ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[cabert]

I too vote for dual fish + iron city
I don't have BtS yet, so obviously no experience for it, but I don't think JC will be smart enough to go outculturing you for the iron.
I don't vote for switching to mysticism now though. Just start a workboat in this city while it grows. If you time it right, you could get myst when this city grows to size 2 and just whip for the monument.

 

[CivSetä]

It kind of sucks that your little island can only realistically sustain about 12-14 good cities.

That is definitely enough. How many cities you would like to have? I think that even 2-3 good + 3-4 mediocre cities is enough for monarch space victory. IMHO this island contains very good land!

 

[Photi]

thanks for the alc's sistuili...

I'd get that warrior moving to rendezvous with the settler just in case any animals show up.

don't worry about the numbers trying to hook up the iron 4 whole turns in advance, go with the clearly superior 2-fish 4 plains hills naval production city, remember you have all that seafood to guard even after you crush a praet-less rome. JC's demise need not be so imminent for it to be certain.

 

[Killroyan]

Come on guys 1N2W on the plains hill is the place to be:
1. Denies Rome the iron
2. Is a jumpboard to his capital
3. Allows you to build swordsmen and axemen. Who cares if he has some axemen himself, CR axemen are better.
4. The forest on the hill is perfect for chopping the monument.
5. The extra producion of the hill makes it even stronger.

Now Rome propably has already researched bronze working and will make haste for the bronze spot so there is a very little chance to get that spot. Since you have gold it is propably save to say that he doesn't know yet where the iron is, so it is a lot saver. Get the city up, pillage his copper and he will just have archers and maybe 1 or 2 axes. If you are attacking with swordsmen/axemen then you should normally win this easily.

Wheel -> mysticism -> animal husbandry imho.

 

[YaKidK]

Have done some ALC reading and (a lot of) ALC learning in the past!

First, I would like to hear the rational behind whipping the settler. Yes, it got the settler out 4 turns sooner, but you lost the gold for 3-4 turns, that being 21-28 sciences and 3-12 hammers. I would think this would be the one situation, where one shouldnt whip. Instead, the worker could have made another chop instead of mining the grassland hill. Also you could have save 1 turn by switching to Slavery later on.

In regards to Iron and the soon to be Roman war: go for the Double Fish site. Since Rome havent switched to Slavery yet, JC probably dont have BW yet, sp you have some 10+ head start on the iron. Move the Warrior to the plain hill 2NW to get more information.

For the war, I would build one or two Axeman asap, go to the copper, pillage it so JC will have a minimum of Axemen.

Is the computer able to make city decision on ressources it does not know yet? E.i. does the AI know that the copper/iron is there, even if its does not have the knowdlege of BW/IW?

Just my 2€

 

[CivSetä]

Wheel -> mysticism -> animal husbandry imho.

That seems obvious, but I think that Sis should go for mysticism first. Roads have little use before border pop after all. And the iron can be mined when wheel is still on progress. So mysticism first, and build another worker to help, maybe after workboat.

So my suggestion is techwise:
mysticism-wheel-ah-pottery-writing

and build order in Moscow after settler:
workboat (Moscow) - workboat (explore) - workboat (St. Petesburg) - worker - barracks - swords
Maybe one more workboat if there is plenty of time.


St. Petersburg:
barracks until mysticism - obelisk (chop) - barracks - swords


This is really nice start, please handle it with care!

 

[cabert]

That seems obvious, but I think that Sis should go for mysticism first. Roads have little use before border pop after all. And the iron can be mined when wheel is still on progress.

good point
irrelevent though, since the wheel is only a few turns away, and anyway less than the 15 turns it takes for the monument to give you the border pop.
Meaning that it's pretty obvious that the worker will only be able to chop for some time if he doesn't go for the wheel before myst.

EDIT : I'm not saying that wheel before myst is better because of this.

Let's examine both options:
1)Myst>wheel
St Petersburg will be able to start on the monument sooner, helped by chopping from the worker who has nothing else to do anyway. The worker can even prechop the monument while waiting for mysticism to come in.
The worker will be able to mine a hill after his chopping, which is certainly useful in preparation for a later rush. He can also chop barracks for StPete.

2)wheel>myst
The worker will be able to connect the gold for happiness and to build a road between both cities while waiting for myst. St Pete will be size 2 in time to whip a monument as soon as myst comes in (well, a warrior or a workboat maybe could be whipped on the turn before the tech comes in and the overflow would build it in the first turn). The iron could be roaded while waiting for the border pop.

To me, it all comes down to one less forest chopped if you go for the wheel first and 5/6 turns earlier iron connection if you go for myst first.

 

[CivSetä]

good point
irrelevent though, since the wheel is only a few turns away, and anyway less than the 15 turns it takes for the monument to give you the border pop.
Meaning that it's pretty obvious that the worker will only be able to chop for some time if he doesn't go for the wheel before myst.
---
To me, it all comes down to one less forest chopped if you go for the wheel first and 5/6 turns earlier iron connection if you go for myst first.

