ALC Game 16 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Cyrus

i thought this series was for promoting variety? Don't do the same tired strategy of making first GG a Medic. Make him offense or settle for a cumulative effect of a constantly improving army. I know, let's be real original and build the great library and lightbulb our way to liberalism... Let's see some new tactics.
Everyone else responded very effectively so I won't belabour the point. However, HtO's post is not without merit, so maybe we should talk about what to do with the second GG, who will probably follow very quickly on the heels of the first. I usually make this guy a military instructor for the additional XPs. Sounds like Dr. EJ is recommending making him a Warlord too, but combinging him with two units instead of 1 and giving them more offensive-minded promotions. 2 units with 4 promotions each, eh? I'm thinking one of those promotions should be Leadership to increase the XPs.

I'll generate the start and send it to Welnic for validation a little later today, so depending on when he gets back to me, I hope to have the game thread started before the weekend is over.
 
You could for instance have two stacks; one consisting of immortals for pillaging and capturing minor cities, the other consisting of axes/swords/cats for the heavy duty assault on major cities; both of these stacks could have a healer warlord.
 
Sounds like Dr. EJ is recommending making him a Warlord too, but combinging him with two units instead of 1 and giving them more offensive-minded promotions. 2 units with 4 promotions each, eh? I'm thinking one of those promotions should be Leadership to increase the XPs.

I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm recommending that. ;) I'd recommend considering it maybe. You do get a slightly bigger bang for your buck with a Charismatic warlord, since you get more promotions for your 20 experience, and it's really the promotions that matter. FWIW, I'm currently playing my own game with Cyrus, and I used the second Great General as a military instructor.

I am recommending that you consider splitting your first Great General across two units. Unless you desperately want that Mobility promotion, there's really not much to be gained from giving all 20 points to one unit. Even if you do want Mobility, you're probably better off letting him earn the extra 7 experience naturally, either before or after you create the warlord unit.

The experience breakpoints for promotions are at 2, 4, 8, 13, 20, and 29. The only way you don't waste experience by giving 20 to a single unit is a) the unit has no experience to start with and you want 5 promotions or b) the unit has 9 experience to start with and you want 6 promotions. I don't think either of those situations is likely in the case of a medic.

Assuming your units have barracks experience, the best values seem to be with 2 or 4 units. Either 2 units with 4 promotions (13 experience) each, or 4 units with 3 promotions (8 experience) each.

If you consider all experience points equal, then you're much better off with a military instructor in any city that you expect will produce more than 10 units over the course of the game. That will get you 2 experience per unit (thus at least 22 total over your at least 11 units). I think that argues for the military instructor after the first.
 
It would be interesting just to see a warlord with leadership, Great Wall and Imperialistic. Could become quite a unit. Imagine three of them!
 
what the heck are people doing talking about wonders? O_o smash face! I would sugest running a mostly specialist economy up til emancipation then cottage over cities as they produce great people(cept your big producers obviously). Great wall is also only in your own borders. How often do you fight in your own borders?? Seriously though this game might very well be the earlies finishing alc game as cyrus have awesome traits and uu for heavy warmongering.
 
Agree with oyzar, the only early wonder he should even consider is the oracle. As for the rest? Those pyramids aren't going to lift so much as a brick to defend themselves against immortals :) . Also, he can get the GW GG bonus from capturing it. I think a pangea would be cool to see for cyrus, and that eliminates the possibility of isolation along with maximizing the benefits of war, ideal with Cyrus's traits.
 
Everyone else responded very effectively so I won't belabour the point. However, HtO's post is not without merit, so maybe we should talk about what to do with the second GG, who will probably follow very quickly on the heels of the first. I usually make this guy a military instructor for the additional XPs. Sounds like Dr. EJ is recommending making him a Warlord too, but combinging him with two units instead of 1 and giving them more offensive-minded promotions. 2 units with 4 promotions each, eh? I'm thinking one of those promotions should be Leadership to increase the XPs.

