ALC Game 17, Take 2: Russia/Peter (BtS)

[Maestro_Innit]

I second that - Hanging Gardens is one of my faves

 

[GeneralGab]

Don't forget courthouses: they give +2 espionage points. If you want to build up a spy point lead over others, the sooner you get EP-producing buildings, the better.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Yeesh, what a mess. I do like the simplified listing of my own excess resources at the top, that's an improvement, but everything else is clear as mud. It's easiest at the right, where the active trades are listed. That part I get. I also understand (though it took awhile) that the Import column indicates that Tokugawa has 1 gold per turn to trade, so maybe I should renegotiate my fish-for-GPT deal with him. And I sort of understand that Gandhi is willing to trade rice and incense to me, though why I should care what he won't trade--especially stuff he's already trading to me, like cows--is beyond me. I guess that's for corporations, later on, when you get all capitalistic and try to corner the market on a particular resource.

The Export column, however, drives me batty. So... this is what they're willing to take from me? But do I have more than one of those things to offer them? Oh, I guess I gotta look up top. And "Won't trade" is stuff I have that they won't take from me? Again, because they're already getting it from me? Whatever.

I liked being able to click on a civ in the old screen and seeing exactly what resources I had that they didn't. Simple. Call me an old-fashioned curmudgeon, but I think this screen tries to do too much. And while we're on the topic, I don't like seeing all the irrelevant resources that neither of us will trade because we both already have it in the diplomatic screen, either. I guess it's necessary for corporations, but for most of the game, it's just confusing. "What? Gandhi won't trade me gold? But we're friendly! Gandhi, you miserly weasel! Prepare the Galleys, this means... oh. I already have gold? Never mind..."

On the Export column, it lists what they want, and what they don't want. Pre-corporations, they'll want resources they don't have access to. They won't want resources they already have access to. For example, Ghandi doesn't need a second gold resource, given that all he needs is one for the happiness bonus. Now, if he had Civilized Jewelers, he'd need more gold than just the one he's getting from you, so he'd accept more.

On the Import column, it lists what he's willing to trade, and what he isn't. Obviously, they'll be willing to trade excess resources, while unwilling to trade resources they only has one of. Pre corporations, they also won't be willing to trade resources you already have access to. It gets a bit odd when you import resources: the Civ you're importing the resource from won't list it in the "won't trade" column unless it doesn't have anymore to trade.

That's why Ghandi isn't willing to trade cows anymore: he only had one extra. If he had excess cows, it wouldn't appear on the "won't trade" column, since you're importing them.

Here's the cool thing about the new resource screen: The trade screen will tell you exactly what resources a Civ has. For example, you can tell that Mao has the following resources: Marble, Clams, Fish, and Deer. You can also tell that he has extra deer for trade. You know he doesn't have cows, because it doesn't show up on the "won't import" column. If he had cows, it would be there, since you're importing them.

 

[NaZdReG]

scaphism I have to disagree about settling the engineer. worst case scenario would be to burn it on machinery. but how many settled turns would it take to make back that many beakers? its almost never worth it to settle anymore. even artists and prophets can be burned for a golden age which is always a good thing..

NaZ

 

[Izipo]

scaphism I have to disagree about settling the engineer. worst case scenario would be to burn it on machinery. but how many settled turns would it take to make back that many beakers? its almost never worth it to settle anymore. even artists and prophets can be burned for a golden age which is always a good thing..

NaZ

Hold the mustard there.
Granted, bulbing machinery is very tempting at the moment.
But, we're in for a long game and running Rep, so a settled engineer that soon is quite worthy in the long run IMHO. (If somebody wants to do the calculations...).
Burning him for a GA at this point would be pointless.

Great game, btw.

 

[LlamaCat]

looks like a fun game so far. My hunch is that you seem to be getting a little wonder-happy, which I am guilty of all the time. This is the point where if I was playing I would question that about myself. But if others here who really know what they are talking about advocate them, go for it. the MoM is probably the most important, I agree the golden ages are key here in this expansion.

also back to the espionage stuff - this is not a huge deal right now with only +4 espionage points, but I would recommend just keeping the weights even for all leaders for a good while. I've found if you get too far behind any one leader in the game, it's very hard to catch up unless you spy bomb them, and that would feel like a wasted great spy to do that.

Conversely, it's fairly easy to stay on pace with their espionage with just courthouses and a couple intelligence agencies or spy specialists later.

then in the mid or late game, I like to switch the weights to one or two key enemies for a limited number of turns, to get enough points to see in their cities or run a few key missions. then go back to even weights.

 

[slobberinbear]

On a medium-term warmonger note, it may be worth your while to ramp up your economy and take out Toku with Gandhi's help. Let's face it, it's inevitable that samurais will be storming either you or our culture-loving friend of fasting.

Since you're pursuing the Trireme quest anyway, why not build up naval superiority (since you're planning on teching along the naval line anyway) and see about putting a muzzle on that Shogun wannabe? With you and Gandhi tech trading a bit, you can probably also beat Toku to gunpowder units and leapfrog his samurai technologically.