I think that even those 5 turns can make a difference. And prechopping is exactly what is needed in this situation. In second city it is best to start building mine asap in 1E forested hill. Then prechop, maybe second worker should be chopped too in Moscow to take advantage of expansive trait?

 

[cabert]

I think that even those 5 turns can make a difference. And prechopping is exactly what is needed in this situation. In second city it is best to start building mine asap in 1E forested hill. Then prechop, maybe second worker should be chopped too in Moscow to take advantage of expansive trait?

also remember that the iron would only be connected to St pete for a while (going for sailing before agri, pottery, writing seems a bit too much for me)...
Good production city when it has grown, which requires happiness resources (hint : connecting the gold ), but not as good as 2 production cities .

 

[Fetch]

This is probably a dumb idea since I haven't sen anyone mention it, but what about SE of the iron-- 2 W of Moscow's gold. This way, as soon as you get the iron mined, you've got a flow of it to Moscow via the cultural borders. All this city will be used for is to mine the iron and build units to kill Caesar. Once that's done, put a coastal fishing village above the iron and REX. I think this will get you into war mode a few turns sooner, but food may be a problem for the Iron city-- never been good at calculating food.

 

[Chrispy]

I agree with the 2W 1N spot. Putting the city 1NW wastes both fish in the long run for a short-term gain of a few turns. And if Julius gets to the copper in the interim, start building axes as well as swords for the rush. Southeast of the iron is a dead spot on the island that would just be a drain in the long run.

But which to research first, Wheel or Mysticism? If you go wheel first, the worker (or workers, you could use another for speed) can connect the 2 cities while researching Mysticism. However, if you go Mysticism first, you can whip out the monument after building a work boat and start mining as you finish Wheel.

I think Mysticism first is better, but I can see the benefit to both methods.

 

[futurehermit]

Probably the most persuasive argument in ALC history. As soon as I read it I knew we were going 1NW.

thanks

I also vote for the 2-fish city. Settling on the plains hill means it won't take that long to get a border pop. And with swords you won't have any problems taking out Rome. He won't have praets, he probably won't have axes, so you'll be facing archers. No problem...

EDIT: Once you take out Rome you should be able to settle your land mass + islands and win space comfortably. I would go with a hybrid as there are some nice looking commerce cities to your south. Have 2 strong cities (probably both capitals) cranking out great people and the rest can go to commerce mostly. You could have 2 (HE + future IW) cities pumping units to keep your power up and 1 city pumping a navy to deter/prevent being attacked. But the rest could be commerce cities methinks. I would also suggest a superconductors (new tech for labs) beeline after democracy and communism. It is important imo to get the SoL (duh) and Kremlin. Kremlin was bypassable in Warlords, but the espionage bonuses it gives, including 2 additional spy specialist slots is too good now to pass up. Oh yeah, and that reminds me that you should also dedicate 1 high-food city to be your scotland yard city where you put the kremlin (rush buy it if low production), all the espionage buildings, scotland yard, and settled great spies. This city alone can fuel all of your espionage efforts later in the game.

 

[phurph]

Here's an idea:

Sacrifice the Settler and settle on the iron! Make it a temporary city. When you have all the units you need, declare war on JC, abandon the city and let him take it. Then come back and raze it (or whip it to one pop when it looks like he'll take it and it'll auto-raze when he takes it...I think)

Correct me if I'm wrong but you get 2H for settling on the iron, plus you'll be able to work a plains mine with no growth. That's reasonable hammers. No monument, no mine (for iron) needed. And you can start building units in St. P. immediately (after barracks). Plus you have two forests to chop (to the south & east) to hurry barracks/units which won't be in the fat cross of the later city anyway (which will pickup the two fish).

The catch is you have to wait til JC moves on St. Pete before you finish him. If he doesn't, you're stuck with a dumpy city.

At first, I thought this sounded too gamey, but it's really not. Ever read Romance of the Three Kingdoms? I think this technique was used in some battle. Make the city flammmable, abandon the city, let the enemy inside the gates, then light everything on fire.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Yeah, well, You can't abandon Your city... Nice idea, but it would be a waste of several resources.

@futurehermit
Peter is philosophical. I strooongly recommend Calendar and Mausoleum of Mausollos. It's insane what one can do while having 48+ turns of Golden age in a trot

 

[cabert]

It would be nice to see a total SE space victory.
Do you think you can do it?

 

[Porphyrius]

good point
irrelevent though, since the wheel is only a few turns away, and anyway less than the 15 turns it takes for the monument to give you the border pop.
Meaning that it's pretty obvious that the worker will only be able to chop for some time if he doesn't go for the wheel before myst.

EDIT : I'm not saying that wheel before myst is better because of this.