I'll generate the start and send it to Welnic for validation a little later today, so depending on when he gets back to me, I hope to have the game thread started before the weekend is over.

Well if you're going to upgrade your veteran immortals to knights and cavalry I'd say combine the 2nd GG with two immortals, especially if you don't encounter many spearmen early on and even more so if you end up on a pangea like continent, with your civilization spread far across it. The faster you knock out civs the better.
 
I wouldn't go as far as to say I'm recommending that. ;) I'd recommend considering it maybe. You do get a slightly bigger bang for your buck with a Charismatic warlord, since you get more promotions for your 20 experience, and it's really the promotions that matter. FWIW, I'm currently playing my own game with Cyrus, and I used the second Great General as a military instructor.

I am recommending that you consider splitting your first Great General across two units. Unless you desperately want that Mobility promotion, there's really not much to be gained from giving all 20 points to one unit. Even if you do want Mobility, you're probably better off letting him earn the extra 7 experience naturally, either before or after you create the warlord unit.

The experience breakpoints for promotions are at 2, 4, 8, 13, 20, and 29. The only way you don't waste experience by giving 20 to a single unit is a) the unit has no experience to start with and you want 5 promotions or b) the unit has 9 experience to start with and you want 6 promotions. I don't think either of those situations is likely in the case of a medic.

Assuming your units have barracks experience, the best values seem to be with 2 or 4 units. Either 2 units with 4 promotions (13 experience) each, or 4 units with 3 promotions (8 experience) each.

If you consider all experience points equal, then you're much better off with a military instructor in any city that you expect will produce more than 10 units over the course of the game. That will get you 2 experience per unit (thus at least 22 total over your at least 11 units). I think that argues for the military instructor after the first.

Really? I figure from my calculation that for charismatic that a level 7 unit would only require 28XP because a non-charismatic Unit requires 37XP for level 7 and 25% of 36 is 9 and 37-9=28. I'm not sure how the game does the calculations.

Anyways I Think Sisiutil should get a unit with 8 or 9XP (Whatever's right) and Promote it straight to level 7 (6 Pormotions) for a Medic III/Sentry unit.

Combat + Medic I, II & III + Flanking I + Sentry = 6 Promotions

Another Reason Why I normal use a GG On one unit instead of two is to open up West Point. I Don't know how necessary it is with Cyrus as it's possible to slowly open up West Point through warring, but I personally like to be safe just in case my veteran unit with 19 XP dies at 98% odds. :S.
 
you are correct. 28 xp for Char.

breakdowns are:

Non-Char- 2, 5, 10, 17, 26, 37

Char- 2, 4, 8, 13, 20, 28


For those who don't usually give much respect to Charismatic, look at those differences. Heroic Epic at 8xp, West Point at 20. Mounted Units are even sweeter with Char thanks to 2xp more once you have stables.
 
Really? I figure from my calculation that for charismatic that a level 7 unit would only require 28XP because a non-charismatic Unit requires 37XP for level 7 and 25% of 36 is 9 and 37-9=28. I'm not sure how the game does the calculations.

Yes, you're right. I was doing truncate(XP - .2 * XP), but the actual calculation is XP - truncate(.25 * XP).

Anyways I Think Sisiutil should get a unit with 8 or 9XP (Whatever's right) and Promote it straight to level 7 (6 Pormotions) for a Medic III/Sentry unit.

That's not a bad idea.
 
Start the game already! Five pages of pre-game discussion is enough, let's just see the start and go from there.
 
doing a parallel game (i played Cyrrus in vanilla but never in warlord). it is still BC years, Monty and Alexander already gone, Asoka on the way.

Those immortals are really mean, much worse than i recall in vanilla. Nothing can stop them before longbows if you have enough, they are cheap and promote quickly. but as their lifetime is limited, you really need to go warring fast.

That means there is more than a slight risk of overextending, which in turn makes a strong economy a necessity. So, for once, I would say that an early CE is needed, searching priorities being pottery, Code of Law, then currency.

dont bother with any wonder, you will take it from the dead body or your opponents.

i would say 3 good cities, with barracks, and only that, then churn the horde.
 
