ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[manu-fan]

Have done some ALC reading and (a lot of) ALC learning in the past!

First, I would like to hear the rational behind whipping the settler. Yes, it got the settler out 4 turns sooner, but you lost the gold for 3-4 turns, that being 21-28 sciences and 3-12 hammers. I would think this would be the one situation, where one shouldnt whip. Instead, the worker could have made another chop instead of mining the grassland hill. Also you could have save 1 turn by switching to Slavery later on.

You know. I thought exactly the same thing. I've also noted that Sisutil has been a little Whip happy in the past.

I think the answer is probably something like sacrificing current research for 4 more turns of hammer production and research in the new city. I would like to hear ana analysis of 4 turn early 2nd city vs pop in capital.

Cheers.

 

[popejubal]

You know. I thought exactly the same thing. I've also noted that Sisutil has been a little Whip happy in the past.

I think the answer is probably something like sacrificing current research for 4 more turns of hammer production and research in the new city. I would like to hear ana analysis of 4 turn early 2nd city vs pop in capital.

Cheers.

One other very significant thing to look at for whipping settlers is when you get your settler.

Have you ever been beaten to a city site by an AI who got there just 1-2 turns ahead of you? If you had whipped that settler to shave 4 turns off the production time, then you would have gotten there 1-2 turns ahead of the AI and you get your choice of city instead of your neighbor.

Those few turns won't always make a difference, but you really don't know when they will and when they won't, so whipping a settler is usually the safe bet.

Also, it's more hammer-efficient to whip than to not whip if your population is relatively low (8-ish or less). It takes far fewer than 30 food to grow to the next size, but you get 30 hammers (plus multipliers like Org Religion, Organized for Courthouse, etc) for each population point sacrificed. Considering that you have several excellent food sources, you'll get that population back very quickly (very VERY quickly in this case).

Whipping 2-3 population at a time is especially efficient since you get the "extra" production that comes from whipping's efficiency of food vs. hammers and you only suffer 1 for the single whip instead of the 2-3 that would come from 2-3 individual whips of 1 population each.

 

[xanadux]

Might have missed it, post being at end of last page ... but check out the possibilities of 1w, 2s of iron for irontown.

 

[sigmakan]

I fail to see how that site is better than the 2fish 1iron site.

With the Maoi Statues that site will easily have over 40 hammers base production. I have a feeling a navy will be key in this game, so having a mega-navy city would be ideal

 

[Scaphism]

Not that the southern site is bad, but it requires a border pop to work the iron as well. That puts it in the same boat, so to speak, as the 2 fish city.
And if you build the southern site, yes it still leaves the 2 fish and some hills available for a city up there, but only one of the two can have the iron, and it's more likely the older city gets more improvements.
Considering how important Russia's navy is likely to be this game, I'd say a productive coastal city (not the capital) would be very valuable, and they both get you to iron (the crucial early resource we're aiming for) at the same speed.

 

[Elrohir]

I vote for the 1N, 2W of the Iron for the city site. Long term, it's better, and if you build the Maoi statues there it would be a major production city - which will almost certainly be important, because once you take out Caeser, you'll have the island to yourself, which means you'll need ships to explore and defend your little continent.

 

[facistal]

Okay, so I have gone ahead and done some math (or turn counting I guess) I have counted out these two scenarios.

1) Iron city goes 2W 1N on th plains hill:

Switch to myst - if you make sure to switch back to the gold when Moscow grows to 2 you should be able to just set the worker to chop that forest and (you will have to switch production to a monument when it becomes available 2 turn before chop) have the monument up in 11 turns.

Once the work boat is completed in Moscow switch to a worker and whip it when possible. The convegering workers should have the road setup and every thing connected 29 turns from where you are now.

2) Settle 1NW of the Iron:

Stick with the wheel - Mine the iron immediatly - again remember to swtich Moscow back to the gold when it grows, and again whip a worker after the work boat is done . You can have iron connected in 20 turns


Also, in example 1 you have a border pop and a barracks (built for a few turn before and after monument) but you lose a forest.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure it all adds up. So nine turns for a way better city, I think it's obvious you should go for the plains hill. I think the advantage of being able to work more than two tiles in the new city you should see that 9 turns returned to you in how fast you can actually build the army.

 

[manu-fan]

On the subject of the next city. 1N 2 W sounds good to me also. So, many people have suggested it, Sisutil. Onward!!

Cheers.

 

[LlamaCat]

Remembering this is a BTS game ... I would definitely grab that iron before Caesar because I think the AI now does a better job picking city sites and I've seen my borders being pressed in early games, especially around key resources.

