ALC Game 17: Russia/Peter

[EEE_BOY]

i think he means whip

 

[Kev]

Strange, I can't remember ever NOT having a blue circle under my settler at the start. Must be something interesting to the west. Perhaps moving the scout south one and then SW onto the hill will show enough.

My vote would be to make the city a financial center, but realistically that decision can at least wait for the time needed to explore a bit more. It should have enough hammers to build stuff on it's own - and possibly even enable an early wonder (are the Pyramids possible - be great if you have stone around here somewhere).

I cannot recall what Peter's traits are and starting techs offhand, and it's not mentioned at the top. I know he's Philo (Expansive too I think) and obviously he starts with hunting (scout). I'm at work and can't be bothered to look it up, so could someone remind me?

 

[MikeH]

In Warlords Pete is Phi/Exp. Russia starts with hunting and mining.

 

[Fierabras]

Strange, I can't remember ever NOT having a blue circle under my settler at the start.

This is because how Better AI works. Read the FAQ for information about the blue circles.

Oh and by the way, without a proper resource (stone, marble, etc.) you can forget about building wonders. The Better AI actually will know how to win any wonder race.

 

[Welnic]

Will that save work if you dont have the improved AI mods loaded? I'd kind of like to play along, but am not really interested in any mods at all.

You can load the saves, but when you play along you should see different results because of what the AI will be doing. It would actually be interesting to try to follow Sisiutils play as closely as possible and see how different the AI play is.

 

[Kev]

This is because how Better AI works. Read the FAQ for information about the blue circles.

Oh and by the way, without a proper resource (stone, marble, etc.) you can forget about building wonders. The Better AI actually will know how to win any wonder race.

Interesting and thanks for the direction.

With regard to wonders, I'm very interested in seeing the better AI with this. I figured it would be tough - which is why I qualified by stating I hoped there was stone around nearby. I wonder if the AI would chop-rush a wonder like a human.

I further wonder if an AI who consistently beats the human to wonders and settling key areas would force even more builder-types to adopt an early warfare stance. Even if the AI is now better at defending its territory early, all things being equal it would almost be the only choice for humans at higher levels.

Thoughts for a different thread. Looking forward to see how this ALC pans out!

 

[BARBEERIAN]

Scout Move: I'd go 1-SE, than 1-SW to see if there's more flood plains to the right or some seafood by the water.

Settle: If the scout move shows nothing interesting I'd probably settle in place. If the scout does manage to find some seafood (and assuming it's in BFC range for this) I'd maybe only move 1 south and settle the forest (so u have more grassland than coast/ocean) and let a later coastal city build the workboat for it.

Opener:
Research> Bronze Working
Build> 2 workers (chop the 2nd). You might have to sit your worker in a forest doing nothing for a turn but it's no big loss. Plus you can change to slavery waiting for the chop to come in with no time loss in when the 2nd worker will be finished. Also, the chopped hammers get the expansive bonus for building a worker so you get some nice carryover hammers for your next build.

To Farm or to Cottage the Capital:

Personally I'd farm, that's way too much extra food not to run a crapload of specialists in Moscow. Plus you have that little lake which makes a better ring of farms than cottages. For me one big advantage is the farms let you work more mines and slave things early in your capital. (And you want Pyramids, so lots of hammers and pop will be very useful pushing them).

A scientist under rep in the first half of the game is so much better at teching than a rivered Town could hope to be it's not even funny. '6 Beakers' vs. '5 Commerce * Tech Rate'. The scientist makes more research, and he makes GPP for scientists you'll want to use to bulb your way up the Liberalism path while researching your way up to Gunpowder and Nationalism. Of course this is where Peter's PHI trait will absolutely shine. You'll be simultaneously teching down 2 paths converging on Military Tradition at breakneck speed and no non-Phi can get to Cavs as fast as you will.

Also, chances are you'll find a city spot with gems/gold or some calendar stuff and rivers that will make a better commerce town (maybe even a coastal city to push ToA for some big trade route income too). You won't leverage the Commerce bonus of Bureaucracy but that's not really a big deal (especially if like me you prefer Vassalage to go warmongering anyway =P ).

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

Definitely move the scout to scope out the north a little, but I'd hesitate to move the settler at all. Can't ask for anything better than flood plains, especially when you're expansive. It'll also have good production early, which makes the ole' axerush easier....

 

[futurehermit]

I think cottaging the capital is the way to go. 18+/- cottages under bureaucracy will be great.

 

[pigswill]

If S is planning on whipping at the start then it may be better to farm the floodplains and then cottage them once he's got another couple of cities settled.

 

[carl corey]

Yeah, keep the capital spot.

By the way, I feel like beelining Cossacks is no different than beelining for normal cavs. You will rarely face Cavalry anyway, Knights are alright for both and pretty rare too as defenders, and the only thing that they might be really better against are War Elephants, which are very situational. They should have kept them at a higher strength, at least 16 to make a difference. /end rant

 

[Chrispy]

If S is planning on whipping at the start then it may be better to farm the floodplains and then cottage them once he's got another couple of cities settled.

This makes sense to me as well, although cottaging pretty early still makes sense. With 4 floodpains, we're debating 4 specialists with farms or 2 specialists with cottages. One specialist under Representation easily beats one cottage; but does 1 specialist beat 2 cottages? Plus, you can farm the north of the lake to continue putting in specialists or allow mining.

I look forward to seeing what is around, but I don't know if there's anything that we'll see to convince a move is in order. You don't want to settle on floodplain, and you get a freshwater bonus with the lake without using a floodplain. By staying in place, I'm guessing another good city will be available 2 south and 4 east that can use the 2 or 3 floodplains that Moscow won't be able to work.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Sisutil:

Why spend so much time going through this playing on a level that you can consistantly beat?