Lukep i cant see how a CE will come anywhere near of keeping up your economy to the level that specialists can in the early game. Assuming you run a specialist economy it might be an idea to have the first scientist pop alphabet so you can head straight for col/currency(merchants!!). Once you get there you can farm a couple GM(as in the kublai game though prolly not with the use of the temple obviously) and keep your economy running so you can finish the game asap. What is the likehood of us seeing a conquest victory instead of domination? With a single continent or connected by galleys that might be very doable(feud becoms a higher priority if so since you can vasalage instead of spending time capturing cities).

A near neightbour would obviously be desirable and horses ofc, assuming you get access to those you should be able to easily imortal rush the first one before he can get up copper(if he isnt on a hill you only need like 4-5 imortals, which means that you might want to not bother with barracks for your first rush since it speed up the first attack tremedously given that your not agressive).

Lukep why do you want more than 2 cities? Assuming you dont get barrack and produce 3 + 1 or 3 +2 you can finish off the opponent by the time you would get your barracks constructed!!

This obviously mean that you wont have to worry about any spearmen for the first attack and likely the second opponent too given that your imortals will likely actually have some promotions by then. If there are any wonders that would be in consideration it should be stonhenge since your carismatic, monuments do NOT give extra happines post calendar, just try in worldbuilder for yourself. GW is just too slow and at monarch the opponent will not build enough units to attack before very much later in the game. Wonders are silly when you can smash face with such a good UU.

Also if you plan a medic unit from the start(only picking on weak units) you might easily be able to get it given that you only need 13 xp. A combat 1 imortal is not bad at taking down wounded archers. You could also usse the GG to give xp to 3 or even 4 units(8 xp shouldnt be too hard to come by as thats only a couple wins from out of barracks...).

Seeing as you start with a scout it should be easy to find your first and second enemies..
 
the first opponent can be gone before 1000BC.

by that time, your SE is not set up. going CE just need 3 techs : AH, Wheel, pottery. from there you have only to keep capitals and/or holy cities.

the problem is that you have a big army, and big distances. maintenance costs and supplys kill the research rate fast if you dont focus the core cities on getting enough money. 3 cities is a good equilibrium at monarch level for that
 
What do you mean? Writing is just a step farther from AH and pottery. Plus libraries boost the science output. It's not hard to see both types of economy working out. He won't keep too many cities no matter what economy he chooses since he has no direct economic benefit (financial/organized), but those he does keep are easier IMO to set up for a SE. Just farm and don't worry about pillagers as a farm is back up pretty fast without any significant loss. Lowering the science slider but adding two scientists per city + library can't be worse than cottaging to maintain the slider up, can it?

Plus, you're gonna need Writing anyway to get Alphabet to be able to extort techs for peace.
 
Its slightly more complicated. You can't run a specialist economy before you research writing and build a library (or get CoL for caste either straight research or via Oracle which takes even longer) while youstart a cottage economy as soon as you've researched pottery and got a worker.
If S is looking at a very early rush then he'd been looking at AH and wheel and can start building immortals straight away. He's likely to need a worker to connect horses (and maybe a settler). If S goes for pottery next his worker can start building cottages while his cities concentrate on immortals rather than worker building farms and city building a library.
However that's not to say that SE won't overtake CE once the basics are in place so could be looking at CE>SE>CE (Edit: or even CE>SE>Victory).

Another Edit: Great Scientists are nice to have of course; you also have to consider how you're going to use them. Early academy is nice (and probably works better with cottages than specialists). Lightbulbs are powerful as well but you still need to research/trade/extort the prereqs and its sub-optimal to lightbulb techs costing less than 1000 beakers.
 
Pigswill hit it straight on the point i wanted to make.

If neighbourgs are not too far, this become in fact RE (Razing Economy). So all what count is that the core cities produce enough wealth to support the army when you are moving from one target to the other
 
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