My dream round would be you securing another happiness resource or two, getting your horses, and start to ramp up the war machine again to deal with Toku.

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

On a medium-term warmonger note, it may be worth your while to ramp up your economy and take out Toku with Gandhi's help. Let's face it, it's inevitable that samurais will be storming either you or our culture-loving friend of fasting.

Since you're pursuing the Trireme quest anyway, why not build up naval superiority (since you're planning on teching along the naval line anyway) and see about putting a muzzle on that Shogun wannabe? With you and Gandhi tech trading a bit, you can probably also beat Toku to gunpowder units and leapfrog his samurai technologically.

My dream round would be you securing another happiness resource or two, getting your horses, and start to ramp up the war machine again to deal with Toku.

I don't like the distance cost at this point, and Gandhi obviously needs something to keep him busy, so I wouldn't do much but maybe pillage with the navy a little bit and blockade him. You want Gandhi to get scuffed up, but you don't want him getting hit too hard, and clamping down on Toku's trade and sea tiles will help him out without being too expensive...or too helpful. Toku's worthless for everything, so it's not like we're ever going to regret the resulting diplo demerit anyways, and it'll make Gandhi even friendlier...

Otherwise, rush the MoM, get the fur, REX the glorious mother island of the Russian nation, build a military and cities worthy of her glory, and enjoy a spot of vodka in Mother Russia's honor!

 

[facistal]

In regards to burning that GE, I think that you need to actually look at your short and mid-term goals here.

I think you should either settle or save him, but I think this is the main point here: If you burn him on Machinery, is that going to actually speed up an invaision of Toku?

Machinery rocks as do Macemen and Crossbowmen, but are you in any position to invade? Do you want to invade? I don't think so. You have a lot of building to do, and I think that you will almost certainly leave Toku in the dust in tech. Why push yourself and give up long term benefits to accelerate a plan you never really had. Build Settlers, infrastructure and even wonders. the MoM, The Parthenon and the Paya which is accelerated by gold would all be useful, and you might easily build them all without the GE.

In any event, I think that you can probably just research Machinery in due course, after Music and CS.

 

[Porphyrius]

Fellow warmongers of the clan of the ice-tearing mace stay your mighty hand for a moment and let us consider the rewards of our har "labor", our loot and booty.
This is BTS and a multi-continent map, the best we can expect from an invasion is making a vassal colony in the place of an opponent plus maybe 1-2 cities of our own. Thus, the spoils of warmongering are significantly less than the usual and perhaps weight shoul be put more on research and naval superiority.

scaphism I have to disagree about settling the engineer. worst case scenario would be to burn it on machinery. but how many settled turns would it take to make back that many beakers? its almost never worth it to settle anymore. even artists and prophets can be burned for a golden age which is always a good thing..

NaZ

It would take with very conservative estimations less than 150 turns with just an academy in Ruska. If we beeline universities and oxford this will likely be closer to 100-120 turns. Plus there is the non minor issue of those +3 per turn.
In fact if some use of GP is weakened in BTS i feel its bulbing. Getting a single tech can no longer give you much of a distinct military advantage. In games where one uses relatively few cities to get most research scream for settling GP/academies especially with representation.

I dont recomend bulbing machinery there are better uses. I wouldnt even tech to it right after CS frankly.

On a related thought even if golden ages are beefed in BTS and contribute in virtualy any situation including SE, their strongest point remains the bost. So they are better started later in game with large cities and while attempting a majoe war preparation or the spaceship building.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

The ideal result would be to trade civil service for machinery and a DoW on Toku to someone. Would that be possible?

 

[Scarredroman]

Gandhi likes founding religions, building temples, monasteries and missionaries; using his fast workers to link up everything; and shrines.

Tokugawa likes to get his samurai, build them and go on a rampage.

A war between the two is inevitable and Gandhi gets wiped out. Peter has to stop Tokugawa from being able to build up his war machine.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

You wouldn't say no to Gandhi being slightly rampaged upon though would you. Then Peter can appear on the horizon in his galleys and save the day. Gandhi can be dangerous if he is left alone for too long.

 

[Scarredroman]

You wouldn't say no to Gandhi being slightly rampaged upon though would you. Then Peter can appear on the horizon in his galleys and save the day. Gandhi can be dangerous if he is left alone for too long.

Roll up Toku as he rolls up Gandhi. Gandhi's not going to be given any chance to spread too far. I think Sisiutil plans to found cities that cut his northern expansion off. Peter plans to have those religious cities all for his ownsome. He's already got a scout who can map all of India in situ.

 

[ds61514]

A war between the two is inevitable and Gandhi gets wiped out. Peter has to stop Tokugawa from being able to build up his war machine.

Actually....

Spoiler :

Toku has enough on his hands. He's gonna go after someone, whether you or Gandhi. Fortify your southwest coast

 

[Scaphism]

Re: settling vs. buring the GE

First of all, I don't know who decided that settling a GE is not worth it anymore. If this is a widely held idea I would (genuinely) like to see some authoritative threads supporting it.

