ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[BARBEERIAN]

Errrrr, why copper?

There are 2 reasons to get iron over copper:
Iron allows you to build more units
Romes UU needs iron(and thats the only source)

I think we have a little more time then everyone thinks to rush rome. He doesnt have any metal in his city, I doubt he has a settler by now, and his production in his main city doesnt look that great. The worst we might see is 2-3 axes. just my opinion.

2-3 axes is death to a sword/axe rush pre-catapults. You can deny the Iron more easily by snagging the copper (and Julius will probably get more worker techs before nabbing Iron so you'll have a lead). Also, that desert hill with a road and Sisiutil's culture on it (the hill 1-N of the copper) will be A) a 'spy on Rome' tile, and B) a '1-move to his city gates' tile. The 'spy on Rome' tile aspect is the most critical part for me though. You can see exactly when he pops his settler and splits his garrison of archers, and declare war precisely when Rome is at it's weakest point defensively. Early precision attacks like that fare much better than later brute force vs. Axes/archers in my opinion.

Also, axes are cheaper than swords so Siz' can slave more of them faster than swords. Ya they aren't as good as swords vs. archers pound for pound but you'll have a few more and they'll be enough to take a flatland capital with 40% culture. Personally I think that getting a rush on his doorstep faster will deny him working/linking the iron (with the archer/warrior I recommend keeping on the iron while building up the axe force).

Not to mention you can work the gold and wheat once the border pops to crank axes out as close as possible to Rome.

 

[Porphyrius]

Errrrr, why copper?

There are 2 reasons to get iron over copper:
Iron allows you to build more units
Romes UU needs iron(and thats the only source)

I think we have a little more time then everyone thinks to rush rome. He doesnt have any metal in his city, I doubt he has a settler by now, and his production in his main city doesnt look that great. The worst we might see is 2-3 axes. just my opinion.

We ll get iron, but its still very handy to deny Julius copper, if i get your question righ.


More likely if we wait and he has metal we ll see 3 archers plus a couple axes he has built, plus what axes he can whip once he sees hes in a do or die situation. BTS AI at its finest.

I see BARBEERIAN recommends settling a copper city still...
Axes match swords badly , but surely you realize a sword is 33% more efficient at city busting, a critical 33% if i might add as it makes chance favor the attacker.

Plus if no war is declared Julius will want to settle somewhere close to his capital.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

It's early, and your capital's gold has research in high gear. Time to get aggressive. No need to get the iron online ASAP, as long as Caesar doesn't get it, he's little threat. If at all possible, snag the copper with city #3. He'll probably get there first, but considering how harmless he'd be without metal, it's worth a shot.
In other words, settle the iron city on the plains hill, and snag the copper if he's

 

[sigmakan]

In response to BARBEERIAN.

The 2W 1N site will also be a 1-tile jump to his capital(although there is still a river to cross). I just dont think its worth the risk of possibly letting Rome get iron. I think it will take just as long to hook up the copper as it will be to hook up the iron.

I would definately settle coper first, and then see if Julius takes copper with his first settler. If he doesnt, which is definately possible, then I wouldnt even bother building a settler for the copper, instead just wipe Julius out. He'll have maybe 2-3 archers in the capital(since the AIs always send 2 out with their settler). Should be a cake walk with 4-5 swords and maybe 2-3 axes.

Both sites would need 6 road sections to connect to capital, but the iron site can be connected faster with sailing(probably only a few turns though)

 

[Scaphism]

If you want to go Hammer for Hammer with Rome (i.e. a delayed, longer war) I think your cities win.

I liked how Sisiutil just grabbed control and said "Hey this is my game. Screw AH, I'm going for gold!(iron in this case.)" It's the opposite of him letting us debate the settler for 6 pages - he just took over.

