farming the sugar does seem the way to go.
What sort of economy are we going to run? If it's a SE then how early do we go for writing?
Or maybe it's going to be another Great Merchant Economy.

 

[Civman123]

Farming the sugar does seem the way to go.
What sort of economy are we going to run? If it's a SE then how early do we go for writing?
Or maybe it's going to be another Great Merchant Economy.

According to the first post in this thread, Sisiutil will be running a CE or at least a HE.

 

[r_rolo1]

This would be my move:

Move warrior. If nothing special appears (like a plains fur or a two wheat one rice and one fish spot ( it happens sometimes (mostly to the AI ))) , then settle in place and:

Queue: Worker -> Warrior -> settler -> (something) -> whip granary

Techs : Mining -> BW (chop, chop) -> (Animal husbandry, if no cooper and near annoying Civ) -> Pottery

Worker actions : farm riverside sugar (at least one ) and rice

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I would recommend Mining- BW to open up chopping and slavery and copper. I would start with a worker since there is work to be done.

 

[Hero]

Also, if that is jungle to the SW, BW gets us closer to IW for clearing it.

 

[Sisiutil]

So it sounds like the consensus is to move the Warrior and unless he reveals something more spectacular, settle in place. Then research Mining and Bronze Working while building a Worker.

The last one's the only recommendation I'm having trouble with. I don't like building a Worker first. I feel I get more value out of having a 2nd exploratory unit, and the Worker gets built faster with 2 citizens working tiles. So you'll have to forgive me if I go astray from that idea.

I'll probably play the first round tonight an post it as well.

 

[Binky123]

I would settle in place, unless by moving the warrior on the hill you see something worth changing for.

Unfortunately, you lack cows or pigs or some other resource that adds to equivalent of 5 or 6 production to a settle. So you are stuck with 4 'production' on your first settle .

You do have a lot of grassland, which could mean copper or horses or iron if you're lucky . So maybe it might be worth researching AH first just for that. Otherwise... the first three tiles I would work would be: farmed sugar, mined hill, and cottaged sugar. So maybe, AH-->Mining --> bronze --> pottery?

Might need mysticism too depending on when you are founding your second city and how soon it needs a border pop.

Most likely there is going to be jungle south surrounding that sugar, so maybe you can build some extra workers via expansive to help clean up the mess.

Mehmed II is a great builder, and jungle will eventually turn into very good commerce cities.

 

[Tyrant Roger]

I look forward to this ALC with the same relish I have all the others. Thanks for doing this - it is both entertaining and instructive.

Like Sistuil, I also find it difficult to believe that building a worker with only one tile is efficient. So I often start with a warrior. But our intuitions in this may be wrong.

I remember weeks ago reading a thread which did a controlled multi-turn analysis of this question and, unless I am mistaken, it came down decisively in favor of the worker first option. Does anyone know the link to that thread?

 

[Sisiutil]

I look forward to this ALC with the same relish I have all the others. Thanks for doing this - it is both entertaining and instructive.

Like Sistuil, I also find it difficult to believe that building a worker with only one tile is efficient. So I often start with a warrior. But our intuitions in this may be wrong.

I remember weeks ago reading a thread which did a controlled multi-turn analysis of this question and, unless I am mistaken, it came down decisively in favor of the worker first option. Does anyone know the link to that thread?

I'm sure the Worker finishes earlier if built 1st with only 1 tile worked than it would if built after a Warrior and then 2 tiles worked. That's not the issue I have with the Worker first tactic.

The issue for me is not how fast the Worker gets built, it's what I'm missing by not having a 2nd Warrior out exploring. More tiles for more resources and better city sites revealed, a better sense of the map (remember, it's fractal!), more nearby rivals encountered and located, more tribal villages popped, and the chance of stealing a Worker. Not to mention the risk that your only Warrior could get eaten.

One of my exploring Warriors usually makes it all the way to Woodsman II; there's a greater chance of that happening with 2 of them. He later gets upgraded to an Axeman who is a top-notch stack protector.

So in my opinion the Worker can wait and be the 2nd build.

 

[carl corey]

I'd also go for a warrior first for exploration. In my opinion it's just too important to pass. I want to have a better feel of the map and pop those huts. You never know what pops out, do you?

 

[lukep]

I want to have a better feel of the map and pop those huts. You never know what pops out, do you?

With Sisiutil doing the popping ?

anything can happen

 

[r_rolo1]

With Sisiutil doing the popping ?

anything can happen

Sisiutil's luck is soooo good that i'm thinking on hiring him to start my games (fee needs to be discussed ). With his hut luck, anything can happen ( pop AH + BW + Pottery + Masonry )