ALC Game 16: Persia/Cyrus

[slaze]

Agree with the masses as Pasargadae should immediatly switch to a monument and Persepolis to an Immortal. Chop the forest S of corn for Pasargadae after the plains mine. After an Immortal in Persepolis -> worker.

Barracks will help with protective (6.6 is very likely to do damage, 2x + 1 is plenty for any city not on a hill), and it's one of the only builds that you can whip 2 pop into something else with at this point.

You can pull units away from enemy cities by "threatening" others. If Beijing looks too difficult you can kill down a city to one defender or so (not too hard at 0% Culture) so he'll pull units to cover. But strike Beijing as soon as you can.

 

[Baldas]

And with Qin that annoying, smash him. But remember, do only take his capital.

What is the reason to only take his capital when there are other Qin cities closer to Persia?

I am kind of a noob, but hey, we are all learning from the ALC series, right? (even Sisiutil).

 

[Jet]

> I would suggest we try and take out Beijing first.
That might be a good call. You can get there pretty fast. It depends what you see in the other cities. His archers aren't going anywhere, and if they do...

 

[EEE_BOY]

insert immortals immediately to defend your cities and send the unpromoted immortal to explore. striking beijing first is a good idea. if u take it at full force, the rest cities will be much easier and faster. good play!

 

[a0161613]

i like the idea of attacking capital first.

but heres what i would do. Ttake the western city first (decent city placement no overlaps or peak IIRC, raze the one south of that (for relocation purposes at a better date, though this isnt a priority) then nail Beijing ASAP

Go Go Go!!!

 

[TheArchduke]

What is the reason to only take his capital when there are other Qin cities closer to Persia?

I am kind of a noob, but hey, we are all learning from the ALC series, right? (even Sisiutil).

The AI has his biggest production/whipping capabilities in his capital.

Very much alike a player in MP in pre-BC years, once you have taken the capital an enemy is done for. If we attack the outer cities first, you just give the AI a forewarning and she begins to protect its capital.


After the capital is taken, the rest is a mopup. And to avoid economic problems I would suggest raze anything which wasn´t a capital or a holy city. We rebuild those cities anyway, as we are imperialistic.

 

[r_rolo1]

Beiging first! Like TheArchduke said, we need to hit Qin fast and hard, and if he attack any of the other cities first, we'll have 1 or 2 more archers on Beijing ( protective ones on a capitol hill) and we'll need more 4 or 5 Immortals....

About Immortal vs Barracks in capitol: prebuild the Immortal, then Barracks. Like someone said above, if something happens, just finish it. And you'll save some in the maintenance costs.

Change the Horse city queue for a monument ( you'll need the corn more than the marble) and research Pottery ( better ) before Masonry.

My 0.05 € of knowedge.

 

[futurehermit]

Don't raze those close cities. Especially the one with the gold. That one will MAKE money, not cost you money. But do take the capital first.

I would suggest focusing on economy after taking down Qin. Let the other civs come to you (e.g., the Mongols developing that jungle for you). Try and get some immortals to the blitz promotion. Then beeline liberalism with an eye toward military tradition. Once you get cavalry capabilities upgrade your blitz immortals to blitz cavalry. You should then be able to mop up your continent in no time flat.

 

[Kietharr]

I have to agree with the stab the heart people, if you don't take bejing soon he WILL turtle up in there, reguardless of him being attacked at smaller cities or not. Send about 15 immortals straight for it and have a few extras picking off stuff that comes after you. Promote combat rather than withdrawl except on one for sentry. Once he falls, reinforce your territory, grab as much as you can before huyana does. Then head up north into genghis territory after he clears most of the jungle for you. By then, Huyana and izzy should have been whittling eachother down for centuries, but don't hesitate to stir the pot, have huyana declare on izzy then backstab him. the mutual struggle bonus will even out the pulled an ally into war penalty for izzy. By the time this happens, you should have contact with the outside world for tech trades, and it's nicer to have your own little continent .

 

[Scaphism]

Two industrious neighbors! I see many Wonders in your future...
Okay maybe it will only be one Industrious neighbor if you finish Qin off quickly enough.

Builds: I like the suggestion to build an immortal to within 1 turn in the Capital then switch to Barracks unless the immortal is needed.

I like to have a few Sentry units for fogbusting but some people are advocating Blitz Immortals(eventually Cavalry) pretty strongly. I agree it looks great on paper but there is a lot of foggy territory between you and Ghengis so a few sentry promoted units will not be wasted, and one for your stack as well.

After the monument/barracks it looks like nothing but immortals for a while.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

some people are advocating Blitz Immortals(eventually Cavalry) pretty strongly.

I saw that somewhere else (the pregame thread?), but it made me wonder how useful that would be in actual practice. The value of immortals isn't their awesome combat power but rather that they're available early and cheap. You'll take heavy losses, but they're replaceable. Blitz, on the other hand, is useful when you have a unit that's so much more powerful than its enemy that it can survive the first attack with enough health to safely make a second. How often will that really happen with an immortal? Never?

Blitz cavalry, yes. Blitz immortals, I don't get it. Seems like you'd be better off taking Shock (I love Shock for mounted units), Flanking I, Combat IV, or any number of other alternatives.