I have to vote for the more western site with two fish as well. You can use that time to build yourself a workboat in Moscow to be used by St Pete's and maybe even a barracks. You can grow and you'll be able to whip out 2-3 extra swords. The extra swords from that extra pop should make up a lot of the difference in delaying. Even if you don't wait for the border pop you'll have to spend a lot of worker turns building a mine (4 turns? 6 turns?) and roading between your two cities (10+ turns?).

I think you have a choice between sailing and AH. You need the wheel to connect the iron, but you don't need it to connect iron to your capital if you have sailing - the coast will take care of that. I think it's a poor option though because you'll want a road to carry your swords and axes towards the battlefront.

AH is still a good tech to pick up - Chariots are better fogbusters than axes (sentry and bonuses vs axemen) and will be able to quickly move in and pillage copper before it can be built on, if that's where Caesar ends up.

Don't forget you're going to be dealing with a lot of barbs - won't they start showing up in force the moment Caesar founds his second city? I forget the formula from the Mehmed II game, but don't the barb waves come once all civs on the continent/island have settled 1 extra city? Or something similar.

You can use that time before iron is hooked upto set up your barb defense.

 

[BARBEERIAN]

If you want to go Hammer for Hammer with Rome (i.e. a delayed, longer war) I think your cities win.

He definately wins a delayed longer war, but the war weariness and tech slowdown will benefit the other AI's more than Sisiutil. Quicker earlier wars are much easier to recover from than one where you maybe have to wait around teching for Cats at the expense of beelining more beneficial economic techs.

 

[Maydrock]

Settle the iron city on the plains hill. That will make a great naval yard for you to build your fleet. Don't wipe out the Roman, milk him for everything he's worth. Get second city settled, build SH and GW in capital. Once he builds the copper city, keep him from mining the copper. Once copper city grows to size 2, take it. Rinse and repeat for the whole continent. This allows a small specialized army to control/settle the continent and saves you from having to build 10 or so settlers and you will probably get a few workers to boot. Use the farmed GGs for your naval yard to produce specialized land units and eventually a strong navy. With the GW you won't have to worry about barbs, so even a smaller army needed. Since you already have gold, build the Shwedagon Paya to get to pacifism early, which works well with a small army strat. Once the iron city is on its feet, you can switch production in capital to dedicated wonder building to make uber GP farm/science center. Hmmm?

 

[EEE_BOY]

I have an idea

how about 1 SE to that iron.

let me state the advantage:
1,this is a crab city any way, so i 'll keep it size 1 by working the iron tile only, it produce units fast enough for your current need. late CS irrigation and biology would enable it run 2 scientists or u could use it produce units to the whole empire for this game and spare other cities building improvements.

2, It is strategically near u and Caesar, and save city positions for both 2-fish-iron and 1-crab-iron (in case u haven't found anything usefull in that terra island). it is a front city, quick reinforce. 7 hammer/ turn. quick settle and roading, less barb concern.

3, it secure iron. other city sites required border pop is very risky. Caesar would compete u to that tile and u would fight a culture war before the real war begins.

any thoughts?

 

[sigmakan]

I love how there are so many aproaches to this. <3 Civ

In regards to settler production. It could be blessing to be building a lot of these. There is a sever lack of happiness resources on the island, so stopping growth by building settlers is always a nice option.

I would probably make Rome the GP farm, look at all the floodplains and seafood! Leaving Moscow to be a settler/worker factory possibly. Dunno, just tossing some ideas out there haha

EDIT: I dont think it makes sense to build a crap city for the iron when you can build a very nice Navy-production city instead. At this point, if you build a city by the iron before ceasar does, we'll win the cultural war because there arent any big cultural buildings yet.

 

[Maydrock]

I love how there are so many aproaches to this. <3 Civ

In regards to settler production. It could be blessing to be building a lot of these. There is a sever lack of happiness resources on the island, so stopping growth by building settlers is always a nice option.

I would probably make Rome the GP farm, look at all the floodplains and seafood! Leaving Moscow to be a settler/worker factory possibly. Dunno, just tossing some ideas out there haha

EDIT: I dont think it makes sense to build a crap city for the iron when you can build a very nice Navy-production city instead. At this point, if you build a city by the iron before ceasar does, we'll win the cultural war because there arent any big cultural buildings yet.