Let's examine both options:
1)Myst>wheel
St Petersburg will be able to start on the monument sooner, helped by chopping from the worker who has nothing else to do anyway. The worker can even prechop the monument while waiting for mysticism to come in.
The worker will be able to mine a hill after his chopping, which is certainly useful in preparation for a later rush. He can also chop barracks for StPete.

2)wheel>myst
The worker will be able to connect the gold for happiness and to build a road between both cities while waiting for myst. St Pete will be size 2 in time to whip a monument as soon as myst comes in (well, a warrior or a workboat maybe could be whipped on the turn before the tech comes in and the overflow would build it in the first turn). The iron could be roaded while waiting for the border pop.

To me, it all comes down to one less forest chopped if you go for the wheel first and 5/6 turns earlier iron connection if you go for myst first.

5/6 turns are a big deal this early. Every game is a bit of a time race, there never is "enough" time. The earlier you meet your goals, the earlier you reap the rewards gaining further advantage. In our case early iron hooking means no opposing axes. Happyness ASAP is also far from needed.

Those of you contemplating tech research order realize it will take only about 7 turns for each of mysticism/wheel. Timing is not perfect but the worker can prechop a forest for the monument and prebuilt the road connecting the iron.

also remember that the iron would only be connected to St pete for a while (going for sailing before agri, pottery, writing seems a bit too much for me)...
Good production city when it has grown, which requires happiness resources (hint : connecting the gold ), but not as good as 2 production cities .

As for prioritizing sailing, would you rather have a farm in Moscow, a granary or a hooked iron and a lighthouse and an early chance at galleys. Not to mention that between boats, barracks, swords and later a second worker there is no gap for growth improvments. All 3 initial cities are all coastal depending on sea food.
AH is inapropriate at any rate, imean what do we need it for.

A small remark concerning barracks. The CRI promotion is needed to get swords over unromoted archers in 40% cultural defence city or CG1 promoted in a 20% one. But St Pet should rush out at least a couple, send one to the hill N of copper and attack an escorted settler heading towards the copper. If the come out late they should pillage copper immidiently and fortify there. Not allowing axes will make things much easier even if the price is spamming archers, wall in Rome. Besides if Julius 2nd city is offed he ll be very crippled expansion wise may try another crazy settler.



I am quite fond of weak token cities to just hook metal myself. But, when you get a respectable site they are of no use.

PS: Golden ages may be a good idea towards the very end, what with lbulbing weakened in BTS and all. I am still thinking of pyramids mostly though.

 

[cabert]

Porphyrius, there is no race here.
I don't see how JC could beat S without iron.
Thus, I think preparing later developpement is better than sacrificing everything for an earlier rush.

Then again it's not my game, and I don't even have BtS yet, so what do I know?

 

[Scaphism]

More thoughts: A second worker is always useful, but I'm not sure if it's necessary right now.
Getting a workboat for clams is good, and having one ready for St. Pete's (after border pop) is good as well, but getting one out to explore now is a waste. You've explored the majority of your surroundings. More exploration that costs additional means those aren't going to your military, where they are needed. i.e. further exploration is a luxury at the moment, military is a necessity.

As for the ongoing argument about NW of Iron or 1N2W, both require a border pop to work any fish. You will want to work the fish so the city can grow while building military and for regrowth after whipping. So either way you need a monument for a border pop. I think your city will be more productive in the short term as well as long term if it's build 1N2W on the plains hill. It gets more hammers initially, it's more defensible (not likely to matter, but still a point in its favor), and to really get cranking it needs seafood. Getting Iron hooked up to your capital is going to take 20+ turns regardless of whether you need the border pop to work the Iron mine. The road from Moscow is going to take a while to be built. In the meantime Moscow can keep making necessary builds - workboats, barracks, another worker maybe, and warriors to fogbust and garrison St. Pete's when the troops march to war. All of those builds will contribute to the war effort.

 

[Gr8scott]

My vote:

1N / 2W double fish city
Myst ==> Wheel

be ready to make a DoW if a Roman worker appears on copper.

goodluck!

 

[xanadux]

OK, I've been looking at the potential iron city sites, and I think I found a truly good one you all overlooked. 1W, 2S of iron on the plains hill.

This will be a nice production city both in the short and long run. In the short run, is right next to a floodplain, so will be able to work 3F tile immediately. Irrigate that floodplain, and at size 3, this city will be able to work a mined plain, mined iron plain, plus the extra hammer from being settled on a plains hill. Super fast 12 hammer city.

Other advantages:
Leaves room for the 2 fish city to the North (currently proposed site)

Will be able to use 2 more floodplains after Rome is captured. Rome has 4 seafood tiles plus those 5 floodplains ... it's just not going to need that much food for a very very long time, if ever.

Take a look ... it's definitely the right place. It will be a very good quick production city, and a decent city long term. Much better than just accepting a crap site.