I do know that Peter is Philosophical and is running the Pyramids for Representation. There will be a lot more GPs coming soon, in rapid succession, and if there's a temptation to settle any of them (and get the Rep bonus) it's best to settle ASAP. Later GPs can be used on golden ages or crucial lightbulbs.

I don't think we're anywere near going to war right now. Machinery is not a crucial tech - we don't need crossbows nor watermills/windmills in the next ~30 rounds. No other civ we're in contact with has a tech we "must have" that machinery would be perfect trade bait. Typically you want to get 2 or even 3 big techs (or a sizable pile of gold) for a big tech you've bulbed.

All of the hammers in the near future are spoken for - workers, settlers, infrastructure, and normal military. We don't need crossbows to defend against Tokugawa - normal military buildup should be enough to deter (or push him towards Ghandi) and if not, Sisiutil has a sizable force of Triemes to sink Toku's galleys.

I also think Sisiutil is starting to get a bit wonder happy and my instinct says to curb that. Settle the GE, let those beakers and hammers work and get accumulated by the various modifiers you have. Those extra hammers in whichever city will allow it to build +% science and production buildings that much faster which will give you even more rounds with more modifiers. Particularly in Ruska, if it's going to be the GP farm. It will need extra hammers and will need to build plenty of infrastructure buildings. It doesn't have a ton of high hammer tiles to work in the first place, and not having to sacrifice pop to work those tiles means it can keep focusing on its primarly goal. It becomes even more important if you switch to Caste System - then you can't rely on to build your infrastructure.

The more I think about it the more I think settling is a strong move. That's half the reason why you used your first GE to rush the Pyramids.

 

[facistal]

Settle Settle Settle

 

[Welnic]

The State of the World, 370 AD

...
Okay, here's my least favourite change in BtS, the very confusing Resources screen:
...
Yeesh, what a mess. I do like the simplified listing of my own excess resources at the top, that's an improvement, but everything else is clear as mud. It's easiest at the right, where the active trades are listed. That part I get. I also understand (though it took awhile) that the Import column indicates that Tokugawa has 1 gold per turn to trade, so maybe I should renegotiate my fish-for-GPT deal with him. And I sort of understand that Gandhi is willing to trade rice and incense to me, though why I should care what he won't trade--especially stuff he's already trading to me, like cows--is beyond me. I guess that's for corporations, later on, when you get all capitalistic and try to corner the market on a particular resource.

The Export column, however, drives me batty. So... this is what they're willing to take from me? But do I have more than one of those things to offer them? Oh, I guess I gotta look up top. And "Won't trade" is stuff I have that they won't take from me? Again, because they're already getting it from me? Whatever.

I liked being able to click on a civ in the old screen and seeing exactly what resources I had that they didn't. Simple. Call me an old-fashioned curmudgeon, but I think this screen tries to do too much. And while we're on the topic, I don't like seeing all the irrelevant resources that neither of us will trade because we both already have it in the diplomatic screen, either. I guess it's necessary for corporations, but for most of the game, it's just confusing. "What? Gandhi won't trade me gold? But we're friendly! Gandhi, you miserly weasel! Prepare the Galleys, this means... oh. I already have gold? Never mind..."

Maybe I just need to get used to it.
...

The problem isn't with the screen, it is that with BTS you can trade for a resource that you already have. This screen was in the HOF mod for vanilla and warlords and it was way easier to understand what was going on than the stock tech screen. It's the additional complication from the extra possible trading that has strained the interface, but I think the old one would not have handled it at all.

 

[Kev]

I don't see there being a big downside to Toku going after the G man. Gandhi is a threat to pull way ahead in tech and/or start to culture himself into a winnable position, and a stream of Japanese soldiers attacking/pillaging could be a nice check on that. With a nice tech lead and a friend willing to forward a resource if needed, I don't think Gandhi would be in danger of losing too much. In fact, I'd almost worry more about Gandhi turning the tables and gaining territory and getting stronger. The Indian can be OK at war, but given Toku's Aggressive/Protective natures (he's still got them both in BTS?) I don't fear that.

I would not advocate going in and invading Toku either. Again, his forces would be a pain to dislodge - especially if he can get to longbows - and the overall benefit would not be so great in my estimation. I'd also fear the culture-happy Gandhi moving into vacated territory and getting stronger as a result. Let Toku have his territory and let Gandhi deal with him. If Gandhi asks for help, go ahead and start a false war and get some ships to the area (and past the territory to see what's what out there).

With this in mind, I agree with others who say NOT to burn the Engineer on Machinery. I would hope that we might get Civil Service on board and then get a scientist for some popping and then have plenty of trade bait to get Machinery along the way. Who knows - one of the other two civs you meet could be nice for trading as well.

Funny, but with my thoughts on allowing Toku to pester Gandhi it actually could leave the Chinese as a possible invasion target. A city by the wines might be a nice launching pad - though the distance is greater and probably not plausible in the near future. Oh well, something to think about.

 

[slaze]

I like the engineer burn on the Notre Dame myself, although that takes engineering.