Wouldn't it be much more fun playing at a level that you can not consistantly beat for its challenge, uncertainty and learning value?

@Monarch, you could make many mistakes that won't even be felt since you can still win easily, you end up not learning much.

But at higher levels you have to micro that much better, war that much better and at the end of each thread every participant might learn more than just watching you crush the poor AIs.

Anyway, just curious...

 

[Hero]

Sisutil:

Why spend so much time going through this playing on a level that you can consistantly beat?

Wouldn't it be much more fun playing at a level that you can not consistantly beat for its challenge, uncertainty and learning value?

@Monarch, you could make many mistakes that won't even be felt since you can still win easily, you end up not learning much.

But at higher levels you have to micro that much better, war that much better and at the end of each thread every participant might learn more than just watching you crush the poor AIs.

Anyway, just curious...

If this question really needs to be asked for the millionth time, perhaps the ALC Bullpen thread would be a better place to ask it.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Definitely want to settle in place. That start gives you the option of cottaging up to 18 tiles... ideal for a capital under either a CE or an SE. Plus I'd be surprised if there wasn't a strategic resource in your BFC.

I'm tempted to move the scout two tiles to the SE. I'm not a fan of moving scouts one tile through difficult terrain, if I can help it. Without knowing the lay of the land to the East, I'd prefer to keep him mobile.

As for the initial research path, I would go for animal husbandry first. The cows are an excellent choice for your first improved tile, and I prefer chariots over axemen for barb control. Bronze working should be next, for the whip and chopping. The Wheel should follow bronze working, and finally pottery.

 

[budweiser]

I downloaded the save and loaded it into Warlords. I started it and settled in place first thing before moving the scout. Then I noticed it was epic speed. Ugh!

Oh well, I'll try it anyway.

 

[InFlux5]

One thing to keep in mind is that it's easy to transition from farms to cottages. Bee-line to Writing, get a Granary up, farm the capital until the first scientist. Then continue to farm GP or switch to cottages. Use GS on whatever is most appropriate.

 

[Sisiutil]

By the way, don't forget to edit the bullpen thread and your sig, S.

Done--thanks for the reminder.

To Farm or to Cottage the Capital:

Personally I'd farm, that's way too much extra food not to run a crapload of specialists in Moscow. Plus you have that little lake which makes a better ring of farms than cottages. For me one big advantage is the farms let you work more mines and slave things early in your capital. (And you want Pyramids, so lots of hammers and pop will be very useful pushing them).

A scientist under rep in the first half of the game is so much better at teching than a rivered Town could hope to be it's not even funny. '6 Beakers' vs. '5 Commerce * Tech Rate'. The scientist makes more research, and he makes GPP for scientists you'll want to use to bulb your way up the Liberalism path while researching your way up to Gunpowder and Nationalism. Of course this is where Peter's PHI trait will absolutely shine. You'll be simultaneously teching down 2 paths converging on Military Tradition at breakneck speed and no non-Phi can get to Cavs as fast as you will.

Also, chances are you'll find a city spot with gems/gold or some calendar stuff and rivers that will make a better commerce town (maybe even a coastal city to push ToA for some big trade route income too). You won't leverage the Commerce bonus of Bureaucracy but that's not really a big deal (especially if like me you prefer Vassalage to go warmongering anyway =P ).

Remember in the last game we moved the capital, and I think that can be a good strategy with the SE. The initial capital site tends to be good for either farms or cottages, whereas, like you say, a later site may show up that's ideal for commerce (like in the Cyrus game, where that barb city had several riverside grassland tiles, gems, and dye). You can time things so that by the time such a city is up to a decent size and you're about to research Civil Service, you can move the capital there to take full advantage of the Bureaucracy civic.

As for the current site, there's also the option to mix farming and cottages on both the grasslands and floodplains to get the best of both worlds. I often find in the early game that I just can't whip enough to keep below the happiness cap. So I often have to juggle tile assignments to throttle/accelerate growth. Having several tiles improved in different ways, with different levels of food, allows me the flexibility to grow or stagnate as needed.

If this question really needs to be asked for the millionth time, perhaps the ALC Bullpen thread would be a better place to ask it.

I agree. It's irrelevant now that the game has started, but certainly a good topic for the ALC Bullpen thread (link in my sig). Besides, this game is played against the BetterAI, which is very similar to moving up a level, trust me.

I'll move the Scout onto the NE hill and post the results tonight. I'm very much inclined to accept the starting position, but I'll move the Scout anyway. As I said, few things short of a gold mine would convince me to move at this point.

 

[Porphyrius]

I'm tempted to move the scout two tiles to the SE. I'm not a fan of moving scouts one tile through difficult terrain, if I can help it. Without knowing the lay of the land to the East, I'd prefer to keep him mobile.

"Difficult terain"=Worried for animals? On the very first turn??? Thats never happened to me and i fancy raging barbs quite often.

 

[swordmaster29]

"Difficult terain"=Worried for animals? On the very first turn??? Thats never happened to me and i fancy raging barbs quite often.

I think he means through a square that takes 2 movement points. Difficult == rough?

I'm just getting my monarch chops up to snuff, but I do like the beginning layout very much. I think I might shadow this one (but without the betterAI mod thanks to my mac).

Edit: just realized this is only my second post. I've read through all of the ALC, EMC, IMC, and other threads and I now feel like I'm an old friend. Sorry about that.