ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[kniteowl]

Now it's down to the Liberalism race, We don't know how far the unknown AI are down the tech tree so I'd take Liberalism as early as possibly just to safe unless you meet the other AIs.

I like popejubal Suggestion of delaying Liberalism for a Expensive Tech BUT only if you know where the other AI are on the tech tree. What you do is research Liberalism until 1 turn before it's finished then switch to another Tech and constantly check the foreign advisor screen to see who's got Education, at the very worst you'll get Nationalism.

But if you decide to race to liberalism instead, I suggest to take Optics first then pick up astronomy as you're free tech, Navel Superiority means a lot on this map and later you can get one of you're GS to light bulb Chemistry and play around with you're Privateers, possibly cut off Gandhi and slow him down long enough in research that you'll leave anyone in the dust while you reach for the stars.

I know you want to try out you're Golden Age with Taj Mahal but I think Having a technological Advance Navy is more important. especially if it gives you Privateers that will slow you're opponents research.

That's not quite precise, because Theocracy still allows your cities to convert to your state religion. It also allows your teammates to spread a religion to you, using missionaries.

But if you have no permanent allies, you can prevent religions from spreading by adopting Theocracy and No State Religion.

Of course, no state religion eliminates the other benefits of Theocracy, so a more precise hammer might be more appropriate.

Cities can only spontaneously convert if they are trade network connected to the holy city. So if you wait before connecting the city to your trade network, and take steps to prevent missionaries from wandering in, you're fine.

More drastically, you can achieve the same result by taking the holy city off the trade network. For a dramatic demonstration of this approach, see DaveMcW's Pilgrimage to Mecca.

Theocracy doesn't work against me when the AI uses it, I just gift them my missionaries and they spread the religion into their cities for me LMAO... I wonder if that's an exploit.

 

[jerVL/kg]

I guess i forgot to ask another question though: is it always the case that a religion will be founded in one of your religion-free cities, if such an option is available?

Actually, yes. The only exception is if your only religion-free city is the capital city. Your capital will never become a holy city unless it is your only city.

If every city has a religion, then the game picks one of your cities with the fewest religions in it. Older cities seem to be preferred over newer ones -- in Sisiutil's case (if Rostov became Hindu before he discovered Taoism) it probably would've been St. Petersburg.

You can create some fairly monstrous holy cities by spreading new religions around to all cities except your holy city. For example, if Sisiutil spreads 2-3 religions to all his cities except Rostov and then discovers Islam, Rostov will most likely become the Islamic holy city as well. Not that I'd recommend doing that.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Actually, yes. The only exception is if your only religion-free city is the capital city. Your capital will never become a holy city unless it is your only city.

If every city has a religion, then the game picks one of your cities with the fewest religions in it. Older cities seem to be preferred over newer ones....

I can't stand it.

 

[Sisiutil]

I know you want to try out you're Golden Age with Taj Mahal but I think Having a technological Advance Navy is more important. especially if it gives you Privateers that will slow you're opponents research.

Kniteowl, we've talked about this before. You're = you are. When it's the possessive, it's your.

Now write it out 100 times on the board and stop irritating the former English teacher.

Good points about the Privateers, another new unit of BtS we can highlight. In my off-line games the AI civs got Frigates pretty quickly and sunk my Privateers, so I think it's a unit you take advantage of with a tech lead--as I'll probably have.

And yes, I was thinking of Astronomy as another possibility from Liberalism. (You know, if it doesn't pop from that goody hut on the northern island... )

 

[kniteowl]

Kniteowl, we've talked about this before. You're = you are. When it's the possessive, it's your.

Now write it out 100 times on the board and stop irritating the former English teacher.

Good points about the Privateers, another new unit of BtS we can highlight. In my off-line games the AI civs got Frigates pretty quickly and sunk my Privateers, so I think it's a unit you take advantage of with a tech lead--as I'll probably have.

And yes, I was thinking of Astronomy as another possibility from Liberalism. (You know, if it doesn't pop from that goody hut on the northern island... )

lol That's what happens when you skip spelling and grammar check while you quickly post a reply on the University computers while trying to make it to your lectures on time lol

 

[cabert]

good round, hanging gardens was a good move. Not stronger than settling IMHO, but denial to the AI is good.

Don't go for cultural, I did already. I want to see a russian space race with labs + national park full of scientists

Spoiler outcome :

it was really easy,
41k score,
can't remember the date (not really early),
no war at all.

About the next round, check for how long you need to work on education.
I would build an academy in ruska before lightbulbing edu (=letting your empire grow in the meantime, for a higher output of the GS). You can certainly get something worthwhile as free tech. constitution would be good IMHO.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Ok, my few words.
Firstly, as usual - GA! You'll have dozens of GP, now the thing - burn first guy, start GA. Now You can switch civics like crazy, even to get more diplo bonus from other civs. Also, +100% GPP bonus = GP burned on GA will pay somewhat itself (especially that You have two GPP cities). THEN build Taj Mahal, not the other way around. Personally I'd try to use three GP on two GA at once, and finish it with Taj, what would let me save some of them on last one GA much, much later in the game.