 

[civ4legs]

I think some build queue micromanagament could go a long way in the second city, especially if combined with chopping out the monument.

I would switch production to an immortal (which will ideally be the 3rd build there), while the workers start chopping for a monument, then switch production to the monument for long enough to grab the chopped lumber, (and produce enough hammers if needed, I forget my numbers off-hand). Build the immortal up to one turn left, then switch to the barracks...

This means an ideal build order of monument, barracks, imm. However, it becomes very easy to switch the order around, based on pressure from barbs, etc.

Regardless of what gets built where, I think you need to get at least one imm out quickly (or as above, able to be built very quickly) to protect the horses from barb pillage

 

[cabert]

I saw that somewhere else (the pregame thread?), but it made me wonder how useful that would be in actual practice. The value of immortals isn't their awesome combat power but rather that they're available early and cheap. You'll take heavy losses, but they're replaceable. Blitz, on the other hand, is useful when you have a unit that's so much more powerful than its enemy that it can survive the first attack with enough health to safely make a second. How often will that really happen with an immortal? Never?

Blitz cavalry, yes. Blitz immortals, I don't get it. Seems like you'd be better off taking Shock (I love Shock for mounted units), Flanking I, Combat IV, or any number of other alternatives.

totally agreed.
If you manage to promote an immortal up to level 5, it's combat 4 you should take.
If you manage to get another promotion, you're luckier than I've ever been, and you should give this guy commando for nasty pillaging (pillaging 2 mines per turn ).

 

[KMadCandy]

"And look at how Qin is crowding me! As you'll see, Genghis is a good ways north, and that's a good thing, since that's the only direction in which I can expand. Qin. Must. DIE. I don't take kindly to being crowded out. Fortunately, both city sites are acceptable, though they both miss out on the flood plains and wine tiles, but a later city could claim those."

north is quite literally the only way you could expand peacefully. qin put his cities cities exactly where i'd settle when i'm using "this land is my land" thinking. with the peaks north of the northern city, after his first border pop in each city, you cannot walk to the west without open borders. and you have no cities that can build galleys . you'd have to march with military troops. that guy has got to go.

"Phew. Good thing there were horses nearby, since there's no copper within reach until after my second war."
and, he has no copper to use against you! you can be a glass-is-three-quarters-full kind of guy for this .

 

[cabert]

"Phew. Good thing there were horses nearby, since there's no copper within reach until after my second war."
and, he has no copper to use against you!
you can be a glass-is-three-quarters-full kind of guy for this .

exactly my thinking!
Also meaning that you should strike before he gets iron working .

 

[KMadCandy]

insert immortals immediately to defend your cities and send the unpromoted immortal to explore. striking beijing first is a good idea. if u take it at full force, the rest cities will be much easier and faster. good play!

we don't have writing, and aren't going to get it soon. given what i said about him totally blocking our western access, we can't explore him at all, unless he learns to write and we get open borders that way. chances are slim i'd say. an early immortal is a good idea, but not for the reason you're suggesting, we can't explore any more than we already have.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

we can't explore any more than we already have.

A Sentry unit would be able to explore a bit more. Whether that actually matters in practice is debatable. Getting a Sentry unit will require some barbarian combat, and exploring that way could take a fair amount of time. It's probably worth just rushing in and dealing with whatever we find, but it's worth considering the Sentry if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[Kev]

Since masonry use is far enough off, I'm with those advocating a different tech direction for the present. Pottery for granaries is nice, and would help for whipping, but in this initial flurry of action and immortal builds would it be too costly to take the time to build/whip/chop the granary to make full use? Plus, the horse city, while having corn, won't have much else to help it recover.

My thought here is to go iron working. Several reasons. First, given the less-than-optimal mix of resources thus far, I'm hoping/betting that we might have some nearby to use. Swords/axes could be a nice addition to help with some stubborn cities to be sure, and spears might be needed if Qin hooks up horses with the next culture boost in the capital. It would also provide a nice tile to use for production overall.

Further, it would show where iron might be in Qin's territory. Not sure how quickly he goes for IW, but it would be nice to know for pillaging reasons. Don't want him to get spears when we're massing immortals.

Edit addition - Since we'll likely have to go through some of the closer Chinese territory/cities to get to the Capital, I would raze the south city. Better placement is likely one tile west anyway.

 

[cabert]

next tech should be writing or pottery. Who needs metal? Go straight to alphabet!

 

[KMadCandy]

Getting a Sentry unit will require some barbarian combat, and exploring that way could take a fair amount of time.

i do love sentry. but i just realized how much we're going to actually have to hunt down barbs if we want to fight them! one border pop at the capital, which happens in a few turns, and we don't even need the southern fogbusters any more. our culture + qin's presence means our entire south can't spawn any barbs. monument and a pop at pasa and then they have no choice except spawning north.

so much for sneak barb attacks, unless they traipse thru qin, who'll have a ton of city-provided fog-busting of his own. immortals are such good fog-busters, and we'll not even to get that! maybe we should reroll *gigglefest*

cabert, you really think so? pottery i can see, writing i'm sitting here wondering if you're joking, then again i'm half asleep. if you're serious i'm sure you have good reasons worth considering.