Also, the AI tech pace is much slower in BTS so whipping that settler vs. working the gold for research was the way to go.

One other thought: since you are basically isolated on this island with Caesar, after he is dead I would not focus on espionage much at all until after Optics/Astronomy and you determine your strongest opponent. Then focus only on passive espionage points to see his cities. More active spying is not really worth the trade-off in tech pace on these kind of starts, I've discovered so far. Courthouses will do the trick for the most part.

Getting ahead of myself for this game but anyway...

 

[Sisiutil]

Too many posts to quote them all. Thanks everyone for your contributions! As someone above said and I agree, the game is in many ways secondary to the discussion around it. That was the whole reason I started the ALCs in the first place--not to have everyone tell me how entertaining my update posts are (but thank you to those who have complimented me for them nonetheless), but to engender strategy debates using a specific game as an example. I started these because I wanted to learn how to play this game I love so much better, and it's paid off in spades, and not just for me, which is very gratifying.

Anyway. Here are a few thoughts about everything above:

• Sounds like Mysticism before the Wheel and the plains hill 2 fish/iron site is the way to go.
• Let's not assume I'm isolated. In fact, if the BtS AI is smarter about using its navy, that's a very dangerous assumption to make. This is not a continents map, it's Big & Small--the first time I've tried that map type, so I don't know what to expect. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised to find I'm connected to other civs via an island chain. If I am, Optics is potentially a lower priority.
• Sailing and Metal Casting, however, are going to be priorities in order to protect all that seafood from barb galleys and unfriendly AI civs.
• I agree that exploration is on the back burner for now, but we can't forget about it. I'll want to load my Scout onto a Galley and see what and who else is in the neighbourhood.
• Ditto for espionage. Not a priority until I meet someone other than JC.
• For those of you suggesting the wilder ideas like settling on top of the iron and letting Caesar raze it, don't get discouraged, keep them coming. That's what this thread is for. You never know if one of those crazy ideas is going to turn out to make more sense than a conventional one. Even if it doesn't, we all learn from discussing it.

I'll try to play and post the next round tonight.

 

[Validator]

I'll try to play and post the next round tonight.

How long a round do you intend to play? I ask because almost all of the discussion has been about where to found the second city and how to get the iron hooked up. That's not going to take long.

There hasn't been much discussion about what to research after Myst and Wheel. I would recommend Pottery to get the cheap granaries online to help with growth and whipping. After that maybe sailing.

What sort of build order are you looking for in Moscow? After you finish the workboat I think a second worker would be in order, although you might want to build a warrior to garrison Moscow first. You can whip the worker to get the bonus from Expansive.

I would be looking to build granaries as soon as Pottery is done. And of course a barracks. I doubt you can get that all done before the iron gets hooked up, but you should be able to get close.

 

[Mesousa]

I'm worried we might get too far off the intention again, i.e. not exactly rushing the rush. With IW instead of AH and the in the long run better city site. But for all we know horses might have been too far away anyway, let's hope for the best.

This is not a continents map, it's Big & Small--the first time I've tried that map type, so I don't know what to expect. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised to find I'm connected to other civs via an island chain. If I am, Optics is potentially a lower priority.

For what it's worth, for me the Big in Big & Small usually is a Pangea or at least continents that are very close together so you don't need Optics to reach the next one.

When you make a custom game, you can select whether you want the islands mixed in or in their own region separate from the continents, does anyone know what the game does when you choose B&S through Play Now?

 

[TRJS]

I don't see that we are losing sight at all. The idea is to get the iron hooked up in the most economical way so as to maximise our ability to produce sufficient swordsman to expediate the demise of rome.

Or in other words.

Get the shiny stuff for shiny swords to smash the nearest neighbour. Very efficient.

 

[slaze]

How long a round do you intend to play? I ask because almost all of the discussion has been about where to found the second city and how to get the iron hooked up. That's not going to take long.

There hasn't been much discussion about what to research after Myst and Wheel. I would recommend Pottery to get the cheap granaries online to help with growth and whipping. After that maybe sailing.

What sort of build order are you looking for in Moscow? After you finish the workboat I think a second worker would be in order, although you might want to build a warrior to garrison Moscow first. You can whip the worker to get the bonus from Expansive.

I would be looking to build granaries as soon as Pottery is done. And of course a barracks. I doubt you can get that all done before the iron gets hooked up, but you should be able to get close.