Astronomy
I know, lack of Colossus's bonus is a pain but You're one step closer to Privateers - and boy how sweet it is to rule the seas with them, scoring 30=50gold per turn and starving other nations to death

 

[EEE_BOY]

spend 1 GS on education and time it to research it for 6 turns(u have 8 turns for optics, 14 turns until next GS) and leave about 1800 bearkers for GS by accumulating gold.

since u have the pyramid for representation, there is no need to go for constitution by taking nationalism as free tech. I would like to see how effective Privateers are, and u have the prerequesite for astronomy.

tech: optics --> part of education --> libralism(astronomy)-- >nationalism(Taj M)--> gunpowder --> 1GS for PP -->1GS for chemstry (trade engineering)-->slowly research SM by accumulating gold --> fast research and 1GS for Physics--> free GS (+1 GS if u can) for biology--> steel( iron work)--> constitution (probably trade with Ghandi) --> demo (for SoL)
u can research steel before SM depending on your rate of GS.

bribing india to war with japan is risky. since the indian can produce maceman now, and will comsume japan then become a super power.

the trade with Mao is good though.



settle the iron- fish city on indian-japanese continent and make colony as soon as possible. it drains yoour treasury every turn. u could gifting your colony obsolete units after u produce your brand-new army. settle your horse city as soon as possible.

switch to caste system at the beginning of the golden age. stay in OR until the end of your first golden age, hammer bonus help u complete most of buildings.

 

[Guardian_PL]

As for civics I'd recommend to run OR only to finish most important buildings (it is a bit expensive), then go for Pacifism during GA. You'll get +350% GPP And don't worry about mixing GPP - every GP will find it's use, and GA bonus to commerce and production will grant You Liberalism, Nationalism and anything else You want, Mr Philosophical

 

[Scarredroman]

Did you finish the Temple of Artemis or did someone else get it?

It's not like an aggressive civ to declare war and not send loads of units at you. What's Tokugawa waiting for? The way his archer reacted suggests he was after that iron. Your trireme has not run into any Japanese ships, has it? It's been an easy war for you to fight, hitherto.

 

[Jay]

Maybe the AI is still inept at continental invasions and firaxis lied?

On one of my BtS games Stalin invaded sitting bull pretty well across continents taking two cities and vassilizaing and also ive been attacked by sea many times. Dam Navy wars are so cool now they can happen.

Although the above happened with agressive AI on as i heard it was the new way to play Sisiutil: Surely youve read about all this hype on Agressive AI around the site? whats your thoughts on it? will you be using it in future games you think?

If anyone hasnt read this yet i advise you to, there is some very interesting things said here including the major fact that normal AI is now more peaceful!

Blakes say on Agressive AI

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Again, you're playing much better this round than in your previous rounds, which I considered somewhat lousy. But this is a well-played peace game indeed (Romans? Aren't they just a legend?).

Don't worry too much about lacking workers. Russia ran serfdom a long time in reality because they lacked workers too. And you don't really need all those improvements until the industrial age when you have the hapiness and health to support all the population anyway.

One thing to watch for is trading too much with Ghandi. I am usually not in favour of trading with tech leaders, and if he becomes too ahead, bribing other civs to slow him down afterwards may result in Ghandi owning a lot of vassals, which may turn even uglier if he tries diplomatic.

Too early to tell victory conditions, but if you do it right, it looks like a blazing fast space race. Research institutes, 3 golden ages in a row late-game, 4 if you get enough for the final one through the national park (each 15 turns in length)...

 

[rodneysandy]

Is the Apostolic Palace still available? If so, I suggest getting it toute de suite. Like the UN it is better to controll it rather than some other Civ.

I agree with the people advocating Chem and Astro for Privateers as soon as possible. You've probably used them before in your off line games but if you really strong it you will really cause some agro for all and sundry plus you can stop spies because they can only get to you by sea.

As for spies I've found that I lose far too many so my remedy was to wait untill I could knock them out on the cheap and send them in mob handed.

Excellent game so far, i'm sure that in such a strong position you can explore all the options and still win in a canter.

 

[cabert]

Is the Apostolic Palace still available? If so, I suggest getting it toute de suite. Like the UN it is better to controll it rather than some other Civ.

Agreed!
You have spread hinduism to most of your cities, and you should be in a good position to win the elections!
You could even want to spread the faith to china (he doesn't know gandhi, so he cannot vote for him, can he?)

 

[BARBEERIAN]

I think this next round you should spend heading towards Privateers. Given that you're running an SE your raw commerce won't be that powerful so you won't have a lot of gold in the treasury for upgrades and stuff, so a large scale early Privateer raid could easily net you 3000 total gold coins when it's all said and done. Oh, and it's fun as hell too =)

I'd prepare by hitting Paper and Education (so if you see an AI getting too close to liberalism you can snag it first). Then tech Guilds first, then Engineering and Gunpowder in any order.

Then there's 2 ways you could go about hitting up Privateers. One way is faster initially, but might die off faster. The other is slower but stronger.