I don't think Rome has the production to be NE site. It would make a great science city under Caste civic though. Not to mention it would be awhile before Rome falls as it will be building settlers for us and then siege units would be needed to take it without massive losses (i.e. small army).

To stop growth you don't need to build settlers/workers, just assign more specialists.

 

[CivSetä]

From what I've seen so far, the BtS AI techs more slowly than the Warlords AI, so being isolated might not be as much of a concern as it was in the past.

IMHO in BTS isolated starts are better. You don't have to invest on espionage on early game then, which means more science and more early game wonders. Early rush is really hard, when AI whips walls and defenders.

 

[CivSetä]

I vote for 2 fish city. Go mysticism next and chop monument asap. Later you have plenty of time to buld road while waiting border pop. You want barracks in both cities too, hence you really don't have to hurry. Just make sure to find out when Caesar gets BW, and don't let him connect bronze.

When attacking, have some 50% more troops than before. You probably have to spend two turns in enemy land, which means two more whipped city defenders. So bring at least 10-12 swords to make sure you win. I don't remember if you had aggressive AI checked, it would mean that you need even more units.

 

[EEE_BOY]

if the majority wants to go the 2-fish city, i would quickly chop another settler to settle the gold-pig-wheat city to totally block Caesar.

 

[TheArchduke]

Take the fish city and chop the monument.

Prepare a third city and then start pushing swordsmen out.

 

[kniteowl]

Depending how far Julius's Settler has traveled, I'd get the 2 Fish site, if he's 1 turn away from getting the site before you then the NE Site is the better option.

Assuming I settler the Double fish location, I'd declare war as soon as I have reasonably defendable position, maybe 5 Axes, 1 fortified over the Iron, 2 defending the Double Fish Iron city and 2 on Pillage Duty.

I'd also Build 2 Galleys for a Navy Pillaging War. I'll force Julius to defend inside his city until I can get a fair size stack to take him on while I Settler the rest of the Island at my Leisure.

So Sailing is a relatively Priority Tech, maybe after Wheel, Myst and AH. You're gonna Explore those islands anyways lol

 

[Guardian_PL]

Hi guys, I'm a reader not a writer but hey, I'm on my own at work right now
2fish city please.
I know that it would be nice and cool to spill guts of Jules and show them to the public but really, You have plenty of time before 44 p.n.e Brute-Sisiutil You really need food/production to crank out workers, settlers and swordsmen too. After border pop up You'll have 5? 6 food tiles under control. Before You'll be able to build several swords You'll easily manage to grow. If You'll madly rush&kill Jules it will strain You. I say let him build the second city, justmake sure he won't get this copper to his capital.

As for founding second city as copper city - You realize how huge maintenance will be for that untill You'll connect it to capital and build courthouse? (looong way from now)?

Grow. Be powerful.

 

[AlessioCerci]

1 NW of iron. You cant wait until the border pop. Also get your worker to follow the settler building a road.

 

[sigmakan]

1 NW of iron. You cant wait until the border pop. Also get your worker to follow the settler building a road.

I dont know about that, its a 7-9 turn difference(the time that Wheel is delayed) in when you get it hooked up. I dont think thats going to make or break this game. Look at the date its nearly 3000BC, theres still some time. Sistuli did a great job on getting a settler out fast, lets take advantage of that and build a quality city.

EDIT: In try 1 with peter, copper wasnt hooked up till over 1000 years later(I think around 1400BC?). Just to put things in perspective.

 

[illram]

It kind of sucks that your little island can only realistically sustain about 12-14 good cities.

 

[bonbons]

Long time reader of ALCS, first time poster.

I agree with founding 1NW of the iron and then do a sword rush, before JC has the opportunity to expand. Should be a cakewalk if you can quickly pump out swords with chop'n'whip.