You're going to need agriculture at some point. The seafood cities dont need it, but the 2nd gold and just about everything else does. Why not use the 2nd prereq bonus for a more efficient run through the tech tree. I'd suggest something not far from

Myst >the Wheel >agriculture >pottery >AH >writing

Many are calling for sailing and I agree, but due to the abundance of seafood and swordsman that need to be built, we can push back the completion of any lighthouses we might need. Some people are pointing out that it connects cities but the wheel can handle that, and we need the roads anyway to help with caesar. So, In reference to the above techs, I wouldn't insert Sailing any earlier than after pottery.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Sailing might be needed for fish defence it depends if JC sneaks a galley out to go pillaging. Sisi is going to be dependant upon his seafood. I'd try and watch Rome and see if any galleys get built.

I still think writing and a quick library would help overall tech progress (probably after building a few shock troops for a rush), with the gold and food surplus. I thought SE was the plan... that needs specialists! I'd do either/or animal husbandry/pottery. Pottery probably more useful for granaries if you get the iron unless you really want some chariots for barb defence.

 

[EEE_BOY]

I too vote for dual fish + iron city
I don't have BtS yet, so obviously no experience for it, but I don't think JC will be smart enough to go outculturing you for the iron.
I don't vote for switching to mysticism now though. Just start a workboat in this city while it grows. If you time it right, you could get myst when this city grows to size 2 and just whip for the monument.

I don't know how u can do that.
no border pop--no fish--no food--no whip.

2W 1N.

it is the city i want to settle, if this game is on immortal, i wouldn't risk it, i would settle 1SE of the iron instead. on mornarchy we have more flexibility...

 

[EEE_BOY]

This is probably a dumb idea since I haven't sen anyone mention it, but what about SE of the iron-- 2 W of Moscow's gold. This way, as soon as you get the iron mined, you've got a flow of it to Moscow via the cultural borders. All this city will be used for is to mine the iron and build units to kill Caesar. Once that's done, put a coastal fishing village above the iron and REX. I think this will get you into war mode a few turns sooner, but food may be a problem for the Iron city-- never been good at calculating food.

finally someone support me.


some one mentioned to settle on iron, that ruin the 2-fish city later, and 1SE serve the same purpose. but this site looks less popular.

if going for 1N 2W, please add another worker to speed roading and mining. build and chop monument in four turns. moscow build fishing boat to scout north (i guess it is dead end, but the southern seems to have some civs.), and turn around hook fish as soon as the border pop. another settler may call to grab any sites near rome to block him.

myst->wheel->agri->AH->writing
MC is too expensive if not from oracle.

 

[slaze]

I still think writing and a quick library would help overall tech progress

There's no need to "rush" to get the libraries, we got troops to build. Remember the first try with Peter? we rushed to get writing, then had no use for it. Long term it's better to set up the SE (Agri, AH), then to force it out.

In fact, after Mysticism and the Wheel, you're not scrambling to get any more immediate techs. I'd tell ya to jack up espionage if you weren't 9 points away from seeing Julius' research.

 

[Validator]

You're going to need agriculture at some point. The seafood cities dont need it, but the 2nd gold and just about everything else does. Why not use the 2nd prereq bonus for a more efficient run through the tech tree. I'd suggest something not far from

Myst >the Wheel >agriculture >pottery >AH >writing

Many are calling for sailing and I agree, but due to the abundance of seafood and swordsman that need to be built, we can push back the completion of any lighthouses we might need. Some people are pointing out that it connects cities but the wheel can handle that, and we need the roads anyway to help with caesar. So, In reference to the above techs, I wouldn't insert Sailing any earlier than after pottery.

Agr. is obviously going to be needed at some point. The key to early tech order is choosing the techs that fill an immediate need. Moscow's corn doesn't need to be worked for a while, but if Sisiutil plans to do any whipping to support his military buildup it will definitely be helpful to have a granary, especially when Expansive makes granaries cheap.

After Pottery I'm not sure that there are any techs that provide an immediate benefit. Sailing would provide a secondary connection between cities, but its real benefit is access to lighthouse and galleys. Since they aren't going to be built for a while it's not a great priority, but then again I don't see any tech that's higher priority.

It is kind of weird that Agr and AH aren't really high priorities in this game, but that does happen sometimes. One of the reasons each game requires its own strategy.

 

[Sisiutil]

How long a round do you intend to play? I ask because almost all of the discussion has been about where to found the second city and how to get the iron hooked up. That's not going to take long.

Validator, I know you've been following the ALC threads long enough to know this, but just for the sake of everyone else: I tend to play until either a major goal we've agreed upon has been achieved or until I reach a major decision point (which may or may not have anything to do with reaching said goal).

I should imagine that the next round (I may not get to it tonight, real life intervening again) will at least last until I'm getting ready to attack Caesar. If it looks easy enough, I may go through with taking him out; if it looks more complicated, I'll probably post here so we can discuss strategy.