Option A:
Go Liberalism next, and nab Astronomy with it. Hit Chemistry next then set any coastal with spare hammers to build Privateers in pairs (or a group of three for ones that will be blockading capitals).

Option B:
Go Chemistry first and then use Liberalism on Steel and start building drydocks in all your coastals that will be making Privateers. Reseach Astronomy while the drydocks come online, then start pumping out Privateers with an extra promotion and twice as fast.

I'd go for Option B if you can win the Liberalism race guaranteed. Since the AI does tech slower in BtS it's not very hard to hold out for an extra tech or two. The various Liberalism gambits overall seem much easier (while the Oracle gambits are harder) and I think you can do it no problem.

Now as far as Privateer strategy goes:

-Always send them out in pairs (or groups of three for 'major' blockades). They will be attacked on sight by any naval vessel that sees them, so a lone privateer can easily die even to a few caravels on it's way to a blockade. Once your in blockade mode the AI will almost guaranteed build up a force of Caravels or Galleons and wait till it has 4/5 to attack. Needless to say, the odds of a pair of Privateers surviving is much higher (and usually leads to plenty of free xp for GG's and promotions).

-Aim for clusters of large cities first, then any location where you can blockade multiple cities. Generally blockading 3 size 5 cities will get you more gold than blockading one size 15 city that isn't a capital. On that map there seem to be all kinds of clusters of 3+ city blockades just begging for a little pirate action.

-When you arrive at a blockade location, set 1 unit to blockade and the other to sentry (or sleep until you've seen Frigates). Using multiple vessels to blockade from the same tile has no effect, the extra ship is there only for added protection. Keep an eye out for frigates, and if you see them run away. Reassign the Privateers blockading a civ with frigates to target non-Frigate civs to get the maximum piracy lifespan for each ship.

-Once one of your groups has begun a blockade you can click on it to see exactly which tiles it's blockading. You only need to be touching a single tile that's adjacent to a city to steal gold from it (not every single coastal tile). The blockade area is very large, and very 'malleable' along the coastline. Play around with a few different positions to get the best blockade location for each Pirate group. You can even blockade tiles on the other side of a small Isthmus from your ships so check out all the possibilities.

-Always blockade from coastal tiles. You will be attacked by stacks of boats, so you might as well take the extra defense. For promotions I like to promote one in the pair to be a medic, the other with first strikes so it handles those little caravel stacks without taking as much damage.

Overall you can easily rake in 100+ raw gold per turn with 10 Privateer groups. An average blockaded city is 2-4 gold per CITY per TURN. I've seen powerhouse cities give us much as 12 gold. On big'n'small you'll have no problems getting 3 cities per blockade, so each pair can easily make 6-12 gold per turn from their blockade. Some really juicy spots with 4 cities including a capital might net you as much as 20-30 gold per turn by itself. All in all you'll be able to either jack up your sliders or swim in gold coins!

 

[Guardian_PL]

For nice privateering it would be good to get Steel - drydocks will go even with Expansionist health bonus, they offer +4XP and, most importantly, +50% faster naval units production time

As for tactics, You'll check for Yourself . But I've found that to beat Frigates one has to have huuuge stacks of privateers and/or have them experienced - Combat 3 Privateer is nearly as powerful as Frigate.

 

[Sisiutil]

Privateers sound like a lot of fun, and would make a lot of sense on this map. I like Barbeerian's Option B, though my only concern is it might give me stronger Privateers at the expense of their lifespan. I'll see how it goes.

Yo ho ho, a pirate's life for me...

(Too bad there's no pirate smilie, but there is this guy:

Now what does that tell you?)

 

[LlamaCat]

I highly recommend the privateers as well. don't forget they also count toward great general appearance and this can almost be considered an exploit in some games; you never have to go to war to get a general.

 

[GeneralGab]

Yep, privateers are fun. You can get quite a lot of gold per turn using them; I've gotten about 20 gpt, but I saw someone say they'd gotten almost 80 gpt. The only thing negative about this is that the AI seems to go on a boat-building rampage afterwards, at least in my games. This can be bad if you're planning a naval invasion later on. In one game, where I had blockaded the Koreans for several turns (I had a nice tech lead on Wang Kon, who was isolated on an island), once they got frigates, they kept on building them. I counted 45 frigates (with my espionage points I could see all his land) for Wang Kon, and that's on a small map.

 

[slobberinbear]

I agree with Cabert: you need the Apostolic Palace, if for no other reason that Gandhi doesn't sneak by a religious victory on you, since he's so missionary-happy. This happened to me in an offline game -- I wasn't careful and by capturing a city whose religion was the same as the palace owner, I accidentally triggered the Religious Victory vote and, of course, lost the game.

The palace is very handy to deal with aggressors like Toku and Mao, once you have other civs you can force to the table.

Get a few caravels with missionaries and spread the Word around to everyone you can. You now have a means to control wars and trade between nations. This seems to be a great way for you to maintain the balance of power while pursuing a space victory, and frankly, since the Palace is valid until Mass Media, it has a much longer shelf life